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Since: Apr 18, 2004
Posts: 7
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(Msg. 16) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:43 am
Post subject: Re: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>comics>marvel>xbooks, others (more info?)
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Paul O'Brien <paul.RemoveThis@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in
news:RltOxxAMlt3AFwzf@esoterica.demon.co.uk:
> Excalibur comes across, at the very least, as an exercise in arrogant
> and petulant disdain for the work of other writers.
I think Claremont has a perfect right to be arrogant and petulant towards
other X-Men writers, if they don't treat the characters with respect.
After all, in a very real sense, Claremont created them. (I know this is a
bit counterintuitive, bear with me for a moment.)
I recognize that Claremont (for the most part) didn't come up with the
character's names, their costumes, or their superpowers. He certainly
didn't conceive of the idea of the X-Men, Cerebro, the X-Mansion in
Westchester, etc.
But Chris Claremont--more than any other person--created the X-Men that
were for two decades the most popular comic book in the country. The same
X-Men that are known by hundreds of millions of people around the world.
First through popular cartoon series of the 90s, and then into this decade
through two hugely successful movies.
When the average person says they enjoy the X-Men, whether they know it or
not, they are responding to Claremont's work. His were the stories and
characters that took the X-Men from being a bunch of perennial second
stringers, to an international multi-media franchise.
> Claremont's hardcore
> fanbase will doubtless be delighted with the book, but the broader
> commercial wisdom of this approach is extremely doubtful.
That must be me, I guess. EXCALIBUR has been a very pleasent surprise. I
wasn't expecting much from the comic--given the initial concept and the
last minute creative changes. However, once (the real) Magneto walked on
stage at the end of #1, I was hooked.
> After all,
> Morrison was outselling Claremont by more than two to one.
To be fair, when Morrison was outselling Claremont two to one, Morrison was
on the flagship book (NEW X-MEN) with Phil Jimenez, and Claremont was on X-
TREME X-MEN with Igor Korday (who while a very good artist, isn't a good
superhero artist).
--
Carl Henderson © 2004 Carl Henderson
jch.RemoveThis@carlhenderson.net<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> |
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Since: May 15, 2004
Posts: 25
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(Msg. 17) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 am
Post subject: Re: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>comics>marvel>xbooks (more info?)
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[Followups to rac.dc.vertigo removed.]
jch.TakeThisOut@carlhenderson.net (Carl Henderson) wrote:
> Chris Claremont--more than any other person--created the X-Men that
> were for two decades the most popular comic book in the country.
That doesn't mean his work today is automatically good.
Comics is very much a "what have you done for me lately" business.
Yes, he did amazing things for a long time... but I'd rather spend my
money elsewhere based on this current story.
> I think Claremont has a perfect right to be arrogant and petulant
> towards other X-Men writers, if they don't treat the characters
> with respect.
There's a difference between "respect" and "I wouldn't have done that".
Do you think the Morrison storylines with Magneto were disrespectful, or
just something Claremont didn't or wouldn't think of?
--
Johanna Draper Carlson
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.comicsworthreading.com" target="_blank">http://www.comicsworthreading.com</a>
Blogging at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.comicsworthreading.com/blog/cwr.html" target="_blank">http://www.comicsworthreading.com/blog/cwr.html</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> |
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Since: Mar 08, 2004
Posts: 406
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(Msg. 18) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:36 am
Post subject: Re: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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regenesis0.RemoveThis@aol.com (Derik Smith) wrote in
news:20040628004935.04107.00000480@mb-m26.aol.com:
>
> I picture Xorn showing up-- and it's the REAL Xorn, the one we
> never met.
> the one Magneto replaced.
> ...except Magneto is an imposter to.
>
> Leaving our immortal imposter who pretended to be Magneto
> pretendign to be
> Xorn unaccounted for, and still alive.
Well heck, since Xavier claims said the dead imposter has the
secondary mutation of coming back from the dead, he will eventually
be alive again anyway if he isn't already.
> Maybe they'll be creative and he doesnt have EM powers, he's just
> a power
> mimic, and he impersonated Mystique too...
>
> ...shit. Didn't Austen's first arc make a big deal about
> Casandra Nova
> being unaccounted for?
>
> *bangs head on wall*
When Austen finished off New X-Men, he made it an issue for about
half an issue. Scott and Beast(? I forget) suddenly wonder about
Cassandra's cell since the mansion is destroyed. They run off to
check it, get ambushed by a robot, and that is it. I don't think the
issue of Cassandra is ever raised again. Heck, I don't recall the
robot being addressed again. They beat it, and that it pretty much it.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 |
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Since: Mar 05, 2004
Posts: 92
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(Msg. 19) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:18 pm
Post subject: Re: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 22:58:02 +0100, "teepee" <no-email.DeleteThis@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>"Paul O'Brien" <paul.DeleteThis@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote
>
>> I expected to be really, really irritated by EXCALIBUR #2. But I
>> wasn't. I wasn't irritated at all.
