will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently?

Andrew Ness wrote:
 > "Justin Samuels" <viaong1.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
 > news:CX95e.33899$f%4.25210@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
   >>>
   >>> to answer the question, no. how do you kill off a primal force of
   >>> the universe? a force described as life itself?
   >>>
   >>>
  >> Of course, outside the Xbooks there's never been proof the Phoenix
  >> is that necessary to the universe.

Well, Galactus has said so, and he tends to know such things. He refered to
her as a cosmic avatar.

 > Wasn't there an Oblivion kicking around as well? Surely that's more
 > of an opposite to Eternity?
 > Don't recall ever seeing 'Life' though.

There are four "big" conceptual entities in the MU

Eternity - The embodiment of all life in the universe
Death - The antithesis of all life anywhere
Infinity - The embodiment of all that has been or will ever be - (Agents -
Eon/Epoch and Quasar)
Oblivion - The antithesis of all existence (Agent - The Anomaly and
Maelstrom)

 > Given that the Phoenix is regarded universally as a force of
 > destruction (death bringer, no?)

At one extreme yes, she's the top of the life related "food chain" and can
"starve" other life forms if her power is used carelessly.

 > that's one _dark_ interpretation of
 > life, but one that could stand up. After all without life there's no
 > death. Death requires the pre-existence of life. Life is literally
 > the bringer of Death. Life on earth could certainly be seen as
 > destructive to the planet's equilibrium, and if humanity reaches the
 > stars, there's no telling what damage 'life' could wreak.

This was addressed in Excalibur. The Phoenix is the embodiment of life, but
that can mean all life EVER. When Rachel used her powers at their most
powerdul, it was pointed out by Galactus that she is taking that life energy
from the future, preventing some life in the future from existing.

 > In answer to the original question: Marvel have a major problem on
 > their hands with this one. On the one hand they can't permanently
 > kill off the Phoenix force (entity or whatever) since Jean/Phoenix is
 > one of the original X-Men (and in the films) and more importantly a
 > saleable commodity. On the other hand, Phoenix demonstrates power
 > levels so high that there really is nothing interesting left to be
 > done with the character.
 > Excalibur got away with having Phoenix around by being totally daft
 > most of the time. Whenever she's been in the X-Men full-time, the
 > rest of the team look sort of pointless. So excuses have to be made
 > to 'limit' her or have her go off alone or whatever.
 > So no, they won't kill off the Phoenix force permanently (clue is in
 > the question really) but they might just wish they could.

I liked the limits that Alan davis gave Rachel. Tap into the cosmic too much
and face the prospect that you've doomed some form of sentient life in the
future.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

Rob Kerr wrote:
 > "Justin Samuels" <viaong1 DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
 > news:CX95e.33899$f%4.25210@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
  >> Of course, outside the Xbooks there's never been proof the Phoenix is
  >> that necessary to the universe. And it isn't life itself. Eternity
  >> is the embodiment of the universe, and Death is his polary opposite.
 >
 > Though there is a difference between maintaining that you are the
 > embodiment of life (Phoenix) and that you are the embodiment of
 > everything (Eternity). I don't see that there's a conflict there.
 > Phoenix could quite easily be an aspect of Eternity.

I don't have a problem with that.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

Mike wrote:
  >> She first made contact with the Phoenix when she acquired the
  >> holemapthic matrix crystal in X-Men 199. We found out that the time
  >> travel wasn't the Phoenix, that was Rachel's own mutant power.
 >
 >
 >
 > No, projecting her astral form through time is her mutant
 > power...time-travelling physically was because she tapped into the
 > Phoenix.

D'oh! Thanks for the correction.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

~consul <consul DeleteThis @INVALIDdolphins-cove.com> wrote on 07 huhti 2005:

 > Here we go again! This arguement runs in cycles doesn't it?

Dude, it's about the Phoenix Force. Of course it runs in cycles.

