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Since: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 449
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(Msg. 76) Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:55 pm
Post subject: Re: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>comics>marvel>xbooks (more info?)
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In message <58R6e.51740$vL3.6388@bignews4.bellsouth.net>, Justin Samuels
<viaong1 DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> writes
>
>That's just because he didn't want people to know that he is a regular
>customer at the NYC Hellfire Club.
Claremont's extracurricular activities have been the subject of, uh,
speculation in certain circles of fandom for some time, and beyond that
I don't intend to comment further.
But the Hellfire Club plotline in the Dark Phoenix Saga is, very
obviously indeed, lifted from the AVENGERS episode "A Touch of
Brimstone", broadcast in 1966 and banned in the USA for several years on
the grounds of unacceptable sexual content. The plot involves Steed and
Emma Peel uncovering a scheme by the Hellfire Club to instal themselves
as the government. The Avengers attend the Club's gala, where Emma Peel
is drugged, dressed up as a dominatrix, and becomes the "Queen of Sin",
as seen in <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://theavengers.tv/forever/peel1-21a.htm" target="_blank">http://theavengers.tv/forever/peel1-21a.htm</a> - hey, it was
pushing it for 1966.
As in the X-Men's version, male club members where anachronistic
clothing, and the women are in bondage gear. The fact that the Hellfire
Club's other Queen is called Emma is another pretty clear signal of
where this plot was lifted from. The homage is quite explicit.
--
Paul O'Brien
THE X-AXIS - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.thexaxis.com" target="_blank">http://www.thexaxis.com</a>
ARTICLE 10 - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ninthart.com" target="_blank">http://www.ninthart.com</a>
LIVEJOURNAL - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.livejournal.com/~paulobrien" target="_blank">http://www.livejournal.com/~paulobrien</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> |
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Since: Mar 01, 2005
Posts: 85
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(Msg. 77) Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:49 pm
Post subject: Re: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Aaron Forever wrote:
>
> Um, yes, well these are superhero comic books. That's sort of the point.
>
>
When supervillains like Magneto have the chance to kill the X-Men in
Claremont's books, what do they often do? They tie them up. Magneto
put the X-Men in this gear that reduced them to the movements of a baby.
Now, in one of those S&M establishments I once went to (an S&M
restaurant in NYC called La Maison de Sade), they would put people in
the infant chairs.
Powerful Claremont telepats like Selene ENSLAVED people. Selene, when
she enslaved Rachel and Amara, put dog leashes around their necks.
Selene a couple of issues later mind controled Rachel and Amara and made
them wear slutty clothes.
The Shadow King, who also enslaved people, made his hounds wear some of
weird leather spikey outfits. There really wear freaks dressing like in
NYC's East Village area. (not quite like that, but those outfits were
inspired by that)
Then in Revolution when Psylocke attracts that Blue elfish looking lady,
the woman grabs her. Psylocke thinks to herself, "the harder I struggle
the stronger she gets" The lady knocks her out.
Then this guy fights Angel. He punches him out and says, "Delicious".
I don't remember the exact dialouge but it had clear S&M undertones.
><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> |
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Since: Feb 24, 2005
Posts: 384
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(Msg. 78) Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:55 pm
Post subject: Re: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Aaron Forever" <nobody.RemoveThis@nowhere.com> wrote in
news:0%57e.9386$xL4.4552@attbi_s72:
> "Dan McEwen" <ferroboy.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3c3bqfF6mpcv5U11@individual.net...
>> I don't think he's really off-base here. Claremont does like the
>> leather and extremely strong-willed women. If one or two women were
>> had these powerful wills, fine, but it's all of them.
>
> Yeah, there's nothing worse than a willful woman. Except several of
> them.
I never claimed there was anything wrong with them, just that it seemed
extreme that any female character he ever wrote was that way.
>>Plus, they're all
>> super-geniuses or extremely exceptional at something or other.
>
> Um, yes, well these are superhero comic books. That's sort of the
> point.
Not really. Super-powers are the point.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? |
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Since: Aug 12, 2004
Posts: 187
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(Msg. 79) Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:55 am
Post subject: Re: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Dan McEwen" <ferroboy RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c642lF6ljds5U4@individual.net...
> "Aaron Forever" <nobody RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote in
> news:0%57e.9386$xL4.4552@attbi_s72:
>
> > "Dan McEwen" <ferroboy RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:3c3bqfF6mpcv5U11@individual.net...
>
> >> I don't think he's really off-base here. Claremont does like the
> >> leather and extremely strong-willed women. If one or two women were
> >> had these powerful wills, fine, but it's all of them.
> >
> > Yeah, there's nothing worse than a willful woman. Except several of
> > them.