>...
>> Rating: D+
>
>I say this is overly generous. What redeeming feature did it have?
I'm really confused. I liked this issue (it wasn't perfect, but it
was enjoyable), and I'm definitely not a hardcore fan of modern
Claremont. I didn't like his return in Revolution or X-Treme X-Men at
all. But I've enjoyed both issues of Excalibur, so go figure.
Lia
"The internet is the most efficient technology in the universe to make
a jackass out of yourself." ---Malcolm Azania
Freedom Force: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://members.fortunecity.com/rook1/ffintro.html" target="_blank">http://members.fortunecity.com/rook1/ffintro.html</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 |
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Since: May 07, 2004
Posts: 12
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(Msg. 20) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:42 pm
Post subject: Re: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>comics>marvel>xbooks, others (more info?)
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"CleV" <clJUNKv1.DeleteThis@balcab.ch> wrote in message
news:40df50ad.9582039@news.hispeed.ch...
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 20:35:17 +0200, "Marc-Oliver Frisch"
> <Derschwarm.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >CleV wrote:
>
> >: To be fair to Claremont, he's rarely done this before. Normally, he's
> >: very good at syncretising the work of others into his own stories.
>
> >I wouldn't say that. When he initially returned to the franchise, he
pretty
> >much ignored anything that had happened to the characters while he'd been
gone.
>
> Can you give some examples? I thought the Revolution titles tried
> actually to take what was currently there and move things along.
> IIRC, our problem was that the new directions were not universally
> liked or appreciated.
>
> >On the other hand, in fairness, he *did* a pretty good job contrasting
his
> >team's philosophy with that of Morrison's X-Men over the last couple of
years.
> >(Incidentally, those have also been some of the strongest issues of
X-TREME
> >X-MEN.)
>
There was a *6 month* time gap before Revolution started. Betsy and Jean had
swapped powers (never explained), Kitty had a complete transformation into a
short-haired chick with claws (never explained) and so on.
--
Kevin
"Every day is a new beginning. Afterall, we never freakin' learn do we?"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 |
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Since: May 07, 2004
Posts: 12
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(Msg. 21) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:45 pm
Post subject: Re: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>comics>marvel>xbooks (more info?)
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"Billy Bissette" <baines.RemoveThis@coastalnet.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9515B2E67E0D4whacholookinat@207.69.154.203...
> Paul O'Brien <paul.RemoveThis@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in
> news:RltOxxAMlt3AFwzf@esoterica.demon.co.uk:
> > THE X-AXIS
> > 27 June 2004
> > ============
> >
> > EXCALIBUR #2 - "Forging the Sword, part 2 of 4"
> > by Chris Claremont, Aaron Lopresti and Greg Adams
> >
> > ------------
> >
> > I expected to be really, really irritated by EXCALIBUR #2. But I
> > wasn't. I wasn't irritated at all.
> >
> > I was too busy laughing for that.
>
> Don't worry Paul, I'm not fighting your opinions on this one. But
> I do have my own things to say and address about the points you raise.
>
> And hey, I remembered to remove dc.vertigo from the groups, since I'm
> not mentioning the Vertigo title. 
>
> > As I've said before, there's nothing inherently wrong with bringing back
> > Magneto. He was only really killed in order to add a sense of finality
> > to "Planet X", and those sorts of deaths are fair game for reversal.
> > However, Claremont simply bulldozes the entire storyline aside by
> > blithely dismissing Morrison's Magneto as "an impostor." Which, by the
> > way, completely screws up Morrison's storyline, because thematically it
> > has to be the real Magneto.
>
> As has been raised in another thread, was it actually Claremont's
> decision to bring back Magneto, or was it a higher power at Marvel?
> I could see it going either way, as Austen has said that he was told
> to bring back Xorn.
>
Whether or not it was Marvel or Claremont who decided to bring Magneto back
is irrelevant. As a reader there needs to be a better explanation. I can't
read a book and say "Well, his bosses said he had to bring him back,
therefore, I need to accept the fact that he cannot come up with a better
storyline to do so."
--
Kevin
"Every day is a new beginning. Afterall, we never freakin' learn do we?"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 |
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Since: Mar 26, 2004
Posts: 400
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(Msg. 22) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:35 pm
Post subject: Re: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Billy Bissette <baines.RemoveThis@coastalnet.com> wrote:
: spiral. At best, he is being influenced by a rather mind-affecting drug
: that promotes just the things that make egomaniacal apocalyptic Magneto.
