Religious characters are always bigots in comics

"Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1161353759.329467.52380@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Dan McEwen wrote:
>> "masonReloaded" <jonmason1977.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:1161299340.909052.251560@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > Agreed - and isnt it wierd that people say "this is against gods
>> > will".
>> > Isnt he FUCKING GOD. If he didnt want it to happen it wouldnt.
>> > If we
>> > can go against his will hes not much of a god now is he?
>>
>> Eh. Free will trumps what God wants. It's just you get punished in
>> the end - if you believe in that sort of thing, anyway.
>
> I don't really believe in free will. How many things have we done do
> we regret doing? How many things would we really take back if we had
> the chance? Ah, but we don't have the chance. Arguably we have free
> will if we can see two or more different choices and we choose only
> one of these choices.

You make the choices, but it may be that none of them or good. Besides,
what's the alternative? God and/or the Devil chooses for you and it's
arbitrary whether not not you go to Heaven or Hell?

But our choices are all based on our beliefs, our
> personal preferences, our sense of morality and our future plans.
> These things are predetermined and they make our ultimate choices
> inevitable. So we don't really have free will.

I disagree. I'm an atheist, and while my choices are shaped by
situations around me, I'm still the one who makes them. I make the
choice as to whether or not I'll get up to go to school or work every
day. There are consequences to each decision, but the choice is still
mind.

Like somebody else
> pointed out, most of us don't have a choice what religion we belong
> to: most of us are brainwashed by our parents who whisper in our ear
> at an early age that Mohammed or Jesus is going to save us. Save us
> from what? From living a happy life that does not involve
> terrorising, persecuting or belittling others apparently.

I was raised Catholic but I'm an atheist. The 'brainwashing' apparently
failed, and I come from a close knit family.

--
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain
occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive." --Thomas Jefferson

"How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying
to defend from without?" --Dwight D. Eisenhower
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

barnett RemoveThis @shentel.net wrote in
news:1161306669.174820.105830@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> Ah, but a random genetic quirk trigger some sort of physical
> alteration is not something that could be chosen.

Desires may inherent but actions are choice.

--
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain
occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive." --Thomas Jefferson

"How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying
to defend from without?" --Dwight D. Eisenhower
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn.TakeThisOut@newsguy.com> wrote in
news:s62ij2lrln0v51pr3hbp52q0s8ia0bam3k@4ax.com:

> Since nobody else has taken the bait of the subject title, I will.
>
> Various devoutly religious characters in Marvel comics who have not
> been protrayed as bigots:
>
> Rahne Sinclair (Presbyterian)

Actually, she has been, at least early on. She thought Illyana was
doomed to Hell for being a witch and actively disliked her.

> Bonita Jaurez (Roman Catholic)
> Sam Guthrie (Baptist)
> Kurt Wagner (Roman Catholic)
> Katherine Pryde (Jewish)
> Illyana Rasputinovna (Atheist)

Do we know this for a fact? Sure, people in the Soviet Union were
"officially" atheists, but it's hardly a secret that religion didn't
disappear but instead went underground.

However, I think you're generally correct. You can counter with
Stryker, but he was only ever meant to be a one-off character who never
satisfactorily fit into continuity - and who should never had returned.

--
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain
occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive." --Thomas Jefferson

"How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying
to defend from without?" --Dwight D. Eisenhower
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

On 20 Oct 2006 19:27:37 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroboy.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:

>William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn.DeleteThis@newsguy.com> wrote in
>news:s62ij2lrln0v51pr3hbp52q0s8ia0bam3k@4ax.com:
>
>> Since nobody else has taken the bait of the subject title, I will.
>>
>> Various devoutly religious characters in Marvel comics who have not
>> been protrayed as bigots:
>>
>> Rahne Sinclair (Presbyterian)
>
>Actually, she has been, at least early on. She thought Illyana was
>doomed to Hell for being a witch and actively disliked her.

Not so much bigoted as 'holier than thou', and that got less so after Sam
chewed her out over it on the bus to the Massachusetts Academy (and it
wasn't 'Yanna being a witch that bothered her, it was 'Yanna being a demon
master).

>> Bonita Jaurez (Roman Catholic)
>> Sam Guthrie (Baptist)
>> Kurt Wagner (Roman Catholic)
>> Katherine Pryde (Jewish)
>> Illyana Rasputinovna (Atheist)
>
>Do we know this for a fact? Sure, people in the Soviet Union were
>"officially" atheists, but it's hardly a secret that religion didn't
>disappear but instead went underground.

