REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004

"CleV" <clJUNKv1.DeleteThis@balcab.ch> wrote in message
news:40df0a2e.1259980@news.hispeed.ch...
 > On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 15:27:24 +0100, Paul O'Brien
 > <paul.DeleteThis@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote:
 >
  > >Excalibur comes across, at the very least, as an exercise in arrogant
  > >and petulant disdain for the work of other writers. Claremont's hardcore
  > >fanbase will doubtless be delighted with the book, but the broader
  > >commercial wisdom of this approach is extremely doubtful.
 >
 > To be fair to Claremont, he's rarely done this before. Normally, he's
 > very good at syncretising the work of others into his own stories.

To be fair to Claremont and Austen, the return of Magneto and Xorn are
totally editorially mandated. How much the editors had to do with the story
isn't known. The writers could have been told "we want him back in this
manner..now please write it."

?

Patrick<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Patrick McClue" <mcclue DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2kal62F2d9rU1@uni-berlin.de...
 >
 > "CleV" <clJUNKv1 DeleteThis @balcab.ch> wrote in message
 > news:40df0a2e.1259980@news.hispeed.ch...
  > > On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 15:27:24 +0100, Paul O'Brien
  > > <paul DeleteThis @SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote:
  > >
   > > >Excalibur comes across, at the very least, as an exercise in arrogant
   > > >and petulant disdain for the work of other writers. Claremont's
hardcore
   > > >fanbase will doubtless be delighted with the book, but the broader
   > > >commercial wisdom of this approach is extremely doubtful.
  > >
  > > To be fair to Claremont, he's rarely done this before. Normally, he's
  > > very good at syncretising the work of others into his own stories.
 >
 > To be fair to Claremont and Austen, the return of Magneto and Xorn are
 > totally editorially mandated. How much the editors had to do with the
story
 > isn't known. The writers could have been told "we want him back in this
 > manner..now please write it."
 >
 > ?
 >

So, this is acceptable? I fail to understand how you can read a title and
say to yourself "He was told to do that, therefore I accept it" instead of
saying "This is crap. Therefore I wont be reading this anymore." Granted
there is always the gray area in which I fall, which "I am willing to see
where it is going."

I mean the point of "Reload" was "BRINING BACK CHRIS CLAREMONT." Who failed
miserably with "Revolution." I believe he is much better than what he has/is
giving us, whether or not editorial told him to do it or not.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Brian Doyle" <No_spam.TakeThisOut@freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cbnm3e$noo$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
 >
 > "CleV" <clJUNKv1.TakeThisOut@balcab.ch> wrote in message
 > news:40df50ad.9582039@news.hispeed.ch...
  > > On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 20:35:17 +0200, "Marc-Oliver Frisch"
  > > <Derschwarm.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
  > >
   > > >CleV wrote:
  > >
   > > >: To be fair to Claremont, he's rarely done this before. Normally,
he's
   > > >: very good at syncretising the work of others into his own stories.
  > >
   > > >I wouldn't say that. When he initially returned to the franchise, he
 > pretty
   > > >much ignored anything that had happened to the characters while he'd
been
 > gone.
  > >
  > > Can you give some examples? I thought the Revolution titles tried
  > > actually to take what was currently there and move things along.
  > > IIRC, our problem was that the new directions were not universally
  > > liked or appreciated.
 >
 > The retconning of Kitty's age is the one that annoyed me the most, if any
 > can be said to annoy me.
 >
 >
There is also Amara/Nova Roma.

Patrick<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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twihlite DeleteThis @aol.com (Twihlite) wrote in
news:20040628173224.15941.00000499@mb-m21.aol.com:

 > And Annie is loco, while Cecelia is not (at least when she's not in a
 > bad story about drug addiction any way).

You say that without seeing Austen write her... :p<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 27 June 2004 

Carl Henderson <jch-usenet-2004.DeleteThis@carlhenderson.net> wrote in
news:Xns9516AD219D397carlhendersonairmail@151.164.30.92:

 > Paul O'Brien <paul.DeleteThis@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in
 > news:sf+hPFF9FG4AFw$P@esoterica.demon.co.uk:
 >
  >> In message <Xns951671BA3525carlhendersondotnet.DeleteThis@151.164.30.94>, Carl
  >> Henderson <jch.DeleteThis@carlhenderson.net> writes
 >
   >>>I think Claremont has a perfect right to be arrogant and petulant
   >>>towards other X-Men writers, if they don't treat the characters with
   >>>respect.
 >
  >> The Claremont of 1985, perhaps. The Claremont of 2004? You must be
  >> joking.
 >
 > I'm not joking. I enjoy the man's work. I thought most of X-TREME
 > X-MEN was first rate (save for the chopped-up BDSM flavored Storm
 > graphic novel that got inserted there towards the end). I'm very
 > impressed with his first two issues of UNCANNY, and I thought his
 > FANTASTIC FOUR was one of the best takes on the characters in years.

