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Since: May 24, 2004 Posts: 42
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(Msg. 31) Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Ringworld Parameters [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: alt>books>larry-niven (more info?)
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Since: Oct 04, 2005 Posts: 15
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(Msg. 32) Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Ringworld Parameters [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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JRS: In article <1155902027.159320.244520 DeleteThis @m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>
, dated Fri, 18 Aug 2006 04:53:47 remote, seen in news:alt.books.larry-
niven, kuyper DeleteThis @wizard.net posted :
>
>A Dyson sphere has a surface gravity which is equal to the surface
>gravity of the enclosed star, divided by the square of the ratio of the
>radius of the sphere and and the radius of the star:
>
>Gdyson = Gstar*(Rstar/Rdyson)^2
>
>Therefore, if you make the sphere small enough, it could have a surface
>gravity equal to that of Earth; it could therefore sustain an
>atmosphere like earth's.
Not the right criterion.
To retain a long-term atmosphere, escape speed must exceed some modest
multiple of the mean molecular speed at the top of the atmosphere.
Earth has retained air, but AIUI has not retained hydrogen or helium.
But escape energy is proportional to surface gravity and to radius; in
fact, escape speed is what you would get by falling one radius in the
surface gravity field.
For any Dyson sphere around the Sun, the radius must be much greater
than that of Earth, so correspondingly less surface gravity is needed
for retention..
Consider a sphere around the Sun, radius R. Gravity goes as 1/R^2, so
escape energy goes as 1/R. Area goes as R^2, energy radiated is
constant and goes as R^2T^4 so T goes as 1/rootR; molecular energy is
proportional to T. As one increases R, escape energy falls faster than
molecular energy.
Remember, a little Solar Wind does no harm; but install a Dyson Sphere
at the photosphere, and it is *necessary* for the continued existence of
Sol that said sphere be able to retain an atmosphere at 6000K rather
well.
--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQqish topics, acronyms & links;
Astro stuff via astron-1.htm, gravity0.htm ; quotings.htm, pascal.htm, etc.
No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News. >> Stay informed about: Ringworld Parameters |
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Since: May 14, 2005 Posts: 63
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(Msg. 33) Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Ringworld Parameters [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <PeydnRVjJ8ieS3jZnZ2dnUVZ_vWdnZ2d.DeleteThis@adelphia.com>, Jim Lillie
wrote:
> logan_mcgrath89.DeleteThis@hotmail.com wrote:
> > I think kuyper.DeleteThis@wizard.net has also effectively killed the Dyson sphere
> > with his argument on the "curvy ring" because there is no way to
> > generate ANY gravity inside of the sphere without all the air draining
> > into the equator. *high-five* You rock!
> >
>
> I thought the Dyson sphere depended on 'artificial gravity fields'
> rather than spin.
>
You could make a Dyson sphere (or Logan's "Niven Pipe") work
moderately well by having air-tight cylindrical walls along various
parallels of latitude. Hmmm, can I draw it?
Pole
___
_#-. # represents latitudinal bands of
__#. usable atmosphere supported by
_#\ engineered walls on inner surface
#: thus "__"
#| <-- Equator
The diagram is made less clear because I can't combine "#" and "_" in one
character.
I suppose that logically you could treat it as being the inverse of
stopping the water (and atmosphere) from flowing towards the equator of a
rotating perfectly spherical planet.
The walls wouldn't need to be particularly high either - 50 miles
would give you a workable atmosphere with weather and things and a
workable amount of living room "uphill" from the wall.
Actually, if you think back to the descriptions of Jinx, with high
pressure zone at one end of the atmosphere and a short train ride away,
high vacuum zones ... that could be an interesting structure to live in.
Got to remember too, that a Dyson sphere is going to be fairly
roomy - a 100Gm radius Dyson sphere (about Venus orbit) would have a
surface area of around (4).pi.(100Gm)^2 ~= 12.5*10^22 m^2, or about 250
million Earths.
--
Aidan Karley, FGS
Aberdeen, Scotland
Written at Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:08 +0100, but posted later. >> Stay informed about: Ringworld Parameters |
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Since: Aug 20, 2006 Posts: 5
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(Msg. 34) Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Ringworld Parameters [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Dr John Stockton <jrs DeleteThis @merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote in
news:jdwkb+CO8E5EFwmy@merlyn.demon.co.uk:
> JRS: In article <PM-dnbLLKtM18X_ZnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d DeleteThis @speakeasy.net>,
dated
> Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:53:58 remote, seen in news:alt.books.larry-niven,
> Erik Max Francis <max DeleteThis @alcyone.com> posted :
>>
>>If you're asking for the parameters specifically with respect to the
>>Ringworld, they are here:
>>
>> http://www.alcyone.com/max/reference/scifi/ringworld.html
>
> White-on-black is horrible.
>
> I've been wondering about the Spill Mountains.
