Rachel Summers (Spoilers)

"JJ" <eviltyger.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:URvTd.14001$x53.8896@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
 > It's just before she took the ~name~. She never really had the power. At
 > best, only an echo of it... and a faint one at that.

Tell that to the Beyonder. Or Necrom. Or Feron, for that matter, who is
probably still in a snit about it. Rachel had the whole kit and kaboodle of
the Phoenix powers.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Rachel Summers (Spoilers) 

"JJ" <eviltyger.RemoveThis@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:URvTd.14001$x53.8896@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
 >
 > "Johnny Storm" <stefsmurf.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
 > news:34vTd.1460$Sd.388221@newshog.newsread.com...
  >> Possible spoilers
  >>
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  >> I have a question. Has Rachel/Marvel Girl always been shown as such an
  >> average telepath before? She's getting owned left and right like a two
  >> dollar whore. Yeah, I know, I know, she actually used to be a hound for
  >> Ahab, but that was before she received the Phoniex power, right? Maybe
 >
 > It's just before she took the ~name~. She never really had the power. At
 > best, only an echo of it... and a faint one at that.
 >

No, she clearly had the power, too. She whupped Galactus big time back in
Excalibur (vol 1). She sort of renounced the power after that, but her
powers have been written very inconsistently since.

I would prefer that she have the powers that Jean Grey did when she was
"Marvel Girl". She should damn well have to struggle to get things done.

I think that this is one of the reasons the X-Men movies are so good; Jean
can't blow up the second missle chasing the X-Plane, Wolverine gets knocked
out by a bullet to the head. Omnipotent Uber-Mutants get old, very, very
fast.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Rachel Summers (Spoilers) 

"zildjean" <zildjean DeleteThis @verizon.net> wrote in message
news:LzxTd.42905$t46.34564@trndny04...
 >
 > "JJ" <eviltyger DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote in message
 > news:URvTd.14001$x53.8896@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
  >>
  >> "Johnny Storm" <stefsmurf DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
  >> news:34vTd.1460$Sd.388221@newshog.newsread.com...
   >>> Possible spoilers
   >>>
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   >>>
   >>>
   >>> I have a question. Has Rachel/Marvel Girl always been shown as such an
   >>> average telepath before? She's getting owned left and right like a two
   >>> dollar whore. Yeah, I know, I know, she actually used to be a hound for
   >>> Ahab, but that was before she received the Phoniex power, right? Maybe
  >>
  >> It's just before she took the ~name~. She never really had the power. At
  >> best, only an echo of it... and a faint one at that.
  >>
 >
 > No, she clearly had the power, too. She whupped Galactus big time back in
 > Excalibur (vol 1). She sort of renounced the power after that, but her
 > powers have been written very inconsistently since.
 >
 > I would prefer that she have the powers that Jean Grey did when she was
 > "Marvel Girl". She should damn well have to struggle to get things done.

Don't worry. If the Fury happens to pop back into the X-World, you can be
sure Rachel will be tapping into the continuum again in an attempt to dispel
him.... ; >

Rachel has been the most inconsistent player since Claremont's return
(granted she returned when Claremont did, and I don't recall why...?). I
don't understand his infatuation with her, especially in her current
incarnation. She's made to be the team's go to player (the dino's in the
issue state she's the most dangerous), yet she constantly seems the weakest
member of the team all at once.

She can go toe to toe with the Fury, but gets overwhelmed and incapacitated
at a bar full of mutants when trying to abduct X-23. It doesn't make sense.

I really don't like her current characterization and don't like her on the
team. I'd say create someone new. The X-Men need new blood anyway. Their
roster rarely changes.


 > I think that this is one of the reasons the X-Men movies are so good; Jean
 > can't blow up the second missle chasing the X-Plane, Wolverine gets
 > knocked out by a bullet to the head. Omnipotent Uber-Mutants get old,
 > very, very fast.

