Return of the King - crowning of Aragorn

On 24 Feb 2005 09:45:51 -0800, "Richard Fangnail"
<richardfangnail DeleteThis @excite.com> wrote:
 >
 >BTW, I thought a steward guarded a throne when there was no king.

Not necessarily: only in Gondor and Scotland.

 >But since there was now a king, why did Gondor need a steward???

To take care of things while the king is busy being kingly, like the
Lord High Steward of England.


the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat@pobox.com
--
Whoever said nothing is impossible never tried slamming a
revolving door.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Return of the King - crowning of Aragorn 

"the softrat" <softrat.DeleteThis@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:c1is11hmhe84dm6mtmmrm76pvm686fj2r0@4ax.com...
 > On 24 Feb 2005 09:45:51 -0800, "Richard Fangnail"
 > <richardfangnail.DeleteThis@excite.com> wrote:
  >>
  >>BTW, I thought a steward guarded a throne when there was no king.
 >
 > Not necessarily: only in Gondor and Scotland.
 >
  >>But since there was now a king, why did Gondor need a steward???
 >
 > To take care of things while the king is busy being kingly, like the
 > Lord High Steward of England.

I often suspected that Tolkien was inspired in creating the hereditary
Stewards of Gondor by the historical High Stewards of Scotland. Walter fitz
Alan, who was descended a line of hereditary stewarts or dapifers in Celtic
Brittany, was appointed High Steward King David I of Scotland in the 12th
century.

His grandson, Walter, was the third High Steward and the one who adopted his
title as a surname and is known as Walter Stewart. Eventually, the Stewarts
became the ruling Stewart or Stuart dynasty of Scotland and England; James
VI of Scotland became the James I of England, following the death of
Elizabeth I.

--
Frank in Seattle

___________

Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney

"I leave you now in radiant contentment"
-- "Whistling in the Dark"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Return of the King - crowning of Aragorn 

"Richard Fangnail" <richardfangnail DeleteThis @excite.com> wrote in message
news:1109267151.729684.244570@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
 > There appears to be a dwarf standing near Aragorn. Is that Gimli?

Yes.

 > There are shots of Gimli later on but it's not clear if he's standing
 > near Aragorn or in the crowd.
 >
 > In the book, it was Faramir who handed the crown to Aragorn which is
 > good because Faramir was then the Steward of Gondor.

Faramir handed it to Frodo, who brought it to Aragorn and Gandalf, who
crowned Aragorn (at the latter's request).
 >
 > BTW, I thought a steward guarded a throne when there was no king. But
 > since there was now a king, why did Gondor need a steward???

Because the King was also King of Anorien, and would be up there a lot of
the time, and so needed someone to mind the shop while he was away. Also,
he needed to keep Faramir on side, one reason (of several) for making him
Prince of Ithilien.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Return of the King - crowning of Aragorn 

 > BTW, I thought a steward guarded a throne when there was no king. But
 > since there was now a king, why did Gondor need a steward???

Well, technically at this point, there was still a steward and no king.
As soon as the coronation was complete, THEN there'd be a king. But that
didn't mean that Faramir would evaporate: or go back in time and *not*
give him the crown, because at some point in the future he would no
longer be a steward.

I'm missing the point of the entire question though. The post of steward
didn't go away when there was a king. It's just that one of the jobs of
the steward was to rule in the king's place: not that having a king
meant no steward. Otherwise, why have two seats?

Think of him as "vice president"

--cd<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Return of the King - crowning of Aragorn 

How about keeping brain dead crap like this in the brain dead crap groups
where it belongs?
 >> Stay informed about: Return of the King - crowning of Aragorn 

the softrat wrote:

 > On 24 Feb 2005 09:45:51 -0800, "Richard Fangnail"
 > <richardfangnail.TakeThisOut@excite.com> wrote:
 >
  >>BTW, I thought a steward guarded a throne when there was no king.
 >
 >
 > Not necessarily: only in Gondor and Scotland.
 >
 >
  >>But since there was now a king, why did Gondor need a steward???
 >
 >
 > To take care of things while the king is busy being kingly, like the
 > Lord High Steward of England.

Precisely. And one should remember from the appendices that a steward
existed BEFORE the last king of Gondor died leaving no heir.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Return of the King - crowning of Aragorn 

Frank R.A.J. Maloney wrote:

 > "the softrat" <softrat.RemoveThis@pobox.com> wrote in message
 > news:c1is11hmhe84dm6mtmmrm76pvm686fj2r0@4ax.com...
 >
  >>On 24 Feb 2005 09:45:51 -0800, "Richard Fangnail"
  >><richardfangnail.RemoveThis@excite.com> wrote:
  >>
   >>>BTW, I thought a steward guarded a throne when there was no king.
  >>
  >>Not necessarily: only in Gondor and Scotland.
  >>
  >>
   >>>But since there was now a king, why did Gondor need a steward???
  >>
  >>To take care of things while the king is busy being kingly, like the
  >>Lord High Steward of England.
 >
 >
 > I often suspected that Tolkien was inspired in creating the hereditary
 > Stewards of Gondor by the historical High Stewards of Scotland. Walter fitz
 > Alan, who was descended a line of hereditary stewarts or dapifers in Celtic
 > Brittany, was appointed High Steward King David I of Scotland in the 12th
 > century.
 >
 > His grandson, Walter, was the third High Steward and the one who adopted his
 > title as a surname and is known as Walter Stewart. Eventually, the Stewarts
 > became the ruling Stewart or Stuart dynasty of Scotland and England; James
 > VI of Scotland became the James I of England, following the death of
 > Elizabeth I.


Possibly, but I very much doubt it. The steward existed as an office in
England as well in the 12th century, and the office of High Steward in
the late middle ages and early modern period had the express function of
holding the crown and governing until the coronation of the next
monarch==exactly parallel to the Stewards of Gondor. ALl this before
the Stuarts.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Return of the King - crowning of Aragorn 

 > Also, in the books, Aragorn made Faramir Prince of ithilien...

Good point.

--cd<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Return of the King - crowning of Aragorn 

Richard Fangnail wrote:
 >
 > In the book, it was Faramir who handed the crown to Aragorn which is
 > good because Faramir was then the Steward of Gondor.

Faramir handed the crown to Frodo, who in turn handed it to Gandalf who
placed it on Aragorn's head.
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Return of the King - crowning of Aragorn 

"Frank R.A.J. Maloney" <frajm.RemoveThis@blarg.net> wrote in message
news:111spduik86lu8a@corp.supernews.com...
 > "the softrat" <softrat.RemoveThis@pobox.com> wrote in message
 > news:c1is11hmhe84dm6mtmmrm76pvm686fj2r0@4ax.com...
  >> On 24 Feb 2005 09:45:51 -0800, "Richard Fangnail"
  >> <richardfangnail.RemoveThis@excite.com> wrote:
   >>>
   >>>BTW, I thought a steward guarded a throne when there was no king.
  >>
  >> Not necessarily: only in Gondor and Scotland.
  >>
   >>>But since there was now a king, why did Gondor need a steward???
  >>
  >> To take care of things while the king is busy being kingly, like the
  >> Lord High Steward of England.
 >
 > I often suspected that Tolkien was inspired in creating the hereditary
 > Stewards of Gondor by the historical High Stewards of Scotland. Walter
 > fitz Alan, who was descended a line of hereditary stewarts or dapifers in
 > Celtic Brittany, was appointed High Steward King David I of Scotland in
 > the 12th century.
 >
 > His grandson, Walter, was the third High Steward and the one who adopted
 > his title as a surname and is known as Walter Stewart. Eventually, the
 > Stewarts became the ruling Stewart or Stuart dynasty of Scotland and
 > England; James VI of Scotland became the James I of England, following the
 > death of Elizabeth I.
 >
In which we see the main difference between Scotland and Gondor: in Gondor
the Stewards remained Stewards, ruling only in the name of the King--even
though they no longer believed the King would return.
Barbara

 > --
 > Frank in Seattle
 >
 > ___________
 >
 > Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
 >
 > "I leave you now in radiant contentment"
 > -- "Whistling in the Dark"
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Return of the King - crowning of Aragorn