: At worst, he is being influenced even more directly by Sublime itself, not
: just for general mood but perhaps for actual plans. (Which would explain
There is some indication that Esme was also exerting influence on the
drug-addled Magneto, at least until he killed her.
: how Magneto was seemingly waiting for the sentinel attack. And if his
: whole plan was Kick/Sublime induced, it would also explain why he didn't
: just fake his death when he "died" before Morrison came onboard. And that
: incident is also reason for him to start taking Kick as well, as he tries
: to return to power after being gutted by Logan.)
Yes, I liked Lobdell's final efforts well enough, I must admit.
: influenced by another. Rather than having a Magneto who is bothered
: because someone else pretended to be him and committed those acts in
: his name.
It's all so obvious and clunky, isn't it?
: Wouldn't that have really have been a kick to Morrison's story as well?
: A deluded sun for a head Chinese kid masquerading as Magneto masquerading
: as himself. :p )
That would so almost work ... if Austen wasn't also bringing Xorn back
simultaneously. Woops!
: And yeah, too many people are turning out to have survived Genosha.
: But that is more than just Claremont's fault. At first, the very limited
: survivors made sense. Magneto shields himself from Cerebra and other
: telepaths with his helmet. Emma turned to diamond form to survive, and
: though it was never made truely clear and definite, that could have both
: shut down her own powers as well as protected her from others such as
: detection.
She does seem able to be psychic and diamond-form these days, even in
Morrison's later stories.
: > Rating: D+
: I know your scale bottoms out on a D, and why it does. But does it
: actually bottom at "D+", or have you ever gone lower? Though this issue
: honestly isn't the worst in the universe, I'd perhaps go as far as to
: debate whether it truely deserves a "+". :p
Maybe he liked the art a little?
Shawn >> Stay informed about: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 |
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Since: Mar 26, 2004
Posts: 400
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(Msg. 23) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:37 pm
Post subject: Re: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Derik Smith <regenesis0.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote:
: ...shit. Didn't Austen's first arc make a big deal about Casandra Nova
: being unaccounted for?
No, his first ISSUE did. They forgot to keep looking for her the
following issue when they decided to argue about Jean.
So confusing it might not even be a dangler.
Shawn >> Stay informed about: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 |
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Since: Mar 26, 2004
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(Msg. 24) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:41 pm
Post subject: Re: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>comics>marvel>xbooks, others (more info?)
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In rec.arts.comics.marvel.xbooks Carl Henderson <jch.TakeThisOut@carlhenderson.net> wrote:
: Paul O'Brien <paul.TakeThisOut@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in
: news:RltOxxAMlt3AFwzf@esoterica.demon.co.uk:
: > Excalibur comes across, at the very least, as an exercise in arrogant
: > and petulant disdain for the work of other writers.
: I think Claremont has a perfect right to be arrogant and petulant towards
: other X-Men writers, if they don't treat the characters with respect.
But how was Magneto disrespected by going on one of his greatest rampages
ever? You'd think Byrne at least would approve, but maybe Morrison
touches everybody's "patriarchal authority" button. Morrison always
lampoons or overturns the big daddies, but I suppose more conventional
writers actually depend on such stereotypes.
: When the average person says they enjoy the X-Men, whether they know it or
: not, they are responding to Claremont's work. His were the stories and
: characters that took the X-Men from being a bunch of perennial second
: stringers, to an international multi-media franchise.
They are not, however, creator-owned characters, and never were.
: > After all,
: > Morrison was outselling Claremont by more than two to one.
: To be fair, when Morrison was outselling Claremont two to one, Morrison was
: on the flagship book (NEW X-MEN) with Phil Jimenez, and Claremont was on X-
: TREME X-MEN with Igor Korday (who while a very good artist, isn't a good
: superhero artist).
Morrison actually had musical artists (including Kordey). CC had Larocca
for most of his run. The art wasn't the major seller for either title.
Shawn >> Stay informed about: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 |
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Since: Apr 09, 2004
Posts: 49
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(Msg. 25) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:53 pm
Post subject: Re: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>comics>marvel>xbooks (more info?)
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>There was a *6 month* time gap before Revolution started. Betsy and Jean had
>swapped powers (never explained), Kitty had a complete transformation into a
>short-haired chick with claws (never explained) and so on.
As I recall, Kitty used bone claws that Wolverine had lost,
and maybe, just maybe, she had a haircut.
Tilman
"Who wants to read something about this subject will find it in a book, the
title of which I've forgotten. But it's the 42nd chapter."