Yep. That's they key point about the X-movies. A lot of people would do well
to take Bryan Singer's lead and depower their characters a bit -- or don't
creat them so powerful in the first place. Doing so would allow for more
storylines, as you couldn't have someone snap their fingers and simply
dismiss bad guys at will.

It's cool to have Omega-class mutants like Quentin Quire and all, but in
general, mutants should have abilities that are more like talents --
something that sets them apart from simply being human, but doesn't remove
them too far from that base level. The characters would be more relatable
that way. That's why the X-movies are so successful.

The ultra-powerful mutants should be the bad guys, who recognize their power
levels and develop the notion that they should rule the world, so to speak.
It would also make sense that a team of good guys is needed to fell the
ultra-powerful baddie.

I think Millar does a good job of this so far on Ultimates. It's a reason
why the book is so successful, besides the pretty art.

Dave<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Rachel Summers (Spoilers) 

Johnny Storm wrote:
 > Possible spoilers
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > I have a question. Has Rachel/Marvel Girl always been shown as such
an
 > average telepath before? She's getting owned left and right like a
two
 > dollar whore. Yeah, I know, I know, she actually used to be a hound
for
 > Ahab, but that was before she received the Phoniex power, right?
Maybe it's
 > just high expectations, but I've always expected a host for the
Phoniex to
 > be *better*.
 > First that shadow guy from Xtreme X-Men, then Selene taking her own
and
 > almost besting her, to her unable to take control of crowd and
actually lose
 > herself trying, and now getting owned by Barney the telepathic
dinosaur!?
 > Maybe it's a good thing her mother and brother aren't around.
 >
 >
 > Johnny Storm

My personal theory is it's because she used to be a Hound. It's like
her brain is conditioned so she needs some holding her "leash"
metaphorically. Even when she was Phoenix she got mind controlled or
was barely able to fight it off on her own.

She couldn't even fight off Emma, who wasn't trying to control her
directly but just trying to download something into her head.

JLB<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Rachel Summers (Spoilers) 

  > > I really don't like her current characterization and don't like her
on the
  > > team. I'd say create someone new. The X-Men need new blood anyway.
Their
  > > roster rarely changes.
 >
 > doesn't everyone online throw a fit whenever new blood is added to
the team?
 > i remember hostility about Marrow. Maggott. Thunderbird III.
Lifeguard.
 > Slipstream. Stacey X. Xorn II. etc.

***** Red Lotus *****

 > seems like every time things are shaken up, or a new character is
created,
 > everyone gets bet out of shape.

And often with good reason. With the exception of Stacy X (who would
have made a better/more age-appropriate foil for Angel than Husk) and
Marrow (who had to be dramatically re-written prior to induction),
these haven't exactly been winners, have they?

Also note: with the exception of Marrow, Stacy X, and Maggot, this
batch were Claremontisms. Another reason not to wish for a new
claremont TP/TK character.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Rachel Summers (Spoilers) 

Johnny Storm wrote:
 > Possible spoilers
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > I have a question. Has Rachel/Marvel Girl always been shown as such
an
 > average telepath before? She's getting owned left and right like a
two
 > dollar whore. Yeah, I know, I know, she actually used to be a hound
for
 > Ahab, but that was before she received the Phoniex power, right?
Maybe it's
 > just high expectations, but I've always expected a host for the
Phoniex to
 > be *better*.

My question is similar, but slightly different; it's not about her
*power* but her *skill*. All these tricks that she's learning from
Emma: Couldn't she already DO that stuff before? My X-knowledge isn't
encyclopedic, so I can't be sure, but I'm pretty sure there are scenes
in Uncanny and Excalibur where she did. I *know* she consistently used
her telepathy to keep people from seeing her facial scars (does she
still have them?), so obscuring entire people shouldn't be that new to
her...

