Religious characters are always bigots in comics

Fallen <fallen DeleteThis @ntlworld.com> wrote in
news:LfG_g.33028$L.6819@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net:

> Dan McEwen wrote:

>>
>>I'll disagree. I hate to get into this, but: show me a deity.
>>
>
> That's not the point. To firmly disbelieve in something is just as
> much about blind faith as to firmly believe in something. When the
> 'something' in question sis a higher power, by definition something
> extremely difficult to prove and generally beyond current human
> understanding, then blind faith either way is rather silly.

It's not blind faith. I don't claim omniscience in the matter, but I do
lack the belief.

> I think that in all likelihood there are no higher powers but Atheism
> asks for me to remove the 'in all likelihood' and categorically state
> that there aren't. In a real discussion on the subject that requires
> equal amounts of arrogance and stupidity.

Actually, it doesn't ask that. There's no guiding principle for atheism
that requires anything of you.

--
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain
occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive." --Thomas Jefferson

"How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying
to defend from without?" --Dwight D. Eisenhower
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

"Nathan P. Mahney" <nmahney DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in
news:453b2a19$0$23136$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au:

> Well, there's Reverend Conover, who showed up in Uncanny X-Men
> #232-234. Not a bigot, not a superhero, but definitely religious.

Also, Father Bowen, who knows Nightcrawler and is the uncle of Dagger.

--
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain
occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive." --Thomas Jefferson

"How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying
to defend from without?" --Dwight D. Eisenhower
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

"Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1161486875.855976.140780@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

> There are two types of people in the world: religious people and
> intelligent people. And there's zero overlap. This can easily be
> shown: religious people believe in what they are told, not what they
> see. This is the death of intelligence, of independent thought.
> Intelligent people, on the other hand, think for themselves and
> therefore do not automatically proscribe to any preset beliefs: as the
> only reason to believe in a diety is because somebody else says you
> should (or else you will go to hell, for example), intelligent people
> do not proscribe to any religion. Hence no religious people are
> intelligent and no intelligent people are religious. QED.

I don't know that I entirely agree with that. I think a large part of
faith is that it's comforting to that that you'll end up someplace safe
in the end, and be reunited with those you've lost along the way. And,
from that standpoint, it's certainly tantalizing. But then there's the
other side: follow the rules or else! Not that either of these things
played into me being an atheist, but I can see why they might play into
being a theist. But, yeah, I definitely require evidence, and a few
books that aren't shown to [necessarily] be historically accurate (or
even consistent within themselves) don't cut it for me.

--
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain
occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive." --Thomas Jefferson

"How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying
to defend from without?" --Dwight D. Eisenhower
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

"Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1161487450.658712.156360@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> William George Ferguson wrote:
>
>> Illyana self-identified as 'atheist' several times. It didn't make a
>> lot of sense, since she had been raised on a Soviet Commune until she
>> was about six, then spent the next six or seven years in Limbo, and
>> was with the X-folks after returning from limbo (so not really any
>> time to imprint soviet cultural religious beliefs), but there you
>> are.
>>
>> It also created an interesting dichotomy, since she was a practicing
>> atheist who knew darned well that hell and demons existed.
>
> She knew Limbo existed. And she knew that people's souls didn't go
> there when they died. Which is kind of significant.
>
> What I find odd is that Hela' Hel and Satan's Hell are presumably not
> the same place in Marvel Comics. Which one is the real afterlife? Or
> is Hel just where dead Asgardians go?

What about Mephisto, Satannish, and others like them? They're all
lesser demons compared to the likes of Chthon and the Elder Gods, but
the Elder Gods don't appear to have any special control over the
afterlife of individual souls. I think it's just that certain beings
have the ability to take souls and choose to do so for unknown reasons -
either good or bad. (After all, would you say that sending a Viking to
Valhalla would be a bad thing?) I think there is no "real" afterlife in
the MU. Plus, we've seen Death use the dead for her own bidding,
regardless of which demon or god may have claimed them.

--
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain
occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive." --Thomas Jefferson

"How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying
to defend from without?" --Dwight D. Eisenhower
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

"Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1161487450.658712.156360@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> William George Ferguson wrote:
>
> > Illyana self-identified as 'atheist' several times. It didn't make a
lot
> > of sense, since she had been raised on a Soviet Commune until she was
about
> > six, then spent the next six or seven years in Limbo, and was with the
> > X-folks after returning from limbo (so not really any time to imprint
> > soviet cultural religious beliefs), but there you are.
> >
> > It also created an interesting dichotomy, since she was a practicing
> > atheist who knew darned well that hell and demons existed.
>
> She knew Limbo existed. And she knew that people's souls didn't go
> there when they died. Which is kind of significant.
>
> What I find odd is that Hela' Hel and Satan's Hell are presumably not
> the same place in Marvel Comics. Which one is the real afterlife? Or
> is Hel just where dead Asgardians go?

My current working theory: dead Asgardians go to Hel, as do those who have
their souls claimed by Hela - practising worshipers of the Norse gods might
go there as well. The same applies to Hell and Mephisto/Satan. Everyone
else goes to the White Hot Room to get reincarnated. No doubt there are big
holes in this, but I'm sticking to it until someone comes along to shoot it
down.

- Nathan P. Mahney -
http://www.thecomicnerd.com
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

Fallen <fallen.TakeThisOut@ntlworld.com> wrote in
news:9PS_g.13138$aZ3.10143@newsfe2-win.ntli.net:

> The Black Guardian wrote:

>>Athiests are not looking to prove a negative. They're searching for
>>proof at all, and finding none.
>>
> Which makes them rather stupid doesn't it as there's plenty of
> evidence for a higher power as explained by those people who believe
> in higher powers.

"Evidence"? Sorry, but a book does not constitute evidence. Or do you
have something other than faith?

Coming to the absolute conclusion that there isn't one based on
> either lots of evidence or no evidence, depending on your way of
> thinking, is blind faith. Blind faith is religion.

Which is why, though you cut it out, that absolute belief in a lack of a
deity isn't required for an atheist. That's just your idea about it.

--
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain
occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive." --Thomas Jefferson

"How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying
to defend from without?" --Dwight D. Eisenhower
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

Fallen wrote:
> The Black Guardian wrote:
>
> >Athiests are not looking to prove a negative. They're searching for
> >proof at all, and finding none.
> >
> Which makes them rather stupid doesn't it as there's plenty of evidence
> for a higher power as explained by those people who believe in higher
> powers.

I've heard that argument before and when I ask "What evidence?" people
get indignant and say that they don't need evidence because they have
faith: they _know_ God exists because they can "feel his presence".
They claim that they see evidence for God everywhere. That means
bugger all. I look everywhere and see things I can explain with
science. It's the difference between looking around with your eyes
open and seeing the world as it is as opposed to closing them and then
claiming that you can see God. So who's being stupid?

> Coming to the absolute conclusion that there isn't one based on
> either lots of evidence or no evidence, depending on your way of
> thinking, is blind faith. Blind faith is religion.

Blind faith that God doesn't exist? It's true that you can't prove a
negative but you can't have blind faith in a negative either. Is there
a difference between refusing to take someone to a hospital because you
believe that you need to show God your faith in the value of prayer and
taking somebody to a hospital because you don't believe that prayer
will work? Absolutely. Nobody is going to tell somebody not to pray:
an atheist doesn't believe that prayer is bad, only that it is a waste
of time. At best, it merely gives comfort to those who want to help
but feel they can't do anything else. Now, that being the case, if I
saw the doctor praying then I would defintely start to worry.

Martin
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

Fallen wrote:
> William George Ferguson wrote:
>>>> Illyana Rasputinovna (Atheist)
>> It also created an interesting dichotomy, since she was a practicing
>> atheist who knew darned well that hell and demons existed.
> Surely a larger problem was that she had met Thor? And was likely aware
> that in the MU most of the various Gods have actually shown up. I think
> only 'God' hasn't made an appearance and that's probably because comics
> are primarily American.

How would "God" have appeared if it was done in Europe? I would have figured that it would
have appeared less there, given how Europeans seems to either take religion for a more
non-issue where they are born into but don't really feel that the Hand of God is going to
help them out right then and there. Or they are more radicalized, though that may be more
in the European media hyping the radical islamists agenda.


--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For within these Trials, we
shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

~consul wrote:
> Fallen wrote:
> > I think
> > only 'God' hasn't made an appearance and that's probably because comics
> > are primarily American.
>
> How would "God" have appeared if it was done in Europe?

I think he means as opposed to Japanese comics. In Japanese comics, if
a character is called the "Sky God" then it would be understood to
Japanese people that this would be the Western God and this could be
considered blasphemous to Christians and Muslims, except that they
probably don't think of God as being an old Japanese man with a long
beard. On the other hand most people don't imagine God as a black
man (as in Bruce Almighty), a short Jewish man (as in Oh God) or a
Canadian female rock singer (as in Dogma) so maybe the trick is to go
against the way God is normally imagined if you want to skirt
accusations of blasphemy.

Martin
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics 

~consul wrote:

> Fallen wrote:
>
>> William George Ferguson wrote:
>>
>>>>> Illyana Rasputinovna (Atheist)
>>>>
>>> It also created an interesting dichotomy, since she was a practicing
>>> atheist who knew darned well that hell and demons existed.
>>
>> Surely a larger problem was that she had met Thor? And was likely
>> aware that in the MU most of the various Gods have actually shown up.
>> I think only 'God' hasn't made an appearance and that's probably
>> because comics are primarily American.
>
>
> How would "God" have appeared if it was done in Europe? I would have
> figured that it would have appeared less there, given how Europeans
> seems to either take religion for a more non-issue where they are born
> into but don't really feel that the Hand of God is going to help them
> out right then and there. Or they are more radicalized, though that
> may be more in the European media hyping the radical islamists agenda.
>
>
I kinda meant that the judeo christian (?) religion plays a bigger part
in America a lot of other countries and I'd guess that a lot of comic
readers come from the red states where people are more likely to make a
fuss over any kind of blasphemy. So instead the 'gods' used are the
European and Asian pantheons.

Fallen.
 >> Stay informed about: Religious characters are always bigots in comics