Professor Johann Georg August Galletti (1750-1828)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 |
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Since: Mar 15, 2004
Posts: 12
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(Msg. 26) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:18 pm
Post subject: Re: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"teepee" <no-email.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LpydnYUVZ65e30Ld4p2dnA@nildram.net...
:
: "Paul O'Brien" <paul.RemoveThis@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote
:
: > I expected to be really, really irritated by EXCALIBUR #2. But I
: > wasn't. I wasn't irritated at all.
: ...
: > Rating: D+
:
: I say this is overly generous. What redeeming feature did it have?
:
Staples?
--
Jim
[HYPE] Win Sleeper comics & TPBs!
http://www.toothwatch.co.uk >> Stay informed about: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 |
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Since: Mar 01, 2004
Posts: 147
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(Msg. 27) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:54 pm
Post subject: Re: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>comics>marvel>xbooks, others (more info?)
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CleV wrote:
: >I wouldn't say that. When he initially returned to the franchise, he pretty
: >much ignored anything that had happened to the characters while he'd been
gone.
:
: Can you give some examples?
Kitty Pryde's regression comes to mind. Cable and Gambit didn't particularly
seem to mesh with what was going on in their solo books, either, and Senator
Kelly, Sabretooth and Mystique also went through some rather jarring phases.
Looking back, though, I have to admit it's not as bad as I remembered. He did
acknowledge the Archangel/ Psylocke relationship or include Cecilia Reyes (even
if he stubbornly insisted on misspelling her first name), for example.
--
Marc-Oliver Frisch
POPP'D! >> http://poppd.blogspot.com/
Winning the hearts and minds of the Muslim world, one snapshot at a time.
--
[This is a Usenet message, posted to the rec.arts.comics.* groups.] >> Stay informed about: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 |
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Since: Mar 01, 2004
Posts: 147
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(Msg. 28) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:00 pm
Post subject: Re: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>comics>marvel>xbooks (more info?)
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Billy Bissette wrote:
: > ...shit. Didn't Austen's first arc make a big deal about
: > Casandra Nova
: > being unaccounted for?
: >
: > *bangs head on wall*
:
: When Austen finished off New X-Men, he made it an issue for about
: half an issue.
Which is unfortunate, considering that Morrison made it plain that Ernst is
Cassandra.
--
Marc-Oliver Frisch
POPP'D! >> http://poppd.blogspot.com/
Winning the hearts and minds of the Muslim world, one snapshot at a time.
--
[This is a Usenet message, posted to the rec.arts.comics.* groups.] >> Stay informed about: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 |
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Since: Mar 03, 2004
Posts: 175
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(Msg. 29) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:20 pm
Post subject: Re: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:54:58 +0200,"Marc-Oliver Frisch"
<Derschwarm.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote
>Looking back, though, I have to admit it's not as bad as I remembered. He did
>acknowledge the Archangel/ Psylocke relationship or include Cecilia Reyes (even
>if he stubbornly insisted on misspelling her first name), for example.
Is that why for some reason my mind reads her name as Celia Reyes?
Actually, thinking about it, why the hell didn't they get her to work
at the X-mansion as a Doctor instead of just having Nurse Annie?
Christian
--
"The Dark Phoenix may have been a threat to all life in the universe...
But she had great taste in costumes." (Rachel Summers Excalibur #65)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 |
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(Msg. 30) Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:21 pm
Post subject: Re: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>comics>marvel>xbooks, others (more info?)
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"Carl Henderson" <jch.TakeThisOut@carlhenderson.net> wrote in message
news:Xns951671BA3525carlhendersondotnet@151.164.30.94...
> Paul O'Brien <paul.TakeThisOut@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in
> news:RltOxxAMlt3AFwzf@esoterica.demon.co.uk:
>
> > Excalibur comes across, at the very least, as an exercise in arrogant
> > and petulant disdain for the work of other writers.
>
> I think Claremont has a perfect right to be arrogant and petulant towards
> other X-Men writers, if they don't treat the characters with respect.
>
> After all, in a very real sense, Claremont created them. (I know this is a
> bit counterintuitive, bear with me for a moment.)
Okay, I'll accept that in a sense, Claremont "created" them, and I'll accept
that he has a right to be arrogant, but I can't agree with the notion that
there is some sort of causal relationship between these facts. It doesn't
matter to me that CC popularized the X-Men decades ago anymore than it
matters that Stan Lee or whomever created them even more decades ago.
Shitty writing now is shitty writing now. Or in Claremont's case, shitty
writing in Extreme, or shitty writing during Revolution. He has
demonstrated to my satisfaction that having "created" a set of characters
long ago does not mean that one knows better than others how to write
enjoyable stories about them now.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 |
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