>
> With what we know about the age of the Ring and the size of the
> mountains (assumed to be made entirely of flup?), just how much flup
> must be dropped on average per day on each mountain, from what height?
I believe there is speculation in ENGINEERS that any or all Spill
Mountains are largely hollow depots for equipment and/or raw materials
stockpiled by the builders.
--
Jeff Wilson - jwilson DeleteThis @io.spam-me-not.com >> Stay informed about: Ringworld Parameters |
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Since: Aug 20, 2006 Posts: 5
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(Msg. 35) Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Ringworld Parameters [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Erik Max Francis <max.RemoveThis@alcyone.com> wrote in
news:-7WdnaUCx7XK8H7ZnZ2dnUVZ_qudnZ2d@speakeasy.net:
> Aidan Karley wrote:
>
>> Hang on. "Ringworld atmospheric composition N2 74%, O2 23%, Ar
>> 2%, He 1%, trace elements < 1%"
>> I don't recall all that helium being mentioned anywhere.
>> (Maybe
>> my memory.) But I do recall the presence of a lot of atmospheric
>> helium being taken as evidence for a long use of fusion reactions in
>> some part of Niven's work. Mote?
>
> They're from the Ringworld Roleplaying Game, canonicalized by Niven
> himself.
>
The Ringworld intersects about 0.25% of the normal, omnidirectional solar
wind, and an unspecified but larger portion of the mass ejections
attendant to uses of the meteor defense and the "Deathlight". It would
keep al most all of it, given the greater "escape veolcity". The hydrogen
would quickly form compounds, but the helium would remain in the majority
He2 form it had when arriving.
--
Jeff Wilson - jwilson.RemoveThis@io.spam-me-not.com >> Stay informed about: Ringworld Parameters |
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Since: May 14, 2005 Posts: 63
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(Msg. 36) Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:41 am
Post subject: Re: Ringworld Parameters [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <Xns98259D50EFB12jwilsoniocom.RemoveThis@216.196.97.142>, Jeff Wilson wrote:
> The hydrogen
> would quickly form compounds, but the helium would remain in the majority
> He2 form it had when arriving.
>
<Cough>
Is that He-He molecules, or He nuclei with two protons and no
neutrons?
4 more impossible things to go and I can have my breakfast.
--
Aidan Karley, FGS
Aberdeen, Scotland
Written at Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:04 +0100, but posted later. >> Stay informed about: Ringworld Parameters |
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Since: Aug 20, 2006 Posts: 5
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(Msg. 37) Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:59 am
Post subject: Re: Ringworld Parameters [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Aidan Karley <doIlookDAFTenoughTOpost DeleteThis @validEMAILaddressTOa.NEWS.group>
wrote in news:VA.00001094.0064d784@validemailaddresstoa.news.group:
> In article <Xns98259D50EFB12jwilsoniocom DeleteThis @216.196.97.142>, Jeff Wilson
> wrote:
>> The hydrogen
>> would quickly form compounds, but the helium would remain in the
>> majority He2 form it had when arriving.
>>
> <Cough>
> Is that He-He molecules, or He nuclei with two protons and no
> neutrons?
>
> 4 more impossible things to go and I can have my breakfast.
>
He-subscript2, diatomic Helium
--
Jeff Wilson - jwilson DeleteThis @io.spam-me-not.com >> Stay informed about: Ringworld Parameters |
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Since: Aug 22, 2004 Posts: 78
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(Msg. 38) Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:40 am
Post subject: Re: Ringworld Parameters [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <Xns982FA151DE54jwilsoniocom.DeleteThis@216.196.97.142>,
jwilson.DeleteThis@io.spam-me-not.com (Jeff Wilson) wrote:
> *From:* Jeff Wilson <jwilson.DeleteThis@io.spam-me-not.com>
> *Date:* Wed, 30 Aug 2006 00:59:28 -0500
>
> Aidan Karley <doIlookDAFTenoughTOpost.DeleteThis@validEMAILaddressTOa.NEWS.group>
> wrote in news:VA.00001094.0064d784@validemailaddresstoa.news.group:
>
> > In article <Xns98259D50EFB12jwilsoniocom.DeleteThis@216.196.97.142>, Jeff
> > Wilson
> > wrote:
> >> The hydrogen
> >> would quickly form compounds, but the helium would remain in the
> >> majority He2 form it had when arriving.
> >>
> > <Cough>
> > Is that He-He molecules, or He nuclei with two protons and
> > no neutrons?
> >
> > 4 more impossible things to go and I can have my breakfast.
> >
>
> He-subscript2, diatomic Helium
>
Except that Helium doesn't form diatomic molecules, or any other kind of
molecule either. Its a noble gas! Any kind of molecule that you manage to
*force* it to join would be transient as monatomic Helium is very stable
and anything else unstable.
> --
> Jeff Wilson - jwilson.DeleteThis@io.spam-me-not.com
>
Stephen >> Stay informed about: Ringworld Parameters |
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Since: May 14, 2005 Posts: 63
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(Msg. 39) Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:19 am
Post subject: Re: Ringworld Parameters [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <Xns982FA151DE54jwilsoniocom.RemoveThis@216.196.97.142>, Jeff Wilson
wrote:
> >> majority He2 form it had when arriving.
> >>
> > <Cough>
> > Is that He-He molecules, or He nuclei with two protons and no
> > neutrons?
> >
> > 4 more impossible things to go and I can have my breakfast.
> >
>
> He-subscript2, diatomic Helium
>
Ohh, we need some if that for improving the separation of iC5 and
nC5 in the chromatographs when neo-C6 is around. Who're your suppliers,
and how much?
--
Aidan Karley, FGS
Aberdeen, Scotland
Written at Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:59 +0100, but posted later. >> Stay informed about: Ringworld Parameters |
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Since: May 14, 2005 Posts: 63
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(Msg. 40) Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:19 am
Post subject: Re: Ringworld Parameters [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <memo.20060830113440.47507A.DeleteThis@sforbesa.compulink.co.uk>, Stephen
Forbes wrote:
> Except that Helium doesn't form diatomic molecules, or any other kind of
> molecule either. Its a noble gas!
>
Your statement is correct, but the reasons given are inadequate. The
important point is that the energy released from forming such a molecule is
comparable to the energy released by fragmenting such a molecule. So,
kinetically, Helium-involving molecules do exist, but have a fleeting
existence at best.
Fluorine Oxide? spectroscopically detected
Fluorine sulphide? Don't know that one - you can carry your own
specimen.
Chlorine Oxide? 3 or 4 sub-oxides known.
Chlorine halides are well-known. But unstable. Bromine oxides are
probably shipped in coolpacks. Iodine oxides can be distilled in steam.
Astatine probably forms sulphides.
--
Aidan Karley, FGS
Aberdeen, Scotland
Written at Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:01 +0100, but posted later. >> Stay informed about: Ringworld Parameters |
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Since: Aug 20, 2006 Posts: 5
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(Msg. 41) Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:24 am
Post subject: Re: Ringworld Parameters [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Aidan Karley <doIlookDAFTenoughTOpost.DeleteThis@validEMAILaddressTOa.NEWS.group>
wrote in news:VA.000010bc.06c1867d@validemailaddresstoa.news.group:
> In article <Xns982FA151DE54jwilsoniocom.DeleteThis@216.196.97.142>, Jeff Wilson
> wrote:
>> >> majority He2 form it had when arriving.
>> >>
>> > <Cough>
>> > Is that He-He molecules, or He nuclei with two protons and no
>> > neutrons?
>> >
>> > 4 more impossible things to go and I can have my breakfast.
>> >
>>
>> He-subscript2, diatomic Helium
>>
> Ohh, we need some if that for improving the separation of iC5 and
> nC5 in the chromatographs when neo-C6 is around. Who're your suppliers,
> and how much?
>
Supplier? I'm looking for someone to get rid of it.
--
Jeff Wilson - jwilson.DeleteThis@io.spam-me-not.com >> Stay informed about: Ringworld Parameters |
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Since: Aug 20, 2006 Posts: 5
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(Msg. 42) Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:38 am
Post subject: Re: Ringworld Parameters [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Aidan Karley <doIlookDAFTenoughTOpost.DeleteThis@validEMAILaddressTOa.NEWS.group>
wrote in news:VA.000010bd.06c1880d@validemailaddresstoa.news.group:
> In article <memo.20060830113440.47507A.DeleteThis@sforbesa.compulink.co.uk>,
> Stephen Forbes wrote:
>> Except that Helium doesn't form diatomic molecules, or any other kind
>> of molecule either. Its a noble gas!
>>
> Your statement is correct, but the reasons given are
> inadequate. The
> important point is that the energy released from forming such a
> molecule is comparable to the energy released by fragmenting such a
> molecule. So, kinetically, Helium-involving molecules do exist, but
> have a fleeting existence at best.
> Fluorine Oxide? spectroscopically detected
> Fluorine sulphide? Don't know that one - you can carry your own
> specimen.
> Chlorine Oxide? 3 or 4 sub-oxides known.
> Chlorine halides are well-known. But unstable. Bromine oxides
> are
> probably shipped in coolpacks. Iodine oxides can be distilled in
> steam. Astatine probably forms sulphides.
>
All kidding aside, the Ringworld will have lots of helium in its
atmosphere relative to a terrestrial planet, in isotopic proportions the
same as those found on its star's surface, just by sweeping it up over
the millenia of the star's use as a meteor and intruder defense and
attitude adjustment mechanism.
--
Jeff Wilson - jwilson.DeleteThis@io.spam-me-not.com >> Stay informed about: Ringworld Parameters |
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