--
Samy Merchi | samy DeleteThis @iki.fi | <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.iki.fi/samy" target="_blank">http://www.iki.fi/samy</a> | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

Andrew Ness wrote:
 > "Justin Samuels" <viaong1.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
 > news:CX95e.33899$f%4.25210@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
 >
   >>>to answer the question, no. how do you kill off a primal force of the
   >>>universe? a force described as life itself?
   >>>
   >>>
  >>
  >>Of course, outside the Xbooks there's never been proof the Phoenix is that
  >>necessary to the universe. And it isn't life itself. Eternity is the
  >>embodiment of the universe, and Death is his polary opposite.
  >>
  >>When the Phoenix entity calls itself life incarnate, Jean says, "No,
  >>you're not."
 >
 >
 > Wasn't there an Oblivion kicking around as well? Surely that's more of an
 > opposite to Eternity?
 > Don't recall ever seeing 'Life' though.
 > Given that the Phoenix is regarded universally as a force of destruction
 > (death bringer, no?) that's one _dark_ interpretation of life, but one that
 > could stand up. After all without life there's no death. Death requires the
 > pre-existence of life. Life is literally the bringer of Death. Life on earth
 > could certainly be seen as destructive to the planet's equilibrium, and if
 > humanity reaches the stars, there's no telling what damage 'life' could
 > wreak.
 > On the other hand, that's clearly crazy talk and unless Thanos is editing
 > the X-Books all of a sudden, clearly not the intended interpretation.
 >
 > In answer to the original question: Marvel have a major problem on their
 > hands with this one. On the one hand they can't permanently kill off the
 > Phoenix force (entity or whatever) since Jean/Phoenix is one of the original
 > X-Men (and in the films) and more importantly a saleable commodity. On the
 > other hand, Phoenix demonstrates power levels so high that there really is
 > nothing interesting left to be done with the character.
 > Excalibur got away with having Phoenix around by being totally daft most of
 > the time. Whenever she's been in the X-Men full-time, the rest of the team
 > look sort of pointless. So excuses have to be made to 'limit' her or have
 > her go off alone or whatever.
 > So no, they won't kill off the Phoenix force permanently (clue is in the
 > question really) but they might just wish they could.
 >
 > Nessy
 >
 >


This is taken from Variety, the source of news for the Film Industry

"New life for Famke in 'X-Men 3'
Jean Grey returns to trilogy

By Michael Fleming

Though her "X-Men" character Jean Grey was killed off to save her fellow
mutants in the last film, Famke Janssen has signed a deal to return for
20th Century Fox and Marvel Entertainment's "X-Men 3," to be directed by
Matthew Vaughn.

As expected, Hugh Jackman has made a deal to return as Wolverine, and
Halle Berry, Ian McKellen and Patrick Stewart are moving the same way
for a film to shoot this summer. A release date of May 26, 2006, is planned.

The demise of Janssen's psychic character in the last go-around will not
be ignored, as she will this time evolve into a character called the
Phoenix."


I know there would never kill off Phoenix/Jean, as she is perhaps the
most marketable X-Man behind Wolverine/Logan. However, they just might
get rid of the Phoenix force ,and go back to Jean evolving to Phoenix.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

Brian Doyle wrote:


 > I liked the limits that Alan davis gave Rachel. Tap into the cosmic too much
 > and face the prospect that you've doomed some form of sentient life in the
 > future.
 >
 >

Alan also used this to get rid of the conciousness of the Phoenix force.
Rachel had the Phoenix power, and she was bound by said limits.

