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Pol Pot and 1984

 
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mdi00

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Since: Aug 22, 2003
Posts: 17



(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:48 pm
Post subject: Pol Pot and 1984
Archived from groups: alt>books>george-orwell (more info?)

One thing I've sometimes wondered about: do you think Pol Pot
could have been inspired by Orwell's most famous book? The
idea may be less crazy than it sounds. Consider the following:

1) Pol Pot's regime in Cambodia was most likely the closest
thing resembling the government of Oceania that ever existed,
much more so than even Stalinist Russia.

2) In 1984's Oceania there are posters everywhere with the
face of "Big Brother", the leader of the Party. Under the
Khmer Rouge posters were affixed with Pol Pot's face,
referring to him as "Brother Number One".

3) Pol Pot had been studying at the Sorbonne in Paris in the
early 1950's (from 1950 till 1953, IIRC), when Orwell's book
had just been published and become a bestseller.

What do you think? I suppose it's a bit too late to ask Mr Pot
himself.

Marco

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bridegam

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Since: Jun 27, 2003
Posts: 627



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Pol Pot and 1984 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Marco wrote:

 > One thing I've sometimes wondered about: do you think Pol Pot
 > could have been inspired by Orwell's most famous book? The
 > idea may be less crazy than it sounds. Consider the following:
 >
 > 1) Pol Pot's regime in Cambodia was most likely the closest
 > thing resembling the government of Oceania that ever existed,
 > much more so than even Stalinist Russia.
 >
 > 2) In 1984's Oceania there are posters everywhere with the
 > face of "Big Brother", the leader of the Party. Under the
 > Khmer Rouge posters were affixed with Pol Pot's face,
 > referring to him as "Brother Number One".
 >
 > 3) Pol Pot had been studying at the Sorbonne in Paris in the
 > early 1950's (from 1950 till 1953, IIRC), when Orwell's book
 > had just been published and become a bestseller.
 >
 > What do you think? I suppose it's a bit too late to ask Mr Pot
 > himself.
 >
 > Marco

Dunno. The Cambodian regime drove everyone into forced-labor farming
work in the countryside, where Orwell's book is intensely urban and the
characters look to the countryside as a place for relief from the
pressures of being closely watched. Also, the Khmer Rouge terror had
many unique features that never troubled even Orwell's imagination. I
think it's in the DSM-IV that there were women who suffered medically
unexplainable blindness because of the atrocities they were forced to
witness.

We've actually discussed many times how surprisingly little *1984*
reflected the continental wartime horrors of forced labor and genocide.
In Orwell's dystopia physical hardship isn't the major problem: unfree
thought is.

Christopher Hitchens has suggested that the North Korean and former
Iraqi regimes may both have treated *1984* as a model, but I think he's
being ironic, not literally suggesting it.

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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ahogue

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Since: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 242



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Pol Pot and 1984 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Martha Bridegam wrote:

 >Marco wrote:
 >
 >
 >
  >>One thing I've sometimes wondered about: do you think Pol Pot
  >>could have been inspired by Orwell's most famous book? The
  >>idea may be less crazy than it sounds. Consider the following:
  >>
  >>1) Pol Pot's regime in Cambodia was most likely the closest
  >>thing resembling the government of Oceania that ever existed,
  >>much more so than even Stalinist Russia.
  >>
  >>2) In 1984's Oceania there are posters everywhere with the
  >>face of "Big Brother", the leader of the Party. Under the
  >>Khmer Rouge posters were affixed with Pol Pot's face,
  >>referring to him as "Brother Number One".
  >>
  >>3) Pol Pot had been studying at the Sorbonne in Paris in the
  >>early 1950's (from 1950 till 1953, IIRC), when Orwell's book
  >>had just been published and become a bestseller.
  >>
  >>What do you think? I suppose it's a bit too late to ask Mr Pot
  >>himself.
  >>
  >>Marco
  >>
  >>
 >
 >
 >
 >Christopher Hitchens has suggested that the North Korean and former
 >Iraqi regimes may both have treated *1984* as a model, but I think he's
 >being ironic, not literally suggesting it.
 >
 >/M
 >
 >

I don't think he meant it literally, but I don't think he was exactly
being ironic. At least in the case of North Korea he has more than once
made some kind of comparison (i.e., has "likened" that regime) to the
one in 1984.

Anyone here know a lot about North Korea? How apt is that comparison?

Alan H.

Alan H.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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allport

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Since: Jun 27, 2003
Posts: 241



(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Pol Pot and 1984 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Martha Bridegam" <bridegam RemoveThis @pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3F4D396F.F0C09AFC@pacbell.net...

 > We've actually discussed many times how surprisingly little *1984*
 > reflected the continental wartime horrors of forced labor and genocide.

These kinds of events presumably take place off-stage, in the quadrilateral
frontier zone between the three superpowers.

Alan.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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bridegam

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Since: Jun 27, 2003
Posts: 627



(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:22 pm
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Alan Allport wrote:

 > "Martha Bridegam" <bridegam.RemoveThis@pacbell.net> wrote in message
 > news:3F4D396F.F0C09AFC@pacbell.net...
 >
  > > We've actually discussed many times how surprisingly little *1984*
  > > reflected the continental wartime horrors of forced labor and genocide.
 >
 > These kinds of events presumably take place off-stage, in the quadrilateral
 > frontier zone between the three superpowers.
 >
 > Alan.

Yes, but anyone wanting to know just how it was done would as of the 1950s
unfortunately have had many other sources to choose from.

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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allport

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Since: Jun 27, 2003
Posts: 241



(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Pol Pot and 1984 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Alan Hogue" <ahogue.DeleteThis@lawdot.berkeleydot.edu> wrote in message
news:bije00$5kb$1@agate.berkeley.edu...

 > Anyone here know a lot about North Korea?

I don't think *anyone* knows a whole lot about contemporary North Korea, and
that includes most contemporary North Koreans.

Alan.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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gzitver

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Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 125



(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:07 am
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Alan Hogue wrote

 >I don't think he meant it literally, but I don't think he was exactly
 >being ironic. At least in the case of North Korea he has more than once
 >made some kind of comparison (i.e., has "likened" that regime) to the
 >one in 1984.
 >
 >Anyone here know a lot about North Korea? How apt is that comparison?

See:
<http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=20030114103010.17
520.00000430%40mb-ck.aol.com>

Unfortunately the link to the Times article no longer works.

Gene<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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gzitver

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Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 125



(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Pol Pot and 1984 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Gene Zitver wrote

 >See:
 ><http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=20030114103010.17
 >520.00000430%40mb-ck.aol.com>

Also, several months ago I pointed to these photos of an uncompleted hotel (or
so they say) in Pyongyang, obviously modeled after the Ministry of Love in
_Nineteen Eighty-Four_:

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.worldcityphotos.org/KoreaDPR/KRN-Pyongyang-MTorres1.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.worldcityphotos.org/KoreaDPR/KRN-Pyongyang-MTorres1.jpg</a>

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.worldcityphotos.org/KoreaDPR/KRN-Pyongyang-PHorton2.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.worldcityphotos.org/KoreaDPR/KRN-Pyongyang-PHorton2.jpg</a>

Gene<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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mabjo

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Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 423



(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:30 pm
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Gene Zitver wrote:

 > Gene Zitver wrote
 >
  > >See:
  > ><http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=20030114103010.17
  > >520.00000430%40mb-ck.aol.com>
 >
 > Also, several months ago I pointed to these photos of an uncompleted hotel (or
 > so they say) in Pyongyang, obviously modeled after the Ministry of Love in
 > _Nineteen Eighty-Four_:
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.worldcityphotos.org/KoreaDPR/KRN-Pyongyang-MTorres1.jpg</font" target="_blank">http://www.worldcityphotos.org/KoreaDPR/KRN-Pyongyang-MTorres1.jpg</font</a>>
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.worldcityphotos.org/KoreaDPR/KRN-Pyongyang-PHorton2.jpg</font" target="_blank">http://www.worldcityphotos.org/KoreaDPR/KRN-Pyongyang-PHorton2.jpg</font</a>>
 >
 > Gene

Obviously?

It's mighty strange, but couldn't it also be a reducto ad absurdam of generic
'30s Gotham City architecture (<http://www.ouka.fi/kirjasto/kuvat/gotham.gif>)?

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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mabjo

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Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 423



(Msg. 10) Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:30 pm
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Martha Bridegam wrote:

 > Gene Zitver wrote:
 >
  > > Gene Zitver wrote
  > >
   > > >See:
   > > ><http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=20030114103010.17
   > > >520.00000430%40mb-ck.aol.com>
  > >
  > > Also, several months ago I pointed to these photos of an uncompleted hotel (or
  > > so they say) in Pyongyang, obviously modeled after the Ministry of Love in
  > > _Nineteen Eighty-Four_:
  > >
<font color=green>  > > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.worldcityphotos.org/KoreaDPR/KRN-Pyongyang-MTorres1.jpg</font" target="_blank">http://www.worldcityphotos.org/KoreaDPR/KRN-Pyongyang-MTorres1.jpg</font</a>>
  > >
<font color=green>  > > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.worldcityphotos.org/KoreaDPR/KRN-Pyongyang-PHorton2.jpg</font" target="_blank">http://www.worldcityphotos.org/KoreaDPR/KRN-Pyongyang-PHorton2.jpg</font</a>>
  > >
  > > Gene
 >
 > Obviously?
 >
 > It's mighty strange, but couldn't it also be a reducto ad absurdam of generic
 > '30s Gotham City architecture (<http://www.ouka.fi/kirjasto/kuvat/gotham.gif>)?
 >
 > /M

'scuse, that should be "reductio ad absurdum." Pardon me.

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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psandje

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Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 68



(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 1:47 am
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"Alan Hogue" <ahogue.TakeThisOut@lawdot.berkeleydot.edu> wrote in message
news:bije00$5kb$1@agate.berkeley.edu...
 >
 > I don't think he meant it literally, but I don't think he was exactly
 > being ironic. At least in the case of North Korea he has more than once
 > made some kind of comparison (i.e., has "likened" that regime) to the
 > one in 1984.
 >
 > Anyone here know a lot about North Korea? How apt is that comparison?
 >
 > Alan H.
 >
 > Alan H.
 >

See:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1131421.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1131421.stm</a>

Of course if you are Tony Blair or Alastair Campbell you won't believe a
word of it.

Paul Stables<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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