Having complained thusly, I don't mind her lapses so much. Learning new
skills from Emma is actually pretty inspired of Claremont, and does
much for their relationship and any twists it may take. And watching
her inexplicably falling down some stairs after tripping was pretty
funny! (wait, didn't Sage telekinetically catch her?? How does THAT
work?!)

Dex<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Rachel Summers (Spoilers) 

David Henry wrote:
 > "zildjean" <zildjean DeleteThis @verizon.net> wrote in message
 > news:LzxTd.42905$t46.34564@trndny04...
  > >
  > > "JJ" <eviltyger DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote in message
  > > news:URvTd.14001$x53.8896@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
   > >>
   > >> "Johnny Storm" <stefsmurf DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
   > >> news:34vTd.1460$Sd.388221@newshog.newsread.com...
   > >>> Possible spoilers
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>>
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   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>>
   > >>> I have a question. Has Rachel/Marvel Girl always been shown as
such an
   > >>> average telepath before? She's getting owned left and right like
a two
   > >>> dollar whore. Yeah, I know, I know, she actually used to be a
hound for
   > >>> Ahab, but that was before she received the Phoniex power, right?
Maybe
   > >>
   > >> It's just before she took the ~name~. She never really had the
power. At
   > >> best, only an echo of it... and a faint one at that.
   > >>
  > >
  > > No, she clearly had the power, too. She whupped Galactus big time
back in
  > > Excalibur (vol 1). She sort of renounced the power after that, but
her
  > > powers have been written very inconsistently since.
  > >
  > > I would prefer that she have the powers that Jean Grey did when she
was
  > > "Marvel Girl". She should damn well have to struggle to get
things done.
 >
 > Don't worry. If the Fury happens to pop back into the X-World, you
can be
 > sure Rachel will be tapping into the continuum again in an attempt to
dispel
 > him.... ; >
 >
 > Rachel has been the most inconsistent player since Claremont's return

 > (granted she returned when Claremont did, and I don't recall
why...?). I
 > don't understand his infatuation with her, especially in her current
 > incarnation. She's made to be the team's go to player (the dino's in
the
 > issue state she's the most dangerous), yet she constantly seems the
weakest
 > member of the team all at once.
 >
 > She can go toe to toe with the Fury, but gets overwhelmed and
incapacitated
 > at a bar full of mutants when trying to abduct X-23. It doesn't make
sense.

Maybe she doesn't have fine control? So when she gets to cut loose no
problem. But if she doesn't want to atomize her opponent she actually
holds back to much.
 >
 > I really don't like her current characterization and don't like her
on the
 > team. I'd say create someone new. The X-Men need new blood anyway.
Their
 > roster rarely changes.
 >
 >
  > > It's cool to have Omega-class mutants like Quentin Quire and all,
but in
 > general, mutants should have abilities that are more like talents --

 > something that sets them apart from simply being human, but doesn't
remove
 > them too far from that base level. The characters would be more
relatable
 > that way. That's why the X-movies are so successful.

I'll never understand the call to make characters you can relate to.
The second they face one super-villain any chance of me relating to
them flies out the window.
 >
 > The ultra-powerful mutants should be the bad guys, who recognize
their power
 > levels and develop the notion that they should rule the world, so to
speak.
 > It would also make sense that a team of good guys is needed to fell
the
 > ultra-powerful baddie.
 >
 > I think Millar does a good job of this so far on Ultimates. It's a
reason
 > why the book is so successful, besides the pretty art.
 >
 > Dave

That would show the lesson that power corrupts. The Marvel Universe
prefers Spiderman's motto "With great power comes great
responsibility."