>
> I never claimed there was anything wrong with them, just that it seemed
> extreme that any female character he ever wrote was that way.
>
Seems like a requirement in the business of super-heroing.
> >>Plus, they're all
> >> super-geniuses or extremely exceptional at something or other.
> >
> > Um, yes, well these are superhero comic books. That's sort of the
> > point.
>
> Not really. Super-powers are the point.
>
which usually fall under being super-geniuses and extremely exceptional at
something. especially the ones who take on the mantle of crime-fighter.
there are plenty of weak, wimpy, stupid, unexceptional, boring people
populating the Marvel Universe. we aren't reading about them, because
they're weak, wimpy, stupid, unexceptional, and boring.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? |
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Since: Feb 24, 2005
Posts: 384
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(Msg. 80) Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:55 pm
Post subject: Re: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Aaron Forever" <nobody DeleteThis @nowhere.com> wrote in
news:Nsm7e.13526$Bb3.2452@attbi_s22:
> "Dan McEwen" <ferroboy DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3c642lF6ljds5U4@individual.net...
>> I never claimed there was anything wrong with them, just that it
>> seemed extreme that any female character he ever wrote was that way.
> Seems like a requirement in the business of super-heroing.
There are plenty of characters who aren't especially outstanding in this
manner. Heck, Spider-Man isn't that outstanding. This is a
Claremontian theme.
>> >>Plus, they're all
>> >> super-geniuses or extremely exceptional at something or other.
>> >
>> > Um, yes, well these are superhero comic books. That's sort of the
>> > point.
>>
>> Not really. Super-powers are the point.
> which usually fall under being super-geniuses and extremely
> exceptional at something.
Er, what? Who's a super-genius besides Reed Richards and Doctor Doom?
Under Claremont, Kitty is a super-genius. Under everyone else - all of
who seem to write her better - she a really smart young woman.
especially the ones who take on the mantle
> of crime-fighter. there are plenty of weak, wimpy, stupid,
> unexceptional, boring people populating the Marvel Universe. we
> aren't reading about them, because they're weak, wimpy, stupid,
> unexceptional, and boring.
You think being a super-genius *and* a crimefighter go hand-in-hand?
I'd think just the opposite.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? |
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Since: Jan 30, 2005
Posts: 52
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(Msg. 81) Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:11 am
Post subject: Re: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Aaron Forever" <nobody DeleteThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:7nV6e.13126$8Z6.11924@attbi_s21...
>
> "Justin Samuels" <viaong1 DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:58R6e.51740$vL3.6388@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> > Paul O'Brien wrote:
> >
> > > In message <YWn6e.52268$vK6.11084@bignews3.bellsouth.net>, Justin
> > > Samuels <viaong1 DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> writes
> > >
> > >>
> > >> There's a real life Hellfire Club in New York City. It's an S&M
club.
> > >> So it isn't necessarily British. And I think the club as it is in
the
> > >> X-Men is based on the NYC Hellfre Club that Claremont likely went to.
> > >
> > >
> > > Claremont's always acknowledged that his version of the Hellfire Club
is
> > > based on the Avengers episode. It even had a very similar plot, with
> > > the female lead being brainwashed into becoming their Queen.
> > >
> > > The original Hellfire Club was a real historical club from the 1700s.
> > > Basically, a gentlemen's brothel.
> > >
> > That's just because he didn't want people to know that he is a regular
> > customer at the NYC Hellfire Club. Which is an S&M brothel.
> >
> > Claremont has so many S&M themes in his work. It's obvious than he has
> > a lot of experience with these kinds of things. And that's why
> > Claremont loves powerful women, because they tie into his fantasies of
> > dominatrixes.
>
> Oh yes, because the only way that a fictitious female character can be
> powerful is if she ties into dominatrix fantasies. And here I just
thought
> they were realistic....
Why? Did those madonna trolls stalking you suck out your brain and piss
into it?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? |
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Since: Jan 30, 2005
Posts: 52
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(Msg. 82) Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:13 am
Post subject: Re: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Aaron Forever" <nobody.TakeThisOut@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:0%57e.9386$xL4.4552@attbi_s72...
>
> "Dan McEwen" <ferroboy.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3c3bqfF6mpcv5U11@individual.net...
> > "Aaron Forever" <nobody.TakeThisOut@nowhere.com> wrote in
> > news:7nV6e.13126$8Z6.11924@attbi_s21:
> >
> > > "Justin Samuels" <viaong1.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > news:58R6e.51740$vL3.6388@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> >
> > >> Claremont has so many S&M themes in his work. It's obvious than he
> > >> has a lot of experience with these kinds of things. And that's why
> > >> Claremont loves powerful women, because they tie into his fantasies
> > >> of dominatrixes.
> > >
> > > Oh yes, because the only way that a fictitious female character can be
> > > powerful is if she ties into dominatrix fantasies. And here I just
> > > thought they were realistic....
> >
> > I don't think he's really off-base here. Claremont does like the
> > leather and extremely strong-willed women. If one or two women were had
> > these powerful wills, fine, but it's all of them.
>
> Yeah, there's nothing worse than a willful woman. Except several of them.
Incorrect. Several willful lesbians are worse.
> >Plus, they're all
> > super-geniuses or extremely exceptional at something or other.
>
> Um, yes, well these are superhero comic books. That's sort of the point.
No, it is not. This is not Grant Morrison's JLA or the fucking Dragon Ball
Z universe, damn you.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? |
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Since: Aug 12, 2004
Posts: 187
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(Msg. 83) Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:55 am
Post subject: Re: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Dan McEwen" <ferroboy.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c8jfbF6k5f7mU1@individual.net...
> "Aaron Forever" <nobody.RemoveThis@nowhere.com> wrote in
> news:Nsm7e.13526$Bb3.2452@attbi_s22:
>
> > "Dan McEwen" <ferroboy.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:3c642lF6ljds5U4@individual.net...
>
> >> I never claimed there was anything wrong with them, just that it
> >> seemed extreme that any female character he ever wrote was that way.
>
> > Seems like a requirement in the business of super-heroing.
>
> There are plenty of characters who aren't especially outstanding in this
> manner. Heck, Spider-Man isn't that outstanding. This is a
> Claremontian theme.
>
Sorry, but that's just not true. Yes, Marvel heroes have been injected with
"real" life sort of fears and problems, which set them apart from what came
before. however, underlying the entire genre is the theme of people who
have exceptional powers and talents saving the world.
> >> >>Plus, they're all
> >> >> super-geniuses or extremely exceptional at something or other.
> >> >
> >> > Um, yes, well these are superhero comic books. That's sort of the
> >> > point.
> >>
> >> Not really. Super-powers are the point.
>
> > which usually fall under being super-geniuses and extremely
> > exceptional at something.
>
> Er, what? Who's a super-genius besides Reed Richards and Doctor Doom?
Peter Parker invented his own web-shooters. Beast is a genius. Tony Stark.
Stephen Strange. Henry Pym. etc.
> especially the ones who take on the mantle
> > of crime-fighter. there are plenty of weak, wimpy, stupid,
> > unexceptional, boring people populating the Marvel Universe. we
> > aren't reading about them, because they're weak, wimpy, stupid,
> > unexceptional, and boring.
>
> You think being a super-genius *and* a crimefighter go hand-in-hand?
> I'd think just the opposite.
no, but these people are generally a cut above the rest of us. which is
really the point of the genre. it's meant to be a power fantasy.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? |
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Since: Aug 12, 2004
Posts: 187
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(Msg. 84) Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:55 am
Post subject: Re: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"The Babaloughesian" <babaloughesian.DeleteThis@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:425f4dc9$1@x-privat.org...
>
> "Aaron Forever" <nobody.DeleteThis@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:7nV6e.13126$8Z6.11924@attbi_s21...
> >
> > "Justin Samuels" <viaong1.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:58R6e.51740$vL3.6388@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> > > Paul O'Brien wrote:
> > >
> > > > In message <YWn6e.52268$vK6.11084@bignews3.bellsouth.net>, Justin
> > > > Samuels <viaong1.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> writes
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >> There's a real life Hellfire Club in New York City. It's an S&M
> club.
> > > >> So it isn't necessarily British. And I think the club as it is in
> the
> > > >> X-Men is based on the NYC Hellfre Club that Claremont likely went
to.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Claremont's always acknowledged that his version of the Hellfire
Club
> is
> > > > based on the Avengers episode. It even had a very similar plot,
with
> > > > the female lead being brainwashed into becoming their Queen.
> > > >
> > > > The original Hellfire Club was a real historical club from the
1700s.
> > > > Basically, a gentlemen's brothel.
> > > >
> > > That's just because he didn't want people to know that he is a regular
> > > customer at the NYC Hellfire Club. Which is an S&M brothel.
> > >
> > > Claremont has so many S&M themes in his work. It's obvious than he
has
> > > a lot of experience with these kinds of things. And that's why
> > > Claremont loves powerful women, because they tie into his fantasies of
> > > dominatrixes.
> >
> > Oh yes, because the only way that a fictitious female character can be
> > powerful is if she ties into dominatrix fantasies. And here I just
> thought
> > they were realistic....
>
> Why? Did those madonna trolls stalking you suck out your brain and piss
> into it?
You're going to give them erections if you keep talking like that. shhh.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: will the Phoenix force be killed of permanently? |
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