I liked a decent amount of X-Treme (up until around when the BDSM
flavored Storm graphic novel was shoehorned in) and defended it many
times here. I've pretty much liked his Uncanny. Didn't read his
Fantastic Four, but it is hard to be worse than some of the takes of
the characters in years.

And Excalibur is not good.

If Excalibur were good enough, he could get by with being arrogant
and petulant about the characters and his changes. But it isn't good.
It is silly, contrived, poorly designed, and downright idiotic at
moments.

Perhaps he didn't understand why Morrison's Magneto was *not* a
bastardization of the character, but his solution to the problem was
rather hamfisted. There is no quality writing in his solution. His
solution doesn't show any quality that would warrant him even having
the right of discounting Morrison's run and after-effects.

It is also rather disrespectful in general. In the long run,
Morrison was faithful to the works of those before him. He had his
own take of things, and some of the changes were fairly abrupt at first,
but he did try to in general play fair with the prior status of the
characters and even used it at times. Bringing Magneto back just to
kill him was annoying (and I'm still annoyed that Quitely's artwork
was so questionable that you couldn't trust that the explosion occurring
next to Magneto's tower really was supposed to be next to but not actually
touching the building), but Magneto's return played a major part in things
and in a well written fashion. His Magneto seems on the surface to be
a big departure or reversion of the character, but it isn't. Even using
Kick itself *fits* with the Magneto of past writers.

Claremont handles the return of Magneto with no respect or concern.
It's the PAD/whoever-before-PAD joke of reversing a run in just one panel.
Except in this case, the panel is in a book that is in no way deserving
of that kind of manipulation. Excalibur hasn't earned the right to make
that kind of change to a better storyline, when Excalibur itself starts
off bad and proceeds to laughable.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Billy Bissette <baines.TakeThisOut@coastalnet.com> wrote in
news:Xns9516C66003A97whacholookinat@207.69.154.205:

 > Claremont handles the return of Magneto with no respect or concern.
 > It's the PAD/whoever-before-PAD joke of reversing a run in just one
 > panel. Except in this case, the panel is in a book that is in no way
 > deserving of that kind of manipulation. Excalibur hasn't earned the
 > right to make that kind of change to a better storyline, when Excalibur
 > itself starts off bad and proceeds to laughable.

Clearly we aren't going to agree on the merits of the new EXCALIBUR. I'm
enjoying it, and I expect that the "return of Magneto" plotline will unfold
as more than a one panel reversal.

--
Carl Henderson © 2004 Carl Henderson
jch.TakeThisOut@carlhenderson.net<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Carl Henderson wrote:

: I'm not joking. I enjoy the man's work. I thought most of X-TREME X-MEN was
: first rate (save for the chopped-up BDSM flavored Storm graphic novel that
: got inserted there towards the end). I'm very impressed with his first two
: issues of UNCANNY, and I thought his FANTASTIC FOUR was one of the best
: takes on the characters in years.

I agree on FANTASTIC FOUR, actually; that was fun.

In 95% of Claremont's X-Men work after 1986 or so, though, I detect far too many
flaws to still count him as a great writer-- and even the five percent that are
good are far from being on such a level that I would consider him one of the
best writers in the field today.

Mostly, to be frank, Claremont's work nowadays just reads like he's content with
pandering to people who liked his work in 1980, and just tries to hit as many of
the right buttons for that crowd as he can manage.

Which doesn't work at all for me, unfortunately. Not that I don't like the 1980
stuff, but it's 2004 now. The kind of writer I'm interested in are the ones who
are constantly looking to refine and reinvent their craft, and take on new
challenges.

Claremont doesn't have much to offer to me in that regard.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch
POPP'D! >> http://poppd.blogspot.com/

Winning the hearts and minds of the Muslim world, one snapshot at a time.

--
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Christian Smith wrote:

: >Looking back, though, I have to admit it's not as bad as I remembered. He
did
: >acknowledge the Archangel/ Psylocke relationship or include Cecilia Reyes
(even
: >if he stubbornly insisted on misspelling her first name), for example.
:
: Is that why for some reason my mind reads her name as Celia Reyes?