But she was still pretty powerful.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

~consul wrote:

 > Aaron Forever wrote:
 >
  >> "Justin Samuels" <viaong1.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
  >>
   >>> My question is would the Endsong permanently kill of the force, leaving
   >>> us with a Phoenix/Jean that dresses as Phoenix, displays high range
   >>> powers, and effect, but has no alien force?
  >>
  >> well, no. because as i understand it, it wasn't the Phoenix force that
  >> sought her out before in Morrison's run, she just sort of evolved into
  >> it,
  >> as if she were destined to anyway as a natural extension of her
  >> powers. the
  >> fact that they've brought the force back as an entity of it's own
  >> seems kind
  >> of at odds with the glossing over of it being a seperate entity that
  >> went on
  >> in Morrison's run.
 >
 >
 > Here we go again! This arguement runs in cycles doesn't it? As _i_
 > see it, Jean didn't evolve into the PF. The PF has always existed as an
 > entity throughout the ages, never to take a corporeal body. For reasons
 > unknown, maybe because it finally wanted to have a body, it found one in
 > Jean to inhabit, to test the waters. Why Jean? Maybe because she was
 > growing so powerful in her tk/tp that the PF saw something it liked.
 > The bond with the PF amps her powers to new levels. Pyscho, out of
 > control, stuff ensues, she dies.
 > PF goes about the netherspace to frolic, wary of the possibility of
 > Nerom rising up!

Except the question wasn't how I see it, how you see, or how Aaron sees
it. The question is, what will Marvel do. This is taken from Variety,
the film news magazine.New life for Famke in 'X-Men 3'
Jean Grey returns to trilogy

"By Michael Fleming

Though her "X-Men" character Jean Grey was killed off to save her fellow
mutants in the last film, Famke Janssen has signed a deal to return for
20th Century Fox and Marvel Entertainment's "X-Men 3," to be directed by
Matthew Vaughn.

As expected, Hugh Jackman has made a deal to return as Wolverine, and
Halle Berry, Ian McKellen and Patrick Stewart are moving the same way
for a film to shoot this summer. A release date of May 26, 2006, is planned.

The demise of Janssen's psychic character in the last go-around will not
be ignored, as she will this time evolve into a character called the
Phoenix."

The movie is having Jean evolve into the Phoenix. I was wondering would
the comics change their explanation, as Marvel adapts movie continuity
to the mainstream X-Men and Spider Man titles.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

"Justin Samuels" <viaong1.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:E7x4e.29086$f%4.16035@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
 > Does anyone here think that the Phoenix force will be killed permanently?

I only hope so. And since hope is a lie (J. Michael Straczynski, "Midnight
Nation"), I'd have to say it's unlikely. It's a shame. It's a hollow,
purpose-killing concept, totally inappropriate for the X-Verse, and if I
recall the story correctly, wasn't even supposed to exist in the first
place.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

"Justin Samuels" <viaong1 DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Kgj5e.29678$UW6.1224@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
 > Andrew Ness wrote:
  > > "Justin Samuels" <viaong1 DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
  > > news:CX95e.33899$f%4.25210@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
  > >
   > >>>to answer the question, no. how do you kill off a primal force of the
   > >>>universe? a force described as life itself?
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>
   > >>Of course, outside the Xbooks there's never been proof the Phoenix is
that
   > >>necessary to the universe. And it isn't life itself. Eternity is the
   > >>embodiment of the universe, and Death is his polary opposite.
   > >>
   > >>When the Phoenix entity calls itself life incarnate, Jean says, "No,
   > >>you're not."
  > >
  > >
  > > Wasn't there an Oblivion kicking around as well? Surely that's more of
an
  > > opposite to Eternity?
  > > Don't recall ever seeing 'Life' though.
  > > Given that the Phoenix is regarded universally as a force of destruction
  > > (death bringer, no?) that's one _dark_ interpretation of life, but one
that
  > > could stand up. After all without life there's no death. Death requires
the
  > > pre-existence of life. Life is literally the bringer of Death. Life on
earth
  > > could certainly be seen as destructive to the planet's equilibrium, and
if
  > > humanity reaches the stars, there's no telling what damage 'life' could
  > > wreak.
  > > On the other hand, that's clearly crazy talk and unless Thanos is
editing
  > > the X-Books all of a sudden, clearly not the intended interpretation.
  > >
  > > In answer to the original question: Marvel have a major problem on their
  > > hands with this one. On the one hand they can't permanently kill off the
  > > Phoenix force (entity or whatever) since Jean/Phoenix is one of the
original
  > > X-Men (and in the films) and more importantly a saleable commodity. On
the
  > > other hand, Phoenix demonstrates power levels so high that there really
is
  > > nothing interesting left to be done with the character.
  > > Excalibur got away with having Phoenix around by being totally daft most
of
  > > the time. Whenever she's been in the X-Men full-time, the rest of the
team
  > > look sort of pointless. So excuses have to be made to 'limit' her or
have
  > > her go off alone or whatever.
  > > So no, they won't kill off the Phoenix force permanently (clue is in the
  > > question really) but they might just wish they could.
  > >
  > > Nessy
  > >
  > >
 >
 >
 > This is taken from Variety, the source of news for the Film Industry
 >
 > "New life for Famke in 'X-Men 3'
 > Jean Grey returns to trilogy
 >
 > By Michael Fleming
 >
 > Though her "X-Men" character Jean Grey was killed off to save her fellow
 > mutants in the last film, Famke Janssen has signed a deal to return for
 > 20th Century Fox and Marvel Entertainment's "X-Men 3," to be directed by
 > Matthew Vaughn.
 >
 > As expected, Hugh Jackman has made a deal to return as Wolverine, and
 > Halle Berry, Ian McKellen and Patrick Stewart are moving the same way
 > for a film to shoot this summer. A release date of May 26, 2006, is
planned.
 >
 > The demise of Janssen's psychic character in the last go-around will not
 > be ignored, as she will this time evolve into a character called the
 > Phoenix."
 >
 >


I'd like to seem them film 2 movies at once, as has been done with the final
installments of the Matrix, and all 3 Lord Of The Rings movies. one to be
released in the early summer, one to be released in the fall or near
Christmas. i think to do the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix saga, it needs to be
teased out. to bring her back and kill her, and tell the story of some
conflict with another organization (be it Magneto, the Hellfire Club,
Sentinels, Proteus.... etc., whoever it is that they use) in between is
going to give both parts short shrift. X3 should have Scott leaving the
team and Storm taking over (as happened after DP in the comics, and to
satisfy Halle Berry who's always complaining that she doesn't have anything
to do, and justifiably so). Xavier could tell Scott he senses her... or
Scott could find her in his leave of absence, sort of the same way he found
Madelyne (minus the Sinister connections), her living a life with no memory
prior to her death, etc.

use the sentinels as the main opposition in this movie, while they build her
up as the Phoenix, and introduce the Hellfire stuff that begins to turn her,
and then make X4 an all-out Dark Phoenix/Hellfire cult story where she goes
crazy, turns evil, and then sacrifices herself.

otherwise, trying to cram the resurrection, the build-up, the turning, and
the death in one 90 minute or 2 hour movie seems like it's going to suffer,
or not leave enough room for them to be facing some other antagonist, which
i'm assuming they'll have to, just to satisfy the audience going solely for
an action-adventure blockbuster.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

Aaron Forever wrote:


 >
 > I'd like to seem them film 2 movies at once, as has been done with the final
 > installments of the Matrix, and all 3 Lord Of The Rings movies. one to be
 > released in the early summer, one to be released in the fall or near
 > Christmas.

Singer once wanted to do something like this, but he left the movies.
And Fox has already said this will be the last team X-Man movie. After
this they'll do just solo character movies like Wolverine.


 >
 > otherwise, trying to cram the resurrection, the build-up, the turning, and
 > the death in one 90 minute or 2 hour movie seems like it's going to suffer,
 > or not leave enough room for them to be facing some other antagonist, which
 > i'm assuming they'll have to, just to satisfy the audience going solely for
 > an action-adventure blockbuster.
 >

Well the movie universe doesn't follow the same pattern as the comics.
I think you could easily turn the Phoenix saga into one movie. Keep in
mind non comic book audiences won't have the patience of comic book
audiences. Jean was transforming to Phoenix in X-Men 2, and that needs
to be dealt with right away in X-Men 3.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

In message <E7x4e.29086$f%4.16035@bignews1.bellsouth.net>, Justin
Samuels <viaong1.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net> writes
 >Does anyone here think that the Phoenix force will be killed permanently?

Good lord, no. Especially not with it forming a key plot point of X3.

Besides, the Phoenix force is logically unkillable. The best that you
could hope for would be for it to be permanently written out.

--
Paul O'Brien

THE X-AXIS - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.thexaxis.com" target="_blank">http://www.thexaxis.com</a>
ARTICLE 10 - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ninthart.com" target="_blank">http://www.ninthart.com</a>
LIVEJOURNAL - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.livejournal.com/~paulobrien" target="_blank">http://www.livejournal.com/~paulobrien</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

Paul O'Brien wrote:
 > In message <E7x4e.29086$f%4.16035@bignews1.bellsouth.net>, Justin
 > Samuels <viaong1.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net> writes
 >
  >> Does anyone here think that the Phoenix force will be killed permanently?
 >
 >
 > Good lord, no. Especially not with it forming a key plot point of X3.
 >
 > Besides, the Phoenix force is logically unkillable. The best that you
 > could hope for would be for it to be permanently written out.
 >
The Phoenix force is not forming a part of X-Men 3. In the movie
universe, Paul, Jean Grey evolves into being the Phoenix. Look at X-Men
2, which shows Jean's Phoenix transformation. You see Jean's powers
evolving, but there is NO MENTION of an ALIEN ENTITY.

This is taken from Variety, the source of news for the Film Industry

"New life for Famke in 'X-Men 3'
Jean Grey returns to trilogy

By Michael Fleming

Though her "X-Men" character Jean Grey was killed off to save her fellow
mutants in the last film, Famke Janssen has signed a deal to return for
20th Century Fox and Marvel Entertainment's "X-Men 3," to be directed by
Matthew Vaughn.

As expected, Hugh Jackman has made a deal to return as Wolverine, and
Halle Berry, Ian McKellen and Patrick Stewart are moving the same way
for a film to shoot this summer. A release date of May 26, 2006, is planned.

The demise of Janssen's psychic character in the last go-around will not
be ignored, as she will this time evolve into a character called the
Phoenix."


Note the key word, evolve. So my question was, since so many people
here apparently don't understand it, would Marvel eliminate the Phoenix
force in favor of saying Jean evolved into Phoenix? So they'd have
movie and comic book continuity matching.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? 

Justin Samuels <viaong1.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:VEG5e.35941$vL3.9025@bignews4.bellsouth.net:

 > Note the key word, evolve. So my question was, since so many people
 > here apparently don't understand it, would Marvel eliminate the
 > Phoenix force in favor of saying Jean evolved into Phoenix? So they'd
 > have movie and comic book continuity matching.

That isn't necessarily killing the Phoenix Force though, just
changing Phoenix back into actually being Jean rather than a separate
entity that duplicated Jean. Which is quite possibly how the majority
of readers effectively view the Phoenix Force anyway, as actually being
Jean at a higher power level.

Or as a somewhat uniform degree of power that someone strong enough
ultimately taps into. So anyone of a certain degree ends up becoming
a Phoenix. Or whatever other explanation is desired. Phoenix as a
separate alien entity never really worked anyway. It pretty much
completely destroys the whole point of Dark Phoenix and the trial.
(It was a case of trying to have your cake and eat it too. If Phoenix
weren't an exact duplicate of Jean in every aspect, including mentally
and spiritually, then it is just an alien lifeform and its fate has
no necessary parallel to Jean and the story loses its impact. If
Phoenix were an exact duplicate of Jean to every degree, then it being
an alien is just a blatant giant cosmic reset button with the same
non-existant impact of any Marvel alternate future reset situation.)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently?