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Next: Friends of the X-Men
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External
Since: May 10, 2004
Posts: 24
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:28 am
Post subject: Rachel and Dark Phoenix
Archived from groups: rec>arts>comics>marvel>xbooks (more info?)
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I was thinking today about how many readers reacted to the original
Dark Phoenix storyline by pointing out that characters like Thor and
Professor X never went crazy with their power (the implication being
that Jean did because she was a woman); Marvel responded by pointing
out in the letters page that those characters had great power that was
natural to them (Thor isn't even human, really) and neither had
negative influences actively corrupting them. It's a testament to
Jean's strength of character that she was stable for so long,
actually.
Would she have eventually fallen anyway? Who can say?
Anywho, now we have Rachel. AFAIK, she has *never* shown any signs of
going to the Dark Phoenix side. Has she? If not, any thoughts on why
not?
Dex |
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External
Since: Mar 28, 2004
Posts: 24
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:59 am
Post subject: Re: Rachel and Dark Phoenix [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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smilinglord RemoveThis @hotmail.com (Hand-of-Omega) wrote in message news:<27420f11.0407062128.48d02141 RemoveThis @posting.google.com>...
> I was thinking today about how many readers reacted to the original
> Dark Phoenix storyline by pointing out that characters like Thor and
> Professor X never went crazy with their power (the implication being
> that Jean did because she was a woman); Marvel responded by pointing
> out in the letters page that those characters had great power that was
> natural to them (Thor isn't even human, really) and neither had
> negative influences actively corrupting them. It's a testament to
> Jean's strength of character that she was stable for so long,
> actually.
>
> Would she have eventually fallen anyway? Who can say?
It wasn't the original plan for her to become Dark phoenix. Phoenix
was just meant to be a power-up to make Jean more interesting. The
DArk phoenix storyline developed, because, as John Byrne pointed out,
Phoenix was written in such a way to make the rest of the team
redundant.
>
> Anywho, now we have Rachel. AFAIK, she has *never* shown any signs of
> going to the Dark Phoenix side. Has she? If not, any thoughts on why
> not?
When she tried to kill Selene, (UNcanny 205) Wolverine tried to kill
her because he was afraid that this was the start of a path that would
lead her to become Dark phoenix.
"Becoming Dark Phoenix is not a naturla progression. As originally
written Phoenix only turned to the Dark Side as a result of being
brainwashed by Mastermind into having this evil persona and of
MAstermind 's power eroding her self-created psychic barriers.
If she hadn't been brainwashed into being the Black Queen , there
would have been no DArk phoenix. Hence, there is no reason that Rachel
should turn dark ... well, if you ignore the bit that thanks to her
past she was always a little unstable and ... ulp<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> |
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External
Since: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 912
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:33 am
Post subject: Re: Rachel and Dark Phoenix [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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smilinglord DeleteThis @hotmail.com (Hand-of-Omega) wrote in
news:27420f11.0407062128.48d02141@posting.google.com:
> Anywho, now we have Rachel. AFAIK, she has *never* shown any signs of
> going to the Dark Phoenix side. Has she? If not, any thoughts on why
> not?
Rachel isn't anywhere near as powerful as Dark Phoenix. She also didn't
have someone like Mastermind influencing her thoughts to lead her down a
dark path.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Rachel and Dark Phoenix |
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External
Since: Jan 12, 2004
Posts: 232
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:33 am
Post subject: Re: Rachel and Dark Phoenix [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 8 Jul 2004 02:33:51 GMT, Dan McEwen <dannyboymcny.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>smilinglord@hotmail.com (Hand-of-Omega) wrote in
>news:27420f11.0407062128.48d02141@posting.google.com:
>
>> Anywho, now we have Rachel. AFAIK, she has *never* shown any signs of
>> going to the Dark Phoenix side. Has she? If not, any thoughts on why
>> not?
>Rachel isn't anywhere near as powerful as Dark Phoenix. She also didn't
>have someone like Mastermind influencing her thoughts to lead her down a
>dark path.
Nope, the screwing with her mind to make her a Hound wasn't nearly as
subtle as what Mastermind did with Jean.
--
"Who needs the big picture? Not me! Hints are fine."
