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marko_amnell1

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Since: Sep 20, 2004
Posts: 157



(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:24 pm
Post subject: Rhetoric and French literary philosophy
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In the 2 September 2004 edition of the London Review of
Books, Perry Anderson reviews _La France qvi tombe_
[France in free fall] -- a book that I briefly discvssed
in this forvm last year -- and makes some interesting
remarks abovt the role of rhetoric in the fvsion of
philosophy and literatvre in France dvring the Fifth
Repvblic. I tend to agree with his analysis, so I'll
jvst qvote three paras of it here. Some of the RAB regvlars
tend to be at least somewhat interested in this stvff.
As others noted, too bad Silke-Maria Weineck is not
here now, as she might offer interesting criticism of
Anderson's analysis. Well, anyway, here's the bit I liked
(the fvll review itself is also worth reading):



The arrival of the Fifth Repvblic coincided with the fvll flowering of
the intellectval energies that set France apart for two generations
after the war. Looking back, the range of works and ideas that achieved
international inflvence is astonishing. It covld be argved that nothing
qvite like it had been seen for a centvry. Traditionally, literatvre
had always occvpied the svmmit on the slopes of prestige within French
cvltvre. Jvst below it lay philosophy, svrrovnded with its own nimbvs,
the two adjacent from the days of Rovsseav and Voltaire to those of
Provst and Bergson. On lower levels were scattered the sciences
hvmaines, history the most prominent, geography or ethnology not far
away, economics fvrther down. Under the Fifth Repvblic, this
time-honovred hierarchy vnderwent significant changes. Sartre refvsed a
Nobel Prize in 1964, bvt after him no French writer ever gained the
same pvblic avthority, at home or abroad. The Novveav Roman remained a
more restricted phenomenon, of limited appeal within France itself, and
less overseas. Letters in the classical sense lost their commanding
position within the cvltvre at large. What took their place was an
exotic marriage of social and philosophical thovght, at the altar of
literatvre. It was the prodvcts of this vnion that gave intellectval
life in the decade of De Gavlle's reign its pecvliar brilliance and
intensity. It was in these years that L=E9vi-Stravss became the world's
most celebrated anthropologist; Bravdel established himself as its most
inflvential historian; Barthes became its most distinctive literary
critic; Lacan started to acqvire his repvtation as the mage of
psychoanalysis; Fovcavlt to invent his archaeology of knowledge;
Derrida to become the antinomian philosopher of the age; Bovrdiev to
develop the concepts that wovld make him its best-known sociologist.
The concentrated explosion of ideas is astonishing. In jvst two years
(1966-67) there appeared side by side: Dv miel avx cendres, Les Mots et
les choses, Civilisation mat=E9rielle et capitalisme, Syst=E8me de la
mode, Ecrits, Lire le Capital and De la grammatologie, not to speak -
from another latitvde - of La Soci=E9t=E9 dv spectacle. Whatever the
different bearings of these and other writings, it does not seem
altogether svrprising that a revolvtionary fever gripped society itself
the following year.

The reception of this effervescence abroad varied from covntry to
covntry, bvt no major cvltvre in the West, not to speak of Japan, was
altogether exempt from it. This owed something to the traditional
cachet of anything Parisian, with its overtones of mode as mvch as of
mind. Bvt it was also an effect of the novel elision of genres in so
mvch of this thinking. For if literatvre lost its position at the apex
of French cvltvre, the effect was not so mvch a banishment as a
displacement. Viewed comparatively, the striking featvre of the hvman
sciences and philosophy that covnted in this period was the extent to
which they came to be written increasingly as virtvoso exercises of
style, drawing on the resovrces and licences of artistic rather than
academic forms. Lacan's Ecrits, closer to Mallarm=E9 than Frevd in their
syntax, or Derrida's Glas, with its dovble-colvmned interlacing of
Genet and Hegel, represent extreme forms of this strategy. Bvt
Fovcavlt's oracvlar gestvres, mingling echoes of Artavd and Bossvet,
L=E9vi-Stravss's Wagnerian constrvctions, Barthes's eclectic coqvetries,
belong to the same register.