JLB<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Rachel Summers (Spoilers) 

"David Henry" <telemachus7.TakeThisOut@msn.com> wrote in message
news:GYWdnXweOK7mVoPfRVn-oA@comcast.com...
 >
 > "zildjean" <zildjean.TakeThisOut@verizon.net> wrote in message
 > news:LzxTd.42905$t46.34564@trndny04...
  >>
  >> "JJ" <eviltyger.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net> wrote in message
  >> news:URvTd.14001$x53.8896@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
   >>>
   >>> "Johnny Storm" <stefsmurf.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
   >>> news:34vTd.1460$Sd.388221@newshog.newsread.com...
   >>>> Possible spoilers
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>> I have a question. Has Rachel/Marvel Girl always been shown as such an
   >>>> average telepath before? She's getting owned left and right like a two
   >>>> dollar whore. Yeah, I know, I know, she actually used to be a hound for
   >>>> Ahab, but that was before she received the Phoniex power, right? Maybe
   >>>
   >>> It's just before she took the ~name~. She never really had the power. At
   >>> best, only an echo of it... and a faint one at that.
   >>>
  >>
  >> No, she clearly had the power, too. She whupped Galactus big time back
  >> in Excalibur (vol 1). She sort of renounced the power after that, but
  >> her powers have been written very inconsistently since.
  >>
  >> I would prefer that she have the powers that Jean Grey did when she was
  >> "Marvel Girl". She should damn well have to struggle to get things
  >> done.
 >
 > Don't worry. If the Fury happens to pop back into the X-World, you can be
 > sure Rachel will be tapping into the continuum again in an attempt to
 > dispel him.... ; >
 >
 > Rachel has been the most inconsistent player since Claremont's return
 > (granted she returned when Claremont did, and I don't recall why...?). I
 > don't understand his infatuation with her, especially in her current
 > incarnation. She's made to be the team's go to player (the dino's in the
 > issue state she's the most dangerous), yet she constantly seems the
 > weakest member of the team all at once.
 >

There are some characters that only work well when OTHER, similar characters
are absent. Rachel only shows up when Jean is dead. Just think: with the
two of them on the same team, who COULDN'T they beat?

The same thing seems to be happening with Sage going out and Psylock coming
in; they don't have the same powers, of course, but the have the same
function and place on the team.


 > She can go toe to toe with the Fury, but gets overwhelmed and
 > incapacitated at a bar full of mutants when trying to abduct X-23. It
 > doesn't make sense.
 >
 > I really don't like her current characterization and don't like her on the
 > team. I'd say create someone new. The X-Men need new blood anyway. Their
 > roster rarely changes.
 >

I disagree. I think Whedon's X-Men are the best we have seen in years, in
part because he went back to the well everybody thought was dry, and dug up
Kitty and Peter. Asking for new blood leads to new mutants like Maggott.
Be careful what you wish for.

There's too damn many X-Men already anyway.

 >
  >> I think that this is one of the reasons the X-Men movies are so good;
  >> Jean can't blow up the second missle chasing the X-Plane, Wolverine gets
  >> knocked out by a bullet to the head. Omnipotent Uber-Mutants get old,
  >> very, very fast.
 >
 > Yep. That's they key point about the X-movies. A lot of people would do
 > well to take Bryan Singer's lead and depower their characters a bit -- or
 > don't creat them so powerful in the first place. Doing so would allow for
 > more storylines, as you couldn't have someone snap their fingers and
 > simply dismiss bad guys at will.
 >
 > It's cool to have Omega-class mutants like Quentin Quire and all, but in
 > general, mutants should have abilities that are more like talents --
 > something that sets them apart from simply being human, but doesn't remove
 > them too far from that base level. The characters would be more relatable
 > that way. That's why the X-movies are so successful.
 >
 > The ultra-powerful mutants should be the bad guys, who recognize their
 > power levels and develop the notion that they should rule the world, so to
 > speak. It would also make sense that a team of good guys is needed to fell
 > the ultra-powerful baddie.
 >

I agree. That was what was so cool about Proteus; he was uber-powerful, but
a bad guy. It took the whole team to rein him in, and he HAD to be killed.

But then what would the Emerald Samurai do for goofy questions? "What if
Kitty Pryde got the powers of Galactus and Phoenix?"