-Joan Girardi
(after God showed her just a little of his omnipresent brain)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Rachel and Dark Phoenix |
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External
Since: May 10, 2004
Posts: 24
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 7:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Rachel and Dark Phoenix [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn.RemoveThis@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<2gipe0tfsvkrf8vr4kj8l0s5ibiolljss1.RemoveThis@4ax.com>...
> On 8 Jul 2004 02:33:51 GMT, Dan McEwen <dannyboymcny.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >smilinglord@hotmail.com (Hand-of-Omega) wrote in
> >news:27420f11.0407062128.48d02141@posting.google.com:
> >
> >> Anywho, now we have Rachel. AFAIK, she has *never* shown any signs of
> >> going to the Dark Phoenix side. Has she? If not, any thoughts on why
> >> not?
>
> >Rachel isn't anywhere near as powerful as Dark Phoenix. She also didn't
> >have someone like Mastermind influencing her thoughts to lead her down a
> >dark path.
>
> Nope, the screwing with her mind to make her a Hound wasn't nearly as
> subtle as what Mastermind did with Jean.
Less so the mindscrew she underwent at the hands of Mojo and
Spiral...^_~
Dex,
hoping that Ray, as long as she's wearing Jean's hand-me-downs, tries
out the Black Queen outfit! Hey, it'll spite Emma...^__^<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Rachel and Dark Phoenix |
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External
Since: Mar 01, 2004
Posts: 47
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Rachel and Dark Phoenix [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Dan McEwen wrote:
>
> smilinglord.RemoveThis@hotmail.com (Hand-of-Omega) wrote in
> news:27420f11.0407062128.48d02141@posting.google.com:
>
> > Anywho, now we have Rachel. AFAIK, she has *never* shown any signs of
> > going to the Dark Phoenix side. Has she? If not, any thoughts on why
> > not?
>
> Rachel isn't anywhere near as powerful as Dark Phoenix.
Really really false. This is the lady who, when the Beyonder tried to snuff her,
almost wiped out the entire universe. She's powered multiple
interdimensional/temporal jaunts, and been the powerhouse behind taking down a
dimension-killing wizard.
--
Jon
-----
Cats are the embodiment of angels here on Earth.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Rachel and Dark Phoenix |
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External
Since: May 10, 2004
Posts: 24
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Rachel and Dark Phoenix [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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lord zog <evil_lord_zog.DeleteThis@spin.net.au> wrote in message news:<40ED0E6C.C50EB08A.DeleteThis@spin.net.au>...
> Dan McEwen wrote:
> >
> > smilinglord.DeleteThis@hotmail.com (Hand-of-Omega) wrote in
> > news:27420f11.0407062128.48d02141@posting.google.com:
> >
> > > Anywho, now we have Rachel. AFAIK, she has *never* shown any signs of
> > > going to the Dark Phoenix side. Has she? If not, any thoughts on why
> > > not?
> >
> > Rachel isn't anywhere near as powerful as Dark Phoenix.
>
> Really really false. This is the lady who, when the Beyonder tried to snuff her,
> almost wiped out the entire universe.
Don't remember that. I *DO* recall that the Beyonder (whose will
became instant reality, at the time) tried to make Rachel's attack
stop...he couldn't. This was, IIRC, the first time he was shown to be
unable to do something. And he had already beaten up all of the
Celestials...^^
> She's powered multiple
> interdimensional/temporal jaunts,
Given that she did at least some of these before actually gaining the
Phoenix Force, I'd posit that this was due to her own abilities. In
fact, this may be the mutation that makes her powers different from
her mothers'...
> and been the powerhouse behind taking down a
> dimension-killing wizard.
When was this? I do remember that, after being shown for years in many
X-Men and New Mutants storylines that Illyana's Darkchyld evil was
powerful and inseparable, Rachel permanently burned it out of
Illyana's soul without much effort at all...
She also once had Galactus on the ropes (which isn't as impressive now
as it once was...), before he revealed to her that the source of the
Phoenix's limitless power was the potential life force of the
universe; everytime Ray used it, she was effectively condemning future
untold billions to non-existence...
Was this ever adressed/retconned, or is it still in effect? No one
seems to have any moral issues with the Phoenix Force these days...
Dex,
wielder of the Chicken-Force!!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Rachel and Dark Phoenix |
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External
Since: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 463
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 3:54 am
Post subject: Re: Rachel and Dark Phoenix [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Hand-of-Omega <smilinglord.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:27420f11.0407062128.48d02141@posting.google.com...
> I was thinking today about how many readers reacted to the original
> Dark Phoenix storyline by pointing out that characters like Thor and
> Professor X never went crazy with their power (the implication being
> that Jean did because she was a woman); Marvel responded by pointing
> out in the letters page that those characters had great power that was
> natural to them (Thor isn't even human, really) and neither had
> negative influences actively corrupting them. It's a testament to
> Jean's strength of character that she was stable for so long,
> actually.
>
> Would she have eventually fallen anyway? Who can say?
>
> Anywho, now we have Rachel. AFAIK, she has *never* shown any signs of
> going to the Dark Phoenix side. Has she? If not, any thoughts on why
> not?
There were some hints during the Selene storyline circa UXM #206, if I
recall correctly, that led to Wolverine doing very bad things to her.
- Nathan P. Mahney -<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Rachel and Dark Phoenix |
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External
Since: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 912
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:36 am
Post subject: Re: Rachel and Dark Phoenix [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn RemoveThis @newsguy.com> wrote in
news:2gipe0tfsvkrf8vr4kj8l0s5ibiolljss1@4ax.com:
> On 8 Jul 2004 02:33:51 GMT, Dan McEwen <dannyboymcny RemoveThis @hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>smilinglord@hotmail.com (Hand-of-Omega) wrote in
>>news:27420f11.0407062128.48d02141@posting.google.com:
>>
>>> Anywho, now we have Rachel. AFAIK, she has *never* shown any signs
>>> of going to the Dark Phoenix side. Has she? If not, any thoughts on
>>> why not?
>
>>Rachel isn't anywhere near as powerful as Dark Phoenix. She also
>>didn't have someone like Mastermind influencing her thoughts to lead
>>her down a dark path.
>
> Nope, the screwing with her mind to make her a Hound wasn't nearly as
> subtle as what Mastermind did with Jean.
There was a difference. Jean was made to think that she had gone into
the past and was reliving actions done by her ancestor. IOW, she wasn't
"responsible". The problem was that she wasn't able to tell the
difference between reality and illusion. It drove her over the edge into
insanity and Dark Phoenix was born.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Rachel and Dark Phoenix |
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External
Since: Mar 01, 2004
Posts: 733
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:59 am
Post subject: Re: Rachel and Dark Phoenix [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Hand-of-Omega" <smilinglord DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:27420f11.0407081556.30a4b929@posting.google.com...
> > She's powered multiple
> > interdimensional/temporal jaunts,
>
> Given that she did at least some of these before actually gaining the
> Phoenix Force, I'd posit that this was due to her own abilities. In
> fact, this may be the mutation that makes her powers different from
> her mothers'...
Temporal tranportation is her own mutant power, the psi powers come from Mom
and the Phoenix force is separate to those.
> > and been the powerhouse behind taking down a
> > dimension-killing wizard.
>
> When was this?
The whole Anti-Phoenix story, IIRC.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Rachel and Dark Phoenix |
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External
Since: Jan 31, 2004
Posts: 213
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Rachel and Dark Phoenix [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 8 Jul 2004 16:56:37 -0700, smilinglord.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com (Hand-of-Omega)
wrote:
>lord zog <evil_lord_zog.TakeThisOut@spin.net.au> wrote in message news:<40ED0E6C.C50EB08A.TakeThisOut@spin.net.au>...
>> Dan McEwen wrote:
>> > Rachel isn't anywhere near as powerful as Dark Phoenix.
>> Really really false. This is the lady who, when the Beyonder tried to snuff her,
>> almost wiped out the entire universe.
Not with her own power, but by unleashing the Black Hole Galaxy within
the M'Krann Crystal.
>Don't remember that. I *DO* recall that the Beyonder (whose will
>became instant reality, at the time) tried to make Rachel's attack
>stop...he couldn't. This was, IIRC, the first time he was shown to be
>unable to do something. And he had already beaten up all of the
>Celestials...^^
IIRC it was because he'd already given her a portion of HIS power.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Rachel and Dark Phoenix |
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