He spelled her name "Cecelia," if I remember correctly. You'd think the editor
would catch that sort of thing.

Then again, of course, Claremont couldn't even make his mind up on whether
Thunderbird, his own creation, was called "Shaara" or "Sharra," referred to
Gambit as "Remy Boudreaux" and called Legion "Daniel Haller," and no one caught
these, either.

--
Marc-Oliver Frisch
POPP'D! >> http://poppd.blogspot.com/

Winning the hearts and minds of the Muslim world, one snapshot at a time.

--
[This is a Usenet message, posted to the rec.arts.comics.* groups.]
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Paul O'Brien <paul DeleteThis @SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in
news:jtBCzaCC9F4AFwMu@esoterica.demon.co.uk:

 > Austen has said that HE was mandated to do it. I don't believe
 > Claremont has made any similar claims, and an editorial mandate, in this
 > case, could very well mean "Chuck, Chris has come up with this story
 > idea. Play along."
 >
 >

Why would Austen have to play along with anything? The events of Excalibur
don't necessitate the Return of Xorn. I'd think it would be best not to
intimate this mandate is the fault of Claremont.

--
---------------------<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:19:26 GMT, Janus <janusredway.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
 >Paul O'Brien <paul.DeleteThis@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in
 >news:jtBCzaCC9F4AFwMu@esoterica.demon.co.uk:
 >
  >> Austen has said that HE was mandated to do it. I don't believe
  >> Claremont has made any similar claims, and an editorial mandate, in this
  >> case, could very well mean "Chuck, Chris has come up with this story
  >> idea. Play along."
 >
 >Why would Austen have to play along with anything?

Because he has to do what the editors tell him if he wants to keep
writing the book.

-Ralf Haring
"The mind must be the harder, the heart the keener,
the spirit the greater, as our strength grows less."
-Byrhtwold, The Battle of Maldon<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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rah2.DeleteThis@duke.edu (Ralf Haring) wrote in news:40e0fe61.3323869
@news.optonline.net:

 > Because he has to do what the editors tell him if he wants to keep
 > writing the book.

The point I was making is : the editors would have no reason to force a
Xorn return only to satisfy Claremont's Magneto return. Which is what
O'brien's hypothetical suggested.

--
---------------------<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In message <cbpsj1$l50$1@sunburst.ccs.yorku.ca>, Peter Dimitriadis
<yu239006.TakeThisOut@yorku.ca> writes
 >
 >Also, I believe at one point either Claremont or Austen were planning
 >on using Cecilia for something, but found out they were 'claimed'. I
 >think she wound up in Weapon X briefly, didn't she?

Yup, she was in Neverland - a plot which also killed off Maggott, not
that anyone really noticed. Neverland was deserted last we saw, and
it's not yet been revealed what happened to the remaining inmates.

--
Paul O'Brien

THE X-AXIS - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.thexaxis.com" target="_blank">http://www.thexaxis.com</a>
ARTICLE 10 - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ninthart.com" target="_blank">http://www.ninthart.com</a>
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On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:54:58 +0200, "Marc-Oliver Frisch"
<Derschwarm DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

 >CleV wrote:
 >
 >: >I wouldn't say that. When he initially returned to the franchise, he pretty
 >: >much ignored anything that had happened to the characters while he'd been
 >gone.
 >:
 >: Can you give some examples?
 >
 >Kitty Pryde's regression comes to mind. Cable and Gambit didn't particularly
 >seem to mesh with what was going on in their solo books, either, and Senator
 >Kelly, Sabretooth and Mystique also went through some rather jarring phases.

I'm pretty sure we can't blame him for Sabretooth. That really struck
me as a late change that wasn't his; I can say that when I bugged him
for info about the Dream's End Brotherhood right after the crossover
was announced (at a con), he said nothing about Sabretooth. He told
me a lineup that was fairly close to what we ended up getting, but
with a few significant changes...he mentioned those two characters who
were intro'd in X-Men 106 but suddenly disappeared by Dream's End. I
don't see why he'd drop his own new characters and then suddenly add
movie-ized Sabretooth unless he was told to do so (and remember we
also got movie-ized Toad and Mystique). Everybody else was as he'd
told me.
The only weird element is that Avalanche ended up in the Brotherhood,
even though Claremont never mentioned him and he had nothing to do
with the movie.

Also, while I hatehatehate what was done with Mystique around that
time period, Senator Kelly seemed mostly fine to me.

Lia


"The internet is the most efficient technology in the universe to make
a jackass out of yourself." ---Malcolm Azania
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