 > I think Millar does a good job of this so far on Ultimates. It's a reason
 > why the book is so successful, besides the pretty art.
 >

Agreed! Iron Man chickens out, Cap pukes his guts up after a fight, etc.
They're very human.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Rachel Summers (Spoilers) 

<handofomega DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109355095.087967.177810@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
 >
 > Johnny Storm wrote:
  >> Possible spoilers
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >> I have a question. Has Rachel/Marvel Girl always been shown as such
 > an
  >> average telepath before? She's getting owned left and right like a
 > two
  >> dollar whore. Yeah, I know, I know, she actually used to be a hound
 > for
  >> Ahab, but that was before she received the Phoniex power, right?
 > Maybe it's
  >> just high expectations, but I've always expected a host for the
 > Phoniex to
  >> be *better*.
 >
 > My question is similar, but slightly different; it's not about her
 > *power* but her *skill*. All these tricks that she's learning from
 > Emma: Couldn't she already DO that stuff before? My X-knowledge isn't
 > encyclopedic, so I can't be sure, but I'm pretty sure there are scenes
 > in Uncanny and Excalibur where she did. I *know* she consistently used
 > her telepathy to keep people from seeing her facial scars (does she
 > still have them?), so obscuring entire people shouldn't be that new to
 > her...

I recall Rachel doing telepathic illusions way back when JR Jr. was drawing
Uncanny. She seemed pretty accomplished even back then.

Dave<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Rachel Summers (Spoilers) 

"David Henry" <telemachus7.TakeThisOut@msn.com> wrote in message
news:GYWdnXweOK7mVoPfRVn-oA@comcast.com...
 >

 >
 > I really don't like her current characterization and don't like her on the
 > team. I'd say create someone new. The X-Men need new blood anyway. Their
 > roster rarely changes.
 >

doesn't everyone online throw a fit whenever new blood is added to the team?
i remember hostility about Marrow. Maggott. Thunderbird III. Lifeguard.
Slipstream. Stacey X. Xorn II. etc.

people threw the same fit several months ago over the New Avengers line-up
as well, even though it consisted of established characters.

seems like every time things are shaken up, or a new character is created,
everyone gets bet out of shape.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Rachel Summers (Spoilers) 

 > doesn't everyone online throw a fit whenever new blood is added to the
 > team?
 > i remember hostility about Marrow. Maggott. Thunderbird III. Lifeguard.
 > Slipstream. Stacey X. Xorn II. etc.


That's probably because they all sucked.

Except for Xorn (the original version, anyway)...and look what happened to
him...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Rachel Summers (Spoilers) 

Mike wrote:
  >>doesn't everyone online throw a fit whenever new blood is added to the
  >>team?
  >>i remember hostility about Marrow. Maggott. Thunderbird III. Lifeguard.
  >>Slipstream. Stacey X. Xorn II. etc.
 > That's probably because they all sucked.
 > Except for Xorn (the original version, anyway)...and look what happened to
 > him...

Maggot, the New Zealand bounty hunter, was great.
--
"... to satisfy the honours and place, I had to leave her in silence ..."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
consul.RemoveThis@INVALIDdolphins-cove.com ((remove the INVALID to email))<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Rachel Summers (Spoilers) 

"~consul" <consul.DeleteThis@INVALIDdolphins-cove.com> wrote in message
news:cvnrgq$6pc$1@gist.usc.edu...
 > Mike wrote:
   >>>doesn't everyone online throw a fit whenever new blood is added to the
   >>>team?
   >>>i remember hostility about Marrow. Maggott. Thunderbird III.
   >>>Lifeguard.
   >>>Slipstream. Stacey X. Xorn II. etc.
  >> That's probably because they all sucked.
  >> Except for Xorn (the original version, anyway)...and look what happened
  >> to him...
 >
 > Maggot, the New Zealand bounty hunter, was great.

Nice name, though, huh. I can' think of a hero with a more derogatory code
name.

Dave<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Rachel Summers (Spoilers)