Tolkien Quote?

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:07:06 -0400, Stan Brown
(the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm) said:
 > "GoldenUsagi" <minamim2.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
  > >I saw this quote on the internet attributed to Tolkien. Is it? Does anyone
  > >recognize it?
  > >
  > >"American English is essentially English after having been wiped off with a
  > >dirty sponge."
 >
 > I find it hard to imagine he would have said something so rude, but
 > it's impossible to prove a negative.

It refers to Letter #58 and Tolkien's encounter with the young American
officer on the train:

"After I told him that his 'accent' sounded to me like English after
being wiped over by a dirty sponge, and generally suggested (falsely) to
an English observer that, together with American slouch, it indicated a
slovenly and ill-disciplined people -- well, we got quite friendly."

(this was after being irritated by the American's assertion that the
'Oxford Accent' was put-on)
--
Matthew<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:07:06 -0400, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> wrote:

 >"GoldenUsagi" <minamim2 RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
  >>I saw this quote on the internet attributed to Tolkien. Is it? Does anyone
  >>recognize it?
  >>
  >>"American English is essentially English after having been wiped off with a
  >>dirty sponge."
 >
 >I find it hard to imagine he would have said something so rude, but
 >it's impossible to prove a negative.

Heh! *I* can imagine it! And I don't think that 'rudeness' slowed any
of the Inklings down one wit. None og them appeared to be overly
respectful of the United States.

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat@pobox.com
--
Ah! But does a half-dead cat have Buddha Nature?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Tolkien Quote? 

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:20:27 -0700, the softrat <softrat.RemoveThis@pobox.com>
posted the following:

 >On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:07:06 -0400, Stan Brown
 ><the_stan_brown.RemoveThis@fastmail.fm> wrote:
 >
  >>"GoldenUsagi" <minamim2.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
   >>>I saw this quote on the internet attributed to Tolkien. Is it? Does anyone
   >>>recognize it?
   >>>
   >>>"American English is essentially English after having been wiped off with a
   >>>dirty sponge."
  >>
  >>I find it hard to imagine he would have said something so rude, but
  >>it's impossible to prove a negative.
 >
 >Heh! *I* can imagine it! And I don't think that 'rudeness' slowed any
 >of the Inklings down one wit. None og them appeared to be overly
 >respectful of the United States.

However, the context of the quote shows that it was specifically in
response to an American who insulted the English accent, so it's not
as if that was Tolkien's stand-firm opinion on American English. And
it was also in response to the American *accent*, not American English
per se.

-Chris<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Chris Kern" <chriskern99.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:sn1cn0l26qj00tif1ao9b0ri5dprkoccu0@4ax.com...
 > On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:20:27 -0700, the softrat <softrat.DeleteThis@pobox.com>
 > posted the following:
 >
  > >On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:07:06 -0400, Stan Brown
  > ><the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> wrote:
  > >
   > >>"GoldenUsagi" <minamim2.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
   > >>>I saw this quote on the internet attributed to Tolkien. Is it? Does
anyone
   > >>>recognize it?
   > >>>
   > >>>"American English is essentially English after having been wiped off
with a
   > >>>dirty sponge."
   > >>
   > >>I find it hard to imagine he would have said something so rude, but
   > >>it's impossible to prove a negative.
  > >
  > >Heh! *I* can imagine it! And I don't think that 'rudeness' slowed any
  > >of the Inklings down one wit. None og them appeared to be overly
  > >respectful of the United States.
 >
 > However, the context of the quote shows that it was specifically in
 > response to an American who insulted the English accent, so it's not
 > as if that was Tolkien's stand-firm opinion on American English. And
 > it was also in response to the American *accent*, not American English
 > per se.

Not to mention we have no idea what particular American accent this fellow
had. I mean, he might have been from Brooklyn or something.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Tolkien Quote? 

"Chris Kern" <chriskern99.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in
rec.arts.books.tolkien:

   >>>"GoldenUsagi" <minamim2.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
   >>>>I saw this quote on the internet attributed to Tolkien. Is it? Does anyone
   >>>>recognize it?

 >However, the context of the quote shows that it was specifically in
 >response to an American who insulted the English accent, so it's not
 >as if that was Tolkien's stand-firm opinion on American English. And
 >it was also in response to the American *accent*, not American English
 >per se.

