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phred

External


Since: Apr 22, 2004
Posts: 8



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:44 pm
Post subject: Reverse points?
Archived from groups: rec>collecting>books (more info?)

Things have been a bit slow here, and it's a gloomy day outside, so maybe
it's time for me to step out of the shadows and post something.

When I was in graduate school, a friend introduced me to the works of
Robertson Davies (she said The Rebel Angels got her through her first year
at Yale), and I started reading everything by him that I could find.

In Tempest Tost, his first novel, I ran across this description of student
teaching: "Many students who were impeccable in the theoretical side of
their work broke down badly in model-teaching.... A girl, attempting to tell
a class some apocryphal stories about the early musical development of the
young Handel, lost her nerve and spoke thirty-seven times of 'the
harpsichord', which, as she had never seen or heard the instrument in
question, was not altogether surprising." (King Penguin edition, pg. 80)

This always puzzled me, since there didn't seem to be anything wrong with
it. When I tracked down a first edition, I looked up that passage and found
that she had spoken of "the harpischord." (Clarke Irwin, p. 117; also
spelled that way in the US and UK firsts.) Obviously some well-meaning
editor (or typesetter?) changed it, not realizing that it rendered that
sentence meaningless, and nobody has bothered to correct it in subsequent
printings.

I've generally heard that a point is a *mistake* that has been corrected in
a later edition (though Carter's ABC just says "any peculiarity in a book
whose presence in or absence from a particular copy calls for note"). What
about a "mistake" that is mistakenly corrected in a later edition? Is this a
reverse point?

And finally, does anyone know of similar mistakes, mistakenly corrected?

Phred

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mjadams25

External


Since: Mar 30, 2004
Posts: 367



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 12:09 am
Post subject: Re: Reverse points? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Phred" <phred RemoveThis @ispwest.com> wrote in message
news:cihvm3010eu@enews1.newsguy.com...
 > Things have been a bit slow here, and it's a gloomy day outside, so maybe
 > it's time for me to step out of the shadows and post something.
 >

<snip>

 >
 > I've generally heard that a point is a *mistake* that has been corrected
in
 > a later edition (though Carter's ABC just says "any peculiarity in a book
 > whose presence in or absence from a particular copy calls for note").


....

No. As Carter notes, a point is anything which enables a collector,
or any other interested party for that matter, to distinguish one
particular
copy of a book from another. And furthermore, because most editions or
printings of books are fairly uniform, points are most often used in
distinguishing one printing or edition - most often the first, from
another. Although points are also discovered which indicate differences
between copies in what were formerly regarded as being the same edition
or printing.
Points can be textual - not simply mistakes and typos, but substituted
words - typographical, where a subtle change has been made in the spacing
of one or two lines, or where there's evidence of broken type - binding -
where the colour of the cloth is different - or paper - where different
types of paper were used. Etc,etc. Although the latter are merely
circumstantial - a difference in paper or binding wouldn't necessarily
indicate a different printing or edition without corroborating evidence.
In fact, almost any detail which can be altered to the slightest degree
in the production process of a book, can function as a point.

....

 > What
 > about a "mistake" that is mistakenly corrected in a later edition? Is
this a
 > reverse point?
 >


No. For the reasons given.

....

 > And finally, does anyone know of similar mistakes, mistakenly corrected?
 >

....

An interesting question.

....

 > Phred
 >
 >

....

michael adams

....<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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mjadams25

External


Since: Mar 30, 2004
Posts: 367



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 12:22 am
Post subject: Re: Reverse points? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Phred" <phred.DeleteThis@ispwest.com> wrote in message
news:cihvm3010eu@enews1.newsguy.com...
 > Things have been a bit slow here, and it's a gloomy day outside, so maybe
 > it's time for me to step out of the shadows and post something.
 >

<snip>

 >
 > I've generally heard that a point is a *mistake* that has been corrected
in
 > a later edition (though Carter's ABC just says "any peculiarity in a book
 > whose presence in or absence from a particular copy calls for note").


....

No. As Carter notes, a point is anything which enables a collector,
or any other interested party for that matter, to distinguish one
particular
copy of a book from another. And furthermore, because most editions or
printings of books are fairly uniform, points are most often used in
distinguishing one printing or edition - most often the first, from
another. Although points are also discovered which indicate differences
between copies in what were formerly regarded as being the same edition
or printing.
Points can be textual - not simply mistakes and typos, but substituted
words - typographical, where a subtle change has been made in the spacing
of one or two lines, or where there's evidence of broken type - binding -
where the colour of the cloth is different - or paper - where different
types of paper were used. Etc,etc. Although the latter are merely
circumstantial - a difference in paper or binding wouldn't necessarily
indicate a different printing or edition without corroborating evidence.
In fact, almost any detail which can be altered to the slightest degree
in the production process of a book, can function as a point.

Aside from edition statements, the most obvious example of a deliberate
"point" in most modern day books is probably the number line which can
usually be found on the copyright page. Which is usually changed with
each subsequent printing and\or edition. And which is sometimes the
only thing to change.

Dust jackets themselves can have points. Although in the case of d/j's
because these are separate from the book itself, the edition points of
the d/j apply to that alone. And not to the accompanying book.


....

 > What
 > about a "mistake" that is mistakenly corrected in a later edition? Is
this a
 > reverse point?
 >


No. For the reasons given.

....

 > And finally, does anyone know of similar mistakes, mistakenly corrected?
 >

....

An interesting question.

....

 > Phred
 >
 >

....

michael adams

....<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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cathnjonyour

External


Since: Jun 24, 2003
Posts: 232



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:25 am
Post subject: Re: Reverse points? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Phred" wrote...
 > And finally, does anyone know of similar mistakes, mistakenly corrected?

It's not from a book, but the funniest example I know of of this kind of
thing was related by the historian Jacques Barzun, in an article in The
American Scholar. Barzun was writing about his frustrations with editors
and cited an earlier article, for a different journal, in which he had
referred to the then-current year being the 50th anniversary of the creation
of the character Donald Duck. Upon publication, he was distressed to
discover that "Donald Duck" had been changed to "Mickey Mouse" (who predates
DD by a few years). The explanation offered by the editor, when asked why he
had turned a simple statement of fact into a plain error, was that, "More
people have heard of Mickey Mouse."


--
Jon Meyers
(To reply, lose
your way)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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cathnjonyour

External


Since: Jun 24, 2003
Posts: 232



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:28 am
Post subject: Re: Reverse points? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Jon Meyers" wrote...
 > "Phred" wrote...
  > > And finally, does anyone know of similar mistakes, mistakenly corrected?
 >
 > [snippage] ...The explanation offered by the editor, when asked why he
 > had turned a simple statement of fact into a plain error, was that, "More
 > people have heard of Mickey Mouse."

Okay, it's not at all an example of an intentional mistake mistakenly
corrected, but I just wanted to tell that story...


--
Jon Meyers
(To reply, lose
your way)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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ubique

External


Since: Aug 25, 2004
Posts: 9



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:38 am
Post subject: Re: Reverse points? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Phred wrote:
 >
 > Things have been a bit slow here, and it's a gloomy day outside, so maybe
 > it's time for me to step out of the shadows and post something.
 >
 > When I was in graduate school, a friend introduced me to the works of
 > Robertson Davies (she said The Rebel Angels got her through her first year
 > at Yale), and I started reading everything by him that I could find.
 >
 > In Tempest Tost, his first novel, I ran across this description of student
 > teaching: "Many students who were impeccable in the theoretical side of
 > their work broke down badly in model-teaching.... A girl, attempting to tell
 > a class some apocryphal stories about the early musical development of the
 > young Handel, lost her nerve and spoke thirty-seven times of 'the
 > harpsichord', which, as she had never seen or heard the instrument in
 > question, was not altogether surprising." (King Penguin edition, pg. 80)
 >
 > This always puzzled me, since there didn't seem to be anything wrong with
 > it. When I tracked down a first edition, I looked up that passage and found
 > that she had spoken of "the harpischord." (Clarke Irwin, p. 117; also
 > spelled that way in the US and UK firsts.) Obviously some well-meaning
 > editor (or typesetter?) changed it, not realizing that it rendered that
 > sentence meaningless, and nobody has bothered to correct it in subsequent
 > printings.
 >
 > I've generally heard that a point is a *mistake* that has been corrected in
 > a later edition (though Carter's ABC just says "any peculiarity in a book
 > whose presence in or absence from a particular copy calls for note"). What
 > about a "mistake" that is mistakenly corrected in a later edition? Is this a
 > reverse point?
 >
 > And finally, does anyone know of similar mistakes, mistakenly corrected?
 >
 > Phred

Please enlighten me as to what a harpischord is.

Tom<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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tttnospam1

External


Since: Sep 04, 2003
Posts: 199



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:38 am
Post subject: Re: Reverse points? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Tom" <ubique RemoveThis @mail.com> wrote in message news:414C8E98.DE641996@mail.com...
 > Phred wrote:
  > >
 >
 > Please enlighten me as to what a harpischord is.
 >
 > Tom

It's the girl's ignorant mispronunciation of harpsichord. That's the point
of Phred's observation. A copy-editor fixed it along the way, and now
recent texts do not provide this evidence that the girl didn't know her
subject.

- Todd T.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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ubique

External


Since: Aug 25, 2004
Posts: 9



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:01 am
Post subject: Re: Reverse points? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Todd T wrote:
 >
 > "Tom" <ubique.DeleteThis@mail.com> wrote in message news:414C8E98.DE641996@mail.com...
  > > Phred wrote:
   > > >
  > >
  > > Please enlighten me as to what a harpischord is.
  > >
  > > Tom
 >
 > It's the girl's ignorant mispronunciation of harpsichord. That's the point
 > of Phred's observation. A copy-editor fixed it along the way, and now
 > recent texts do not provide this evidence that the girl didn't know her
 > subject.
 >
 > - Todd T.

How do you know?

Tom<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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tttnospam1

External


Since: Sep 04, 2003
Posts: 199



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:01 am
Post subject: Re: Reverse points? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Tom" <ubique.RemoveThis@mail.com> wrote in message news:414C9414.45625823@mail.com...
 > Todd T wrote:
  > >
  > > "Tom" <ubique.RemoveThis@mail.com> wrote in message
news:414C8E98.DE641996@mail.com...
   > > > Phred wrote:
   > > > >
   > > >
   > > > Please enlighten me as to what a harpischord is.
   > > >
   > > > Tom
  > >
  > > It's the girl's ignorant mispronunciation of harpsichord. That's the
point
  > > of Phred's observation. A copy-editor fixed it along the way, and now
  > > recent texts do not provide this evidence that the girl didn't know her
  > > subject.
  > >
  > > - Todd T.
 >
 > How do you know?
 >
 > Tom

The text makes sense one way, and not the other. I guess I can't know for
absolute certain, but I think I can settle for what seems obvious to me.

- TT<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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phred

External


Since: Apr 22, 2004
Posts: 8



(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:01 am
Post subject: Re: Reverse points? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Tom" <ubique.TakeThisOut@mail.com> wrote in message news:414C9414.45625823@mail.com...
 > Todd T wrote:
  > >
  > > "Tom" <ubique.TakeThisOut@mail.com> wrote in message
news:414C8E98.DE641996@mail.com...
   > > > Phred wrote:
   > > > >
   > > >
   > > > Please enlighten me as to what a harpischord is.
   > > >
   > > > Tom
  > >
  > > It's the girl's ignorant mispronunciation of harpsichord. That's the
point
  > > of Phred's observation. A copy-editor fixed it along the way, and now
  > > recent texts do not provide this evidence that the girl didn't know her
  > > subject.
  > >
  > > - Todd T.
 >
 > How do you know?
 >
 > Tom

Mainly because Davies is telling about students who made mistakes during
their
practice teaching. I left out the student "who had almost overcome a severe
case
of inherited bad English, lost his nerve and addressed his first class as
'youse'," and
the girl who "burst into tears when no child volunteered to answer the first
question
she asked in a classroom." It seems reasonable that since she hadn't seen or
heard
one, she'd get its name wrong. I tend to mix up letters and words, too,
though,
fortunately, not in front of a class. Yet.

Also, because I can't think of anything else it would be. Oddly enough, a
Google
search brought up over 2900 hits for "harpischord," which shows that she
isn't alone.
Even amazon.com has a listing for a CD of Bach Sonatas for Violin and
Harpischord.

I suppose that it could be a harpsichord with the keyboard on the other
side.
Of course, they cost more... Smile

Phred<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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