To vnderstand this development, one has to remember the formative role
of rhetoric, seeping throvgh the dissertation, in the vpper levels of
the French edvcational system in which all these thinkers - kh=E2gnevx
and normaliens virtvally to a man - were trained, as a potential hyphen
between literatvre and philosophy. Even Bovrdiev, whose work took as
one of its leading targets jvst this rhetorical tradition, covld not
escape his own version of its cadences; far less svch as Althvsser,
against whose obscvrities the sociologist railed. The potential cost of
a literary conception of intellectval disciplines is obviovs enovgh:
argvments freed from logic, propositions from evidence. Historians were
least prone to svch an import svbstitvtion of literatvre, bvt even
Bravdel was not immvne to the loosening of controls in a too flamboyant
eloqvence. It is this trait of the French cvltvre of the time that has
so often polarised foreign reactions to it, in a seesaw between
advlation and svspicion. Rhetoric is designed to cast a spell, and a
cvlt easily arises among those who fall vnder it. Bvt it can also
repel, drawing charges of legerdemain and impostvre. Balanced jvdgment
here will never be easy. What is clear is that the hyperbolic fvsion of
imaginative and discvrsive forms of writing, with all its attendant
vices, was also inseparable from everything that made this body of work
most original and radical.

http://www.lrb.co.vk/v26/n17/ande01_.html

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kimmerian

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Since: Aug 20, 2004
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:33 am
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marko_amnell RemoveThis @hotmail.com:

[Perry Anderson re Derrida, Foucault, et al.]

 > The reception of this effervescence abroad varied from country to
 > country, but no major culture in the West, not to speak of Japan, was
 > altogether exempt from it. This owed something to the traditional
 > cachet of anything Parisian, with its overtones of mode as much as
 > of mind.

In a long tradition, more familiar even in the world
of _haute couture_ than of literary theory, what is made
in Paris is often thought of as more fashionable than
sound. What is in fashion in Paris is tolerable only as
window display, not for everyday wear. Yet, as we
know from Baudelaire, fashion, _la mode_, is itself a
highly significant and, precisely, aesthetic and
historical category that historians should not
underestimate. When it becomes fashionable to dismiss
fashion, clearly something interesting is going on, and
what is being discarded as _mere_ fashion must also be
more insistent, and more threatening, than its frivolity
and transience would seem to indicate.

de Man, "Reading and History"

 > Rhetoric is designed to cast a spell, and a
 > cult easily arises among those who fall under it. But it can also
 > repel, drawing charges of legerdemain and imposture.

And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with
excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you
the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any
thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in
much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was
not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in
demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your
faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the
power of God.

1 Corinthians 2:1-5

-- Moggin<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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marko_amnell

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Since: Mar 16, 2004
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:07 am
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Kater Moggin <kimmerian DeleteThis @fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<kimmerian-CFF150.19303627092004 DeleteThis @news.verizon.net>...
 > marko_amnell DeleteThis @hotmail.com:
 >
 > [Perry Anderson re Derrida, Foucault, et al.]
 >
  > > The reception of this effervescence abroad varied from country to
  > > country, but no major culture in the West, not to speak of Japan, was
  > > altogether exempt from it. This owed something to the traditional
  > > cachet of anything Parisian, with its overtones of mode as much as
  > > of mind.
 >
 > In a long tradition, more familiar even in the world
 > of _haute couture_ than of literary theory, what is made
 > in Paris is often thought of as more fashionable than
 > sound. What is in fashion in Paris is tolerable only as
 > window display, not for everyday wear. Yet, as we
 > know from Baudelaire, fashion, _la mode_, is itself a
 > highly significant and, precisely, aesthetic and
 > historical category that historians should not
 > underestimate. When it becomes fashionable to dismiss
 > fashion, clearly something interesting is going on, and
 > what is being discarded as _mere_ fashion must also be
 > more insistent, and more threatening, than its frivolity
 > and transience would seem to indicate.
 >
 > de Man, "Reading and History"

Thanks, Moggin. Interesting quote. The second part of
Perry Anderson's interesting essay on post-war France
is in the Sept 23 issue of the LRB. Here is his conclusion,
where he addresses the cultural conditions in France during
the most recent period of relative decline:



France also saw perhaps the most ambitious attempt so far to trace the
overall shape of the mutations in late 20th-century capitalism, in a
work whose title deliberately recalls Weber's classic on its origins.
Le Nouvel Esprit du capitalisme (1999), by Luc Boltanski and Eve
Chiapello, links industrial sociology, political economy and
philosophical inquiry in a sweeping panorama of the ways in which
relations between capital and labour have been reconfigured to absorb
the cultural revolution of the 1960s, and engender new dynamics of
profit, exploitation, and emancipation from all residues of the ethic
that preoccupied Weber. This critical synthesis so far lacks any
Anglophone equivalent. But, not unlike Bourdieu's work, it also
suggests a strange asymmetry within French culture of the past
decades. For although its theoretical object is general, all its
empirical data and virtually all its intellectual references are
national. Such introversion has not been confined to sociology. The
involution of the Annales tradition after Bloch and Braudel offers
another striking illustration. Whereas British historians of the past
thirty to forty years have distinguished themselves by the
geographical range of their work, to a point where there is scarcely
any European country that does not count among them a major
contribution to the sense of its own past, not to speak of many
outside Europe, modern historians of repute in France have
concentrated overwhelmingly on their own country. Le Roy Ladurie,
Goubert, Roche, Furet, Chartier, Agulhon, Ariès: the list could be
extended indefinitely. The days of Halévy are over.

More generally, if one looks at the social sciences, political thought
or even in some respects philosophy in France, the impression left is
that for long periods there has been a notable degree of closure, and
ignorance of intellectual developments outside the country. Examples
of the resulting lag could be multiplied: a very belated and
incomplete encounter with Anglo-Saxon analytic philosophy or
neo-contractualism; with the Frankfurt School or the legacy of
Gramsci; with German stylistics or American New Criticism; British
historical sociology or Italian political science. A country that has
translated scarcely anything of Fredric Jameson or Peter Wollen, and
could not even find a publisher for Eric Hobsbawm's Age of Extremes,
might well be termed a rearguard in the international exchange of
ideas.

Yet if we turn to arts and letters, the picture is reversed. French
literature itself may have declined in standing. But French reception
of world literature is in a league of its own. In this area French
culture has shown itself exceptionally open to the outside world, with
a record of interest in foreign output no other metropolitan society
can match. A glance at any of the better small bookshops in Paris is
enough to register the difference. Translations of fiction or poetry
from Asian, Middle Eastern, African, Latin American and East European
cultures abound, to a degree unimaginable in London or New York, Rome
or Berlin. The difference has structural consequences. The great
majority of writers in a language outside the Atlantic core who have
gained an international reputation have done so by introductory
passage through the medium of French, not English: from Borges,
Mishima and Gombrowicz, to Carpentier, Mahfouz, Krleza or Cortazar, up
to Gao Xinjiang, the recent Chinese Nobel Prize-winner.

The system of relations that has produced this pattern of Parisian
consecration is the object of Pascale Casanova's path-breaking La
République mondiale des lettres, the other outstanding example of an
imaginative synthesis with strong critical intent in recent years.3
Here the national bounds of Bourdieu's work have been decisively
broken, in a project that uses his concepts of symbolic capital and
the cultural field to construct a model of the global inequalities of
power between different national literatures, and the gamut of
strategies that writers in languages at the periphery of the system of
legitimation have used to try to win a place at the centre. Nothing
like this has been attempted before. The geographical range of
Casanova's materials, from Madagascar to Romania, Brazil to
Switzerland, Croatia to Algeria; the clarity and trenchancy of the map
of unequal relations she offers; and, not least, the generosity with
which the dilemmas and ruses of the disadvantaged are explored, make
her book kindred to the French elan behind the World Social Forum. It
might be called a literary Porto Alegre. That implies a beginning,
with much fierce argument and discussion to come. But whatever the
outcome of ensuing criticisms or objections, The World Republic of
Letters - empire more than republic, as Casanova shows - is likely to
have the same sort of liberating impact at large as Said's
Orientalism, with which it stands comparison.

The wider puzzle remains: what explains the strange contrast between a
unique literary cosmopolitanism and so much intellectual parochialism
in France? It is tempting to wonder whether the answer lies simply in
the relative selfconfidence of each sector: the continuing native
vitality of French history and theory inducing indifference to foreign
output, and the declining prestige of French letters prompting
compensation in the role of a universal dragoman. There may be
something in this, but it cannot be the whole story. For the function
of Paris as world capital of modern literature - the summit of an
international order of symbolic consecration - long precedes the fall
in the reputation of French authors themselves, dating back at least
to the time of Strindberg and Joyce, as Casanova demonstrates.

Moreover, there is a parallel art that contradicts such an explanation
completely. French hospitality to the furthest corners of the earth
has been incomparable in the cinema, too. On any day, about five times
as many foreign films, past or present, are screened in Paris as in
any other city on earth. Much of what is now termed 'world cinema' -
Iranian, Taiwanese, Senegalese - owes its visibility to French
consecration and funding. Had directors like Kiarostami, Hou Xiao Xien
or Sembene depended on reception in the Anglo-American world, few
outside their native lands would ever have glimpsed them. Yet this
openness to the alien camera has been there all along. The brio of the
New Wave was born from enthusiasms for Hollywood musicals and gangster
movies, Italian Neo-Realism and German Expressionism, that gave it
much of the vocabulary to reinvent French cinema. A national energy
and an international sensibility were inseparable from the start.

Such contrasts are a reminder that no society of any size ever moves
simply in step with itself, in a uniform direction. There are always
cross-currents and enclaves, deviances or doublings back from what
appears to be the main path. In culture as in politics, contradiction
and irrelation are the rule. They do not disable general judgments,
but they complicate them. It is not meaningless to speak of a French
decline since the mid-1970s. But the current sense of the term, that
of Nicolas Baverez and others, which has given rise to le déclinisme,
is to be avoided. It is too narrowly focused on economic and social
performance, understood as a test of competition. Postwar history has
shown how easily relative positions in these can shift. Verdicts based
on them are usually superficial.

Decline in the sense that matters has been something else. For some
twenty years after the end of the trente glorieuses, the mood of the
French elites was not unlike a democratic version of the outlook of
1940 and after: a widespread feeling that the country had been
infected with subversive doctrines it needed to purge, that healthier
strands in the nation's past needed to be reclaimed, and - above all -
that the forms of a necessary modernity were to be found in the Great
Power of the hour, and it was urgent either to adapt or adopt them for
domestic reconstruction. The American model, more benign than the
German, lasted longer. But eventually even some of those addicted to
it began to have doubts. At the end of this road, might there not wait
a sheer banalisation of France? From the mid-1990s onwards, a reaction
started to set in.

It is still far from clear how deep that goes, or what its outcome
will be. The drive to clamp a standard neo-liberal straitjacket onto
economy and society has slowed, but not slackened - Maastricht alone
ensuring that. What could not be achieved frontally may arrive more
gradually, by erosion of social protections rather than assault on
them; perhaps the more typical route in any case. A creeping
normalisation, of the kind the current low-profile government led by
Raffarin is pursuing, risks less than a galloping one of the sort
admirers look to from Nicolas Sarkozy, the latest d'Artagnan of the
right, and in French conditions may prove more effective. It will not
be the Socialist Party, in office for 16 out of the last 24 years,
that halts it. Its cultural monuments, the shoddy eyesores of
Mitterrand's grands travaux and vulgarity of Jack Lang's star-shows,
rightly detested by conservative opinion, were the epitome of
everything signified by the progress of banalisation.

Outside the country, attitudes of passionate francophilia that were
still quite common between the wars have virtually disappeared. Like
most of its neighbours, or perhaps more so, France arouses mixed
feelings today. Admiration and irritation are often expressed in equal
measure. But were the country to become just another denizen of the
cage of Atlantic conformities, a great hole would be left in the
world. The vanishing of all that it has represented culturally and
politically, in its pyrotechnic difference, would be a loss of a
magnitude still difficult to grasp. How close such a prospect is,
remains hard to fathom. Smith's dry rejoinder to Pitt comes to mind:
there is a lot of ruin in a nation. The hidden stratifications and
intricacies of the country, the periodic turbulence beneath the
pacified surface of a consumer society, sporadic impulses - gathering
or residual? - to careen fearlessly to the left of the left, past
impatience with democratic boredom, are so many reasons to think the
game is not quite over yet. After explaining, lucidly and at length,
why France was no longer subject to the revolutionary fault-lines of
the 19th or early 20th century, and had at last achieved a political
order that enjoyed stability and legitimacy, Aron nevertheless ended
his great editorial of 1978 with a warning. 'Ce peuple, apparemment
tranquille, est encore dangereux.' Let us hope so.

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.lrb.co.uk/v26/n18/ande01_.html" target="_blank">http://www.lrb.co.uk/v26/n18/ande01_.html</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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marko_amnell1

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Since: Sep 20, 2004
Posts: 157



(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:40 am
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Kater Moggin wrote:
 > marko_amnell RemoveThis @hotmail.com (Marko Amnell):
 >
  > > Thanks, Moggin. Interesting quote. The second part of
  > > Perry Anderson's interesting essay on post-war France
  > > is in the Sept 23 issue of the LRB.
 >
 > Back in part one, I liked the even-handedness he displayed
 > in carefully weighing rhetoric as fraud against rhetoric as
 > witchcraft. Someone who takes seriously the obligations of the
 > balanced mind!

Did he really say that? Let's see. He wrote:

"Rhetoric is designed to cast a spell, and a cult easily
arises among those who fall under it. But it can also
repel, drawing charges of legerdemain and imposture.
Balanced judgment here will never be easy.

So your judgement depends on interpreting "cast a spell"
as witchcraft. Not entirely unreasonable, but one could
also interpret casting a spell as sometimes just being
charming and persuasive through the eloquent use of language.
My desktop Collins English Dictionary defines "spell" as:

1. a verbal formula considered as having magical force.
2. any influence that can control the mind or character;
fascination.

Perry Anderson, founder of the New Left and best known to
me as author of _Lineages of the Absolutist State_, is
also an old sparring partner of my neo-positivist guru
Ernest Gellner. I recall his review of Gellner's
_Plough, Sword and Book_. Commenting on Gellner's attempt
to fuse empiricism and materialism, Anderson said wittily
that "the Ghost rattles in the machine". He is right,
I think, that Gellner never quite succeeded in being
clear about the role of Kant's and Hume's ideas in his
epistemology. The idealistic elements "rattle" inside his
materialism. But I'm not sure whether Anderson's own
historical materialism is a better theory of knowledge.
Does it really go beyond the sort of vulgar materialism
we find in e.g. Lenin? I don't know.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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marko_amnell1

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(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:06 am
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Kater Moggin wrote:
 > Kater Moggin <kimmerian RemoveThis @fastmail.fm>:
 >
 > [Perry Anderson in the LRB]
 >
   > > > I liked the even-handedness he displayed
   > > > in carefully weighing rhetoric as fraud against rhetoric as
   > > > witchcraft. Someone who takes seriously the obligations of the
   > > > balanced mind!
 >
 > marko_amnell RemoveThis @hotmail.com (Marko Amnell):
 >
  > > Did he really say that? Let's see. He wrote:
 >
  > > "Rhetoric is designed to cast a spell, and a cult easily
  > > arises among those who fall under it. But it can also
  > > repel, drawing charges of legerdemain and imposture.
  > > Balanced judgment here will never be easy.
 >
  > > So your judgement depends on interpreting "cast a spell"
  > > as witchcraft. Not entirely unreasonable, but one could
  > > also interpret casting a spell as sometimes just being
  > > charming and persuasive through the eloquent use of language.
 >
 > Look more closely. Anderson is criticizing what he labels
 > "too flamboyant eloquence" -- do they have to _flaunt_ it? --
 > and he connects spell-casting rhetoric to cultishness, not some
 > admirable form of persuasion.

PA says that "a cult easily arises among those who fall
under" the spell-casting, but does not claim that this
is always the case.

And PA is not criticizing "too flamboyant eloquence".
He is criticizing French literary philosophy because it leads
to "arguments freed from logic, propositions from evidence",
such as "the violence against syntax" advocated by Deleuze
and Guattari (as you pointed out in an earlier discussion
the two of us had about Negri and Hardt's _Empire_). He says
that "a literary conception of intellectual disciplines"
leads to these two problems.

He talks about "too flamboyant eloquence" in the case of
Braudel. PA says:

"Historians were least prone to such an import substitution
of literature, but even Braudel was not immune to the loosening
of controls in a too flamboyant eloquence."

So the problem is not the "too flamobyant eloquence" but the
loosening of controls -- erros in logic, ignoring evidence --
that such literary excess can lead to in academic writing.

Braudel the sober Annaliste historian has only caught a mild
case of the pomo bug. Lacan and Derrida have the full-blown
disease:

"Lacan's Ecrits, closer to Mallarm=E9 than Freud in their
syntax, or Derrida's Glas, with its double-columned
interlacing of Genet and Hegel, represent extreme forms
of this strategy."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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marko_amnell1

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(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:34 am
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Kater Moggin wrote:
 > marko_amnell DeleteThis @hotmail.com:
 >
   > > > [Perry Anderson in the LRB]
 >
  > > PA says that "a cult easily arises among those who fall
  > > under" the spell-casting, but does not claim that this
  > > is always the case.
 >
 > Doesn't have to. Linking spell-casting to cults is enough
 > to show he's speaking critically.

But he leaves open the possibility that sometimes casting
a spell through rhetoric does not lead to the formation of
a cult.

  > > And PA is not criticizing "too flamboyant eloquence".
 >
 > Yeah, he is. _Too_ flamboyant, he says -- not wonderfully
 > flamboyant, or just flamboyant enough.

But only because being "too flamboyant" leads to a loosening
of controls, i.e. errors in logic, and ignoring evidence.

  > > He is criticizing French literary philosophy because it leads
  > > to "arguments freed from logic, propositions from evidence",
  > > such as "the violence against syntax" advocated by Deleuze
  > > and Guattari (as you pointed out in an earlier discussion
  > > the two of us had about Negri and Hardt's Empire ). He says
  > > that "a literary conception of intellectual disciplines"
  > > leads to these two problems.
 >
 > Agreed. He's opposed to intellectual miscegenation, wants
 > to keep the lines drawn.

And why exactly is this a bad thing? PA has nothing against
literature, he simply wants discursive writing in the Academy
to be as clear as possible, presumably to allow rational argumentation
to take place.

  > > He talks about "too flamboyant eloquence" in the case of
  > > Braudel. PA says:
 >
  > > "Historians were least prone to such an import substitution
  > > of literature, but even Braudel was not immune to the loosening
  > > of controls in a too flamboyant eloquence."
 >
  > > So the problem is not the "too flamobyant eloquence" but the
  > > loosening of controls --
 >
 > Both, obviously: "not immune to the loosening of controls"
 > -- Anderson's rhetoric makes it a disease -- "in a too
 > flamboyant eloquence." Definitely can't accuse him of that sin.

Actually if you read his essay you'll notice he employs
wit fairly often to liven up his writing. For example, in
the last para he writes:

"Outside the country, attitudes of passionate francophilia
that were still quite common between the wars have virtually
disappeared. Like most of its neighbours, or perhaps more
so, France arouses mixed feelings today. Admiration and
irritation are often expressed in equal measure. But were
the country to become just another denizen of the cage of
Atlantic conformities, a great hole would be left in the
world. The vanishing of all that it has represented
culturally and politically, in its pyrotechnic difference,
would be a loss of a magnitude still difficult to grasp.
How close such a prospect is, remains hard to fathom.
Smith's dry rejoinder to Pitt comes to mind: there is a
lot of ruin in a nation."

I thought quoting Adam Smith in the context of the
debate over le d=E9clinisme and Nicolas Baverez's
_La France qui tombe_ was a nice touch.

  > > erros in logic, ignoring evidence --
  > > that such literary excess can lead to in academic writing.
 >
 > "Erros of logic" must be a typo. I'm certain you meant to
 > say "eros of logic."

Too flamboyantly eloquent.

  > > Braudel the sober Annaliste historian has only caught a mild
  > > case of the pomo bug. Lacan and Derrida have the full-blown
  > > disease:
 >
 > The disease, to Anderson's way of thinking, is "the
 > loosening of controls," which any control-freak would naturally
 > consider a sickness.

Why do you think someone is being a control freak if they
would like academic writing to be clear? Without some
standards, rational debate within the universities cannot=20
take place.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:18 pm
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Kater Moggin <kimmerian.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm>:

[Perry Anderson in the LRB]

> > I liked the even-handedness he displayed
> > in carefully weighing rhetoric as fraud against rhetoric as
> > witchcraft. Someone who takes seriously the obligations of the
> > balanced mind!

marko_amnell.DeleteThis@hotmail.com (Marko Amnell):

> Did he really say that? Let's see. He wrote:

> "Rhetoric is designed to cast a spell, and a cult easily
> arises among those who fall under it. But it can also
> repel, drawing charges of legerdemain and imposture.
> Balanced judgment here will never be easy.

> So your judgement depends on interpreting "cast a spell"
> as witchcraft. Not entirely unreasonable, but one could
> also interpret casting a spell as sometimes just being
> charming and persuasive through the eloquent use of language.

Look more closely. Anderson is criticizing what he labels
"too flamboyant eloquence" -- do they have to _flaunt_ it? --
and he connects spell-casting rhetoric to cultishness, not some
admirable form of persuasion.

-- Moggin
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kimmerian

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(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:50 pm
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marko_amnell RemoveThis @hotmail.com:

> > [Perry Anderson in the LRB]

> PA says that "a cult easily arises among those who fall
> under" the spell-casting, but does not claim that this
> is always the case.

Doesn't have to. Linking spell-casting to cults is enough
to show he's speaking critically.

> And PA is not criticizing "too flamboyant eloquence".

Yeah, he is. _Too_ flamboyant, he says -- not wonderfully
flamboyant, or just flamboyant enough.

> He is criticizing French literary philosophy because it leads
> to "arguments freed from logic, propositions from evidence",
> such as "the violence against syntax" advocated by Deleuze
> and Guattari (as you pointed out in an earlier discussion
> the two of us had about Negri and Hardt's Empire ). He says
> that "a literary conception of intellectual disciplines"
> leads to these two problems.

Agreed. He's opposed to intellectual miscegenation, wants
to keep the lines drawn.

> He talks about "too flamboyant eloquence" in the case of
> Braudel. PA says:

> "Historians were least prone to such an import substitution
> of literature, but even Braudel was not immune to the loosening
> of controls in a too flamboyant eloquence."

> So the problem is not the "too flamobyant eloquence" but the
> loosening of controls --

Both, obviously: "not immune to the loosening of controls"
-- Anderson's rhetoric makes it a disease -- "in a too
flamboyant eloquence." Definitely can't accuse him of that sin.

> erros in logic, ignoring evidence --
> that such literary excess can lead to in academic writing.

"Erros of logic" must be a typo. I'm certain you meant to
say "eros of logic."

> Braudel the sober Annaliste historian has only caught a mild
> case of the pomo bug. Lacan and Derrida have the full-blown
> disease:

The disease, to Anderson's way of thinking, is "the
loosening of controls," which any control-freak would naturally
consider a sickness.

-- Moggin
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:57 pm
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marko_amnell.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com (Marko Amnell):

 > Thanks, Moggin. Interesting quote. The second part of
 > Perry Anderson's interesting essay on post-war France
 > is in the Sept 23 issue of the LRB.

Back in part one, I liked the even-handedness he displayed
in carefully weighing rhetoric as fraud against rhetoric as
witchcraft. Someone who takes seriously the obligations of the
balanced mind!

-- Moggin<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:32 pm
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marko_amnell.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com (Marko Amnell):

> > > > [Perry Anderson in the LRB]

> But he leaves open the possibility that sometimes casting
> a spell through rhetoric does not lead to the formation of
> a cult.

I don't see him saying that in the article. He associates
rhetoric with sickness, spell-casting, cultishness, and
dishonesty, judiciously measuring its fraudulence ("legerdemain
and imposture") against its witcherings.

> But only because being "too flamboyant" leads to a loosening
> of controls, i.e. errors in logic, and ignoring evidence.

But only? He objects to overmuch flamboyance _because_ he
feels it leads to a loss of control.

Liberace opening the door for the Sex Pistols. As it were.

[re intellectual miscegenation]

> And why exactly is this a bad thing? PA has nothing against
> literature, he simply wants discursive writing in the Academy
> to be as clear as possible, presumably to allow rational
> argumentation to take place.

Not just an issue of clarity. Anderson wants strict lines
separating the disciplines. He complains that the pomos
hyphenated literature and philosophy: criminal punctuation, in
his view.

> Actually if you read his essay you'll notice he employs
> wit fairly often to liven up his writing.

Only in appropriate doses, of course. He wouldn't want to
be excessively witty.

> Why do you think someone is being a control freak if they
> would like academic writing to be clear? Without some
> standards, rational debate within the universities cannot
> take place.

I think that Anderson is a control-freak because loosening
the controls seems like a sickness to him -- that's the
rhetoric he adopts in attacking rhetoric. ObBook: _Illness as
Metaphor_, Susan Sontag.

ObAnotherBook: Plato, _The Republic_ 10. "We must remain
firm in our conviction that hymns to the gods and praises
of famous men are the only poetry which should be admitted into
our State." A standard for you.

-- Moggin
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:32 pm
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Kater Moggin <kimmerian.TakeThisOut@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<kimmerian-926883.19303128092004.TakeThisOut@news.verizon.net>...

> I think that Anderson is a control-freak because loosening
> the controls seems like a sickness to him -- that's the
> rhetoric he adopts in attacking rhetoric. ObBook: _Illness as
> Metaphor_, Susan Sontag.
>
> ObAnotherBook: Plato, _The Republic_ 10. "We must remain
> firm in our conviction that hymns to the gods and praises
> of famous men are the only poetry which should be admitted into
> our State." A standard for you.
>
> -- Moggin

Well, Perry Anderson does indulge in a bit more wit (if not
flamboyant eloquence) when he briefly touches on your own
conditions inside the American humanities departments,
which owe a lot to your idealization of Derrida, Foucault,
and the other French literary philosophers.

"Political correctness was a kind of academic aping of class
struggle. Crossed with the excesses of a careerist feminism,
it had left many university departments in conditions to which
only an Aristophanes or Molière could do justice.
Multiculturalism, as often as not combined with what should
be its opposite, American juridification of every issue, led
inevitably to a slack relativism."

This is the paradise you've found by escaping from Plato's
Republic?
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:09 am
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:50 am
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The Other <other.RemoveThis@no.email.pls>:

> marko_amnell.RemoveThis@hotmail.com writes:

> > PA has nothing against literature, he simply wants discursive
> > writing in the Academy to be as clear as possible, presumably to
> > allow rational argumentation to take place.

> Derrida's been attacked on those grounds from within the pomo camp as
> well. Foucault called him an "obscurantist terrorist". (Could that
> possibly sound less clumsy in French?) He said Derrida's trick was to
> be needlessly obscure, so that when you tried to criticize something
> he said, he could reply, "No, that's not what I was saying at all."

Yes, it's much less clumsy in French. I'd say that it has
a very nice ring: "obscurantisme terroriste." If you're
interested, Foucault was talking to Searle, who later passed on
his remark in the _New York Review_.

-- Moggin
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:53 am
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marko_amnell.RemoveThis@hotmail.com (Marko Amnell):

> Well, Perry Anderson does indulge in a bit more wit (if not
> flamboyant eloquence) when he briefly touches on your own
> conditions inside the American humanities departments,
> which owe a lot to your idealization of Derrida, Foucault,
> and the other French literary philosophers.

> "Political correctness was a kind of academic aping of class
> struggle. Crossed with the excesses of a careerist feminism,
> it had left many university departments in conditions to which
> only an Aristophanes or Molière could do justice.
> Multiculturalism, as often as not combined with what should
> be its opposite, American juridification of every issue, led
> inevitably to a slack relativism."

I wouldn't call that witty -- but I wouldn't call it wrong.

> This is the paradise you've found by escaping from Plato's
> Republic?

Huh? When have I ever suggested academia is a paradise in
the U.S.? Or anywhere else.

-- Moggin
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