This makes a lot more sense to me. Tolkien was good at the snappy
retort. I think of his "both rings were round, and there the
resemblance ceases". I suspect that, like a lot of people who live
with words and use them well, he was not above snapping out an
epigram just _because_ it was quotable, even if perhaps it didn't
reflect his views very precisely.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://OakRoadSystems.com" target="_blank">http://OakRoadSystems.com</a>
Tolkien FAQs: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://Tolkien.slimy.com" target="_blank">http://Tolkien.slimy.com</a> (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html" target="_blank">http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html</a>
FAQ of the Rings: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm" target="_blank">http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm</a>
Encyclopedia of Arda: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm" target="_blank">http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm</a>
more FAQs: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm" target="_blank">http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 06:42:55 -0400, Gorbag (gorbag@invalid.acct) said:
 >
 > "Chris Kern" <chriskern99 DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
 > news:sn1cn0l26qj00tif1ao9b0ri5dprkoccu0@4ax.com...
[snip]
  > > However, the context of the quote shows that it was specifically in
  > > response to an American who insulted the English accent, so it's not
  > > as if that was Tolkien's stand-firm opinion on American English. And
  > > it was also in response to the American *accent*, not American English
  > > per se.
 >
 > Not to mention we have no idea what particular American accent this fellow
 > had. I mean, he might have been from Brooklyn or something.

The letter says it was a New England accent (at least in Tolkien's
opinion - his origin may also have come out in the conversation, I
suppose).
--
Matthew<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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the softrat" <softrat RemoveThis @pobox.com> wrote in message
news:l7mbn0hh6icchjf656b7dlkk14qqfos2vu@4ax.com...
 > On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:07:06 -0400, Stan Brown
 > <the_stan_brown RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> wrote:
 >
  > >"GoldenUsagi" <minamim2 RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
   > >>I saw this quote on the internet attributed to Tolkien. Is it? Does
anyone
   > >>recognize it?
   > >>
   > >>"American English is essentially English after having been wiped off
with a
   > >>dirty sponge."
  > >
  > >I find it hard to imagine he would have said something so rude, but
  > >it's impossible to prove a negative.
 >
 > Heh! *I* can imagine it! And I don't think that 'rudeness' slowed any
 > of the Inklings down one wit. None ofthem appeared to be overly
 > respectful of the United States.
 >

I'm sure that they were as respectful as the US deserved, softy?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Tolkien Quote? 

the softrat wrote:
 >
 > On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:07:06 -0400, Stan Brown
 > <the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> wrote:
 >
  > >"GoldenUsagi" <minamim2.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
   > >>I saw this quote on the internet attributed to Tolkien. Is it? Does anyone
   > >>recognize it?
   > >>
   > >>"American English is essentially English after having been wiped off with a
   > >>dirty sponge."
  > >
  > >I find it hard to imagine he would have said something so rude, but
  > >it's impossible to prove a negative.
 >
 > Heh! *I* can imagine it! And I don't think that 'rudeness' slowed any
 > of the Inklings down one wit. None og them appeared to be overly
 > respectful of the United States.

At least not until after the war when some of them enjoyed the
bounty sent by American Lewis fans during those hard years of
privation....<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Tolkien Quote? 

"Matthew Bladen" <tamibirt RemoveThis @oohay.oc.ku> wrote in message
news:MPG.1be06fcadd1232c09896a8@news.ox.ac.uk...
> On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 06:42:55 -0400, Gorbag (gorbag@invalid.acct) said:
>>
>> "Chris Kern" <chriskern99 RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:sn1cn0l26qj00tif1ao9b0ri5dprkoccu0@4ax.com...
> [snip]
>> > However, the context of the quote shows that it was specifically in
>> > response to an American who insulted the English accent, so it's not
>> > as if that was Tolkien's stand-firm opinion on American English. And
>> > it was also in response to the American *accent*, not American English
>> > per se.
>>
>> Not to mention we have no idea what particular American accent this
>> fellow
>> had. I mean, he might have been from Brooklyn or something.
>
> The letter says it was a New England accent (at least in Tolkien's
> opinion - his origin may also have come out in the conversation, I
> suppose).
> --
> Matthew

New England? Downright uncivilized!
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