Illyana self-identified as 'atheist' several times. It didn't make a lot
of sense, since she had been raised on a Soviet Commune until she was about
six, then spent the next six or seven years in Limbo, and was with the
X-folks after returning from limbo (so not really any time to imprint
soviet cultural religious beliefs), but there you are.

It also created an interesting dichotomy, since she was a practicing
atheist who knew darned well that hell and demons existed.

>However, I think you're generally correct. You can counter with
>Stryker, but he was only ever meant to be a one-off character who never
>satisfactorily fit into continuity - and who should never had returned.

That's why Kurt and Bonita are good counter-examples. Both of them aren't
just devout church-members, but actively express their religion and have
taken part in their religion's organization.


--
"Oh Buffy, you really do need to have
every square inch of your ass kicked."
- Willow Rosenberg
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

Dan McEwen wrote:
> "Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:1161353759.329467.52380@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> > These things are predetermined and they make our ultimate choices
> > inevitable. So we don't really have free will.
>
> I disagree. I'm an atheist

I didn't say "predetermined by God". There's a difference between
"predetermined" and "planned". How you are is how you are. Doesn't
mean anybody made you that way.

Martin
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

"Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1161403250.235693.165020@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Dan McEwen wrote:
>> "Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in
>> news:1161353759.329467.52380@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
>> > These things are predetermined and they make our ultimate choices
>> > inevitable. So we don't really have free will.
>>
>> I disagree. I'm an atheist
>
> I didn't say "predetermined by God". There's a difference between
> "predetermined" and "planned". How you are is how you are. Doesn't
> mean anybody made you that way.

I still disagree, but this isn't an argument that can be proven on
either side.

--
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain
occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive." --Thomas Jefferson

"How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying
to defend from without?" --Dwight D. Eisenhower
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

Dan McEwen wrote:

>"Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in
>news:1161353759.329467.52380@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>>Dan McEwen wrote:
>>
>>
> But our choices are all based on our beliefs, our
>
>
>>personal preferences, our sense of morality and our future plans.
>>These things are predetermined and they make our ultimate choices
>>inevitable. So we don't really have free will.
>>
>>
>
>I disagree. I'm an atheist,
>
Atheism is as much of a religion as any other. The firm belief that
there are no higher powers is based on the same evidence that those who
believe there 'are' higher powers. At least I can think of various
reasons why somebody would believe in higher powers, can't really think
of any why someone wouldn't (except the obvious one that's first on both
lists, stupidity, but that's generally an insult and I wasn't really
planning on randomly insutling someone)

Fallen.
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

William George Ferguson wrote:

>On 20 Oct 2006 19:27:37 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroboy.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>William George Ferguson <wmgfrgsn.RemoveThis@newsguy.com> wrote in
>>news:s62ij2lrln0v51pr3hbp52q0s8ia0bam3k@4ax.com:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Since nobody else has taken the bait of the subject title, I will.
>>>
>>>Various devoutly religious characters in Marvel comics who have not
>>>been protrayed as bigots:
>>>
>>>Rahne Sinclair (Presbyterian)
>>>
>>>
>>Actually, she has been, at least early on. She thought Illyana was
>>doomed to Hell for being a witch and actively disliked her.
>>
>>
>
>Not so much bigoted as 'holier than thou', and that got less so after Sam
>chewed her out over it on the bus to the Massachusetts Academy (and it
>wasn't 'Yanna being a witch that bothered her, it was 'Yanna being a demon
>master).
>
>
>
>>>Bonita Jaurez (Roman Catholic)
>>>Sam Guthrie (Baptist)
>>>Kurt Wagner (Roman Catholic)
>>>Katherine Pryde (Jewish)
>>>Illyana Rasputinovna (Atheist)
>>>
>>>
>>Do we know this for a fact? Sure, people in the Soviet Union were
>>"officially" atheists, but it's hardly a secret that religion didn't
>>disappear but instead went underground.
>>
>>
>
>Illyana self-identified as 'atheist' several times. It didn't make a lot
>of sense, since she had been raised on a Soviet Commune until she was about
>six, then spent the next six or seven years in Limbo, and was with the
>X-folks after returning from limbo (so not really any time to imprint
>soviet cultural religious beliefs), but there you are.
>
>It also created an interesting dichotomy, since she was a practicing
>atheist who knew darned well that hell and demons existed.
>
>
Surely a larger problem was that she had met Thor? And was likely aware
that in the MU most of the various Gods have actually shown up. I think
only 'God' hasn't made an appearance and that's probably because comics
are primarily American.

Fallen.
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

Dan McEwen wrote:
> Fallen <fallen.DeleteThis@ntlworld.com> wrote in
> news:Wzu_g.8657$iq4.6685@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net:
>
> > Dan McEwen wrote:
> >
> >>"Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in
> >>news:1161353759.329467.52380@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Dan McEwen wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >> But our choices are all based on our beliefs, our
> >>
> >>
> >>>personal preferences, our sense of morality and our future plans.
> >>>These things are predetermined and they make our ultimate choices
> >>>inevitable. So we don't really have free will.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>I disagree. I'm an atheist,
> >>
> > Atheism is as much of a religion as any other. The firm belief that
> > there are no higher powers is based on the same evidence that those
> > who believe there 'are' higher powers.
>
> I'll disagree. I hate to get into this, but: show me a deity.

The point of religion is faith. If you have to see you don't have
faith. But I'd also like to point out with our limited understanding
of the universe who could really know what a deity is?

JLB
>
> --
> "The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain
> occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive." --Thomas Jefferson
>
> "How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying
> to defend from without?" --Dwight D. Eisenhower
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

Fallen wrote:
> Dan McEwen wrote:
>
> Atheism is as much of a religion as any other. The firm belief that
> there are no higher powers is based on the same evidence that those who
> believe there 'are' higher powers. At least I can think of various
> reasons why somebody would believe in higher powers, can't really think
> of any why someone wouldn't

There are two types of people in the world: religious people and
intelligent people. And there's zero overlap. This can easily be
shown: religious people believe in what they are told, not what they
see. This is the death of intelligence, of independent thought.
Intelligent people, on the other hand, think for themselves and
therefore do not automatically proscribe to any preset beliefs: as the
only reason to believe in a diety is because somebody else says you
should (or else you will go to hell, for example), intelligent people
do not proscribe to any religion. Hence no religious people are
intelligent and no intelligent people are religious. QED.

Martin
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

William George Ferguson wrote:

> Illyana self-identified as 'atheist' several times. It didn't make a lot
> of sense, since she had been raised on a Soviet Commune until she was about
> six, then spent the next six or seven years in Limbo, and was with the
> X-folks after returning from limbo (so not really any time to imprint
> soviet cultural religious beliefs), but there you are.
>
> It also created an interesting dichotomy, since she was a practicing
> atheist who knew darned well that hell and demons existed.

She knew Limbo existed. And she knew that people's souls didn't go
there when they died. Which is kind of significant.

What I find odd is that Hela' Hel and Satan's Hell are presumably not
the same place in Marvel Comics. Which one is the real afterlife? Or
is Hel just where dead Asgardians go?

Martin
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

Fallen <fallen RemoveThis @ntlworld.com> wrote in
news:Wzu_g.8657$iq4.6685@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net:

> Dan McEwen wrote:
>
>>"Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in
>>news:1161353759.329467.52380@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Dan McEwen wrote:
>>>
>>>
>> But our choices are all based on our beliefs, our
>>
>>
>>>personal preferences, our sense of morality and our future plans.
>>>These things are predetermined and they make our ultimate choices
>>>inevitable. So we don't really have free will.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I disagree. I'm an atheist,
>>
> Atheism is as much of a religion as any other. The firm belief that
> there are no higher powers is based on the same evidence that those
> who believe there 'are' higher powers.

I'll disagree. I hate to get into this, but: show me a deity.

--
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain
occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive." --Thomas Jefferson

"How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying
to defend from without?" --Dwight D. Eisenhower
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

Fallen wrote:

> That's not the point. To firmly disbelieve in something is just as much
> about blind faith as to firmly believe in something. When the
> 'something' in question sis a higher power, by definition something
> extremely difficult to prove and generally beyond current human
> understanding, then blind faith either way is rather silly.
>
> I think that in all likelihood there are no higher powers but Atheism
> asks for me to remove the 'in all likelihood' and categorically state
> that there aren't. In a real discussion on the subject that requires
> equal amounts of arrogance and stupidity.

Not necessarily. It's sort of like the story of the boy who cried
wolf. If people are known liars then it doesn't require arrogance or
stupidity to disbelieve them. On the contrary, it would require
stupidity to believe them.

Martin
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics