Saruman of Many Colours - why?

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 03:30:44 GMT, "Zimri"
<zimriel.TakeThisOut@SBCspammlesforglobal.net> wrote:

 >Or is JRRT slipping a subtle anti-multiculti message in there? White = good,
 >mixed colour = bad. Oh say it ain't so.

It ain't so.

Barb
_____

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 >> Stay informed about: Saruman of Many Colours - why? 

I may remeber wrong but from when I read TTT (The Two Towers) I can
remeber it saying that sauroman's white appearance dulled and beneath
his white beard lay streaks of black. I always thought this symbolized
him turning from Sauroman the white to Sauroman the black. Sure he
turned many colors but maybe he needed to to fully transform into a
singilized color.

Also while leaving Ornthac Merry questioned gandalf on his new power
of being a white wizard and gandalf replied that he was great, but
black is mighter still. Which to me suggests that there was a level
higher then the white robe which was a black one which sauroman was
transforming into, for his white beard was turning black.

Just my two cents.
 >> Stay informed about: Saruman of Many Colours - why? 

On 16 Jun 2004 14:34:33 -0700, snerkable.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com (T.J. Johnson)
wrote:

 > Also while leaving Ornthac Merry questioned gandalf on his new power
 >of being a white wizard and gandalf replied that he was great, but
 >black is mighter still. Which to me suggests that there was a level
 >higher then the white robe which was a black one which sauroman was
 >transforming into, for his white beard was turning black.
 >
 > Just my two cents.
I don't remember readinf this - could you clue me in where I can find
this (what book/chapter)?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Saruman of Many Colours - why? 

NobodyMan <none.DeleteThis@none.net> wrote:
: On 16 Jun 2004 14:34:33 -0700, snerkable.DeleteThis@yahoo.com (T.J. Johnson)
: wrote:

:> Also while leaving Ornthac Merry questioned gandalf on his new power
:>of being a white wizard and gandalf replied that he was great, but
:>black is mighter still. Which to me suggests that there was a level
:>higher then the white robe which was a black one which sauroman was
:>transforming into, for his white beard was turning black.
:>
:> Just my two cents.
: I don't remember readinf this - could you clue me in where I can find
: this (what book/chapter)?

Gandalf says this in "The White Rider", but he is referring to Sauron.
Gandalf is not saying that Saruman would have been mightier if he had been
a black wizard. Gandalf is saying that Sauron is still more powerful than
he. In any case, Saruman's hair used to be black, and has turned white
over the years, not vice versa.

Stephen
 >> Stay informed about: Saruman of Many Colours - why? 

Zimri wrote:
 > What's the significance of Saruman's amazing technicolour dreamcoat?

<snip>

It was like white light broken into its components by a prism, and "he
who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom".

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Saruman of Many Colours - why? 

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:51:51 GMT, "Bill O'Meally"
<OMeallyMD RemoveThis @wise.rr.com> wrote:

 >Zimri wrote:
  >> What's the significance of Saruman's amazing technicolour dreamcoat?
 >It was like white light broken into its components by a prism, and "he
 >who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom".

Yes, and presaged Sir Isaac Newton by many thousand years! Too bad
Gandalf never published the finding, or Sir Newton wouldn't have
gotten all the glory for it.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Saruman of Many Colours - why? 

"Bill O'Meally" <OMeallyMD.DeleteThis@wise.rr.com> wrote in message
news:bgpAc.28423$Fd.10804@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
 > Zimri wrote:
  > > What's the significance of Saruman's amazing technicolour dreamcoat?
 >
 > <snip>
 >
 > It was like white light broken into its components by a prism, and "he
 > who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom".


I'm going to break off from my normal trolling style and treat this one a
little more seriously.

Was it Tolkien's interpretation that Saruman had broken something?

If so, I question whether Saruman was causing any harm, even symbolically.
Saruman broke a light beam from the Sun, that was falling on his castle
anyway and not on someone's crop or a forest. He didn't destroy anything
good about Middle-Earth by doing so; as one would have by, say, turning a
quarter of Fangorn into firewood.

And Saruman created a rainbow from that light beam, thus creating something
aesthetically pleasing, or an advance in science, or both.

He who imagines that nothing may ever be broken was never ON a path of
wisdom.

--
zimriel sbc dot
at global net
..
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://pages.sbcglobal.net/zimriel/blog/zimblog.html" target="_blank">http://pages.sbcglobal.net/zimriel/blog/zimblog.html</a>
because everyone else is doing it<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Saruman of Many Colours - why? 

Zimri wrote:

 > "Bill O'Meally" <OMeallyMD.DeleteThis@wise.rr.com> wrote in message
 > news:bgpAc.28423$Fd.10804@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
  > > Zimri wrote:
   > > > What's the significance of Saruman's amazing technicolour dreamcoat?
  > >
  > > <snip>
  > >
  > > It was like white light broken into its components by a prism, and "he
  > > who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom".
 >
 > I'm going to break off from my normal trolling style and treat this one a
 > little more seriously.
 >
 > Was it Tolkien's interpretation that Saruman had broken something?
 >
 > If so, I question whether Saruman was causing any harm, even symbolically.
 > Saruman broke a light beam from the Sun, that was falling on his castle
 > anyway and not on someone's crop or a forest. He didn't destroy anything
 > good about Middle-Earth by doing so; as one would have by, say, turning a
 > quarter of Fangorn into firewood.
 >
 > And Saruman created a rainbow from that light beam, thus creating something
 > aesthetically pleasing, or an advance in science, or both.
 >
 > He who imagines that nothing may ever be broken was never ON a path of
 > wisdom.
 >
 >

Well, in the scheme of colors and such, if White is the opposite and opposed to
Black, what happens when White is broken up into every color? It is no longer
white, and so can no longer be said to be opposite of black, in fact, black
would be one of the colors represented.

I don't know if I'm saying this at all well, but it seems to me that by
"breaking" white, Saruman has simply made himself the inverse of Sauron: i. e.
Black is the collection and absorbtion of all colors. Saruman's act of
"breaking" white light through a prism to produce all the colors of the
spectrum is likewise not an aesthetic enterprise. Put all colors in one place
and sooner or later, you'll end up with Black. Saruman just hadn't completely
finished the journey yet.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Saruman of Many Colours - why? 

Larry Swain wrote:

 > I don't know if I'm saying this at all well, but it seems to me that
 > by "breaking" white, Saruman has simply made himself the inverse of
 > Sauron: i. e. Black is the collection and absorbtion of all colors.
 > Saruman's act of "breaking" white light through a prism to produce
 > all the colors of the spectrum is likewise not an aesthetic
 > enterprise. Put all colors in one place and sooner or later, you'll
 > end up with Black. Saruman just hadn't completely finished the
 > journey yet.

Well said!

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Saruman of Many Colours - why? 

"Bill O'Meally" <OMeallyMD.DeleteThis@wise.rr.com> wrote in message news:<i3XAc.29187$Fd.11393@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
 > Larry Swain wrote:
 >
  > > I don't know if I'm saying this at all well, but it seems to me that
  > > by "breaking" white, Saruman has simply made himself the inverse of
  > > Sauron: i. e. Black is the collection and absorbtion of all colors.
  > > Saruman's act of "breaking" white light through a prism to produce
  > > all the colors of the spectrum is likewise not an aesthetic
  > > enterprise. Put all colors in one place and sooner or later, you'll
  > > end up with Black. Saruman just hadn't completely finished the
  > > journey yet.
 >
 > Well said!

Regardless Saruman was essentially doing Sauron's work-Sauron's sin
was seeking dominance (originally benign order corrupted by his fall),
a dominance that would invariably turn into the nihlism of his master
(though apparently not at the end of the Third Age).<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Saruman of Many Colours - why? 

mark edelstein wrote:

> "Bill O'Meally" <OMeallyMD.DeleteThis@wise.rr.com> wrote in message news:<i3XAc.29187$Fd.11393@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
> > Larry Swain wrote:
> >
> > > I don't know if I'm saying this at all well, but it seems to me that
> > > by "breaking" white, Saruman has simply made himself the inverse of
> > > Sauron: i. e. Black is the collection and absorbtion of all colors.
> > > Saruman's act of "breaking" white light through a prism to produce
> > > all the colors of the spectrum is likewise not an aesthetic
> > > enterprise. Put all colors in one place and sooner or later, you'll
> > > end up with Black. Saruman just hadn't completely finished the
> > > journey yet.
> >
> > Well said!
>
> Regardless Saruman was essentially doing Sauron's work-Sauron's sin
> was seeking dominance (originally benign order corrupted by his fall),
> a dominance that would invariably turn into the nihlism of his master
> (though apparently not at the end of the Third Age).

I don't disagree here. I reacted to Zimri's post, which I think your remarks here better address.
 >> Stay informed about: Saruman of Many Colours - why? 

Larry Swain <theswain DeleteThis @operamail.com> wrote:
 > Zimri wrote:
  >> And Saruman created a rainbow from that light beam, thus creating
  >> something aesthetically pleasing, or an advance in science, or both.
  >>
  >> He who imagines that nothing may ever be broken was never ON a path
  >> of wisdom.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Finding out how something works is a noble
pursuit. Anatomists had to carve open many dead bodies for modern
medicine to develop.

 > Well, in the scheme of colors and such, if White is the opposite and
 > opposed to Black, what happens when White is broken up into every
 > color? It is no longer white, and so can no longer be said to be
 > opposite of black, in fact, black would be one of the colors
 > represented.

Um. Black would be the absence of light. Black is not a colour in the
strict physical sense, and even black objects are not truly black.
Similarly for white, which is, as you said, the addition of all the
colours.

The real confusion comes from the fact that colour is a concept imposed
on the world by our brains, and more specifically our trichromatic (red,
blue, green) vision that derives from the three types of cone cells on
our retinas.

Incidentially, I learnt a few months ago that red and green cone cells
in the retina were an evolutionary divergence from the original 'yellow'
sensory perception (cone cells sensitive to that region of the 'visible'
spectrum we label yellow). And to bring up an even more bizarre concept,
some rare women have a genetic mutation that may be the beginnings of
tetrachromacy (four-colour vision). The 'red' cone cells may be
diverging into 'red' and 'near-infrared' vision. Apparantly the only
evolutionary advantage of this so far is (rather bizarrely) to have a
better fashion sense and pick clothes where the colours match!

And some insects have 5-colour vision. Bees being a famous example of
seeing in the UV part of the spectrum.

Quite what all this had to do with Saruman, I've forgotten!

 > I don't know if I'm saying this at all well, but it seems to me that
 > by "breaking" white, Saruman has simply made himself the inverse of
 > Sauron: i. e. Black is the collection and absorbtion of all colors.
 > Saruman's act of "breaking" white light through a prism to produce
 > all the colors of the spectrum is likewise not an aesthetic
 > enterprise. Put all colors in one place and sooner or later, you'll
 > end up with Black.

No. You will end up with White.

I think Sauron and Morgoth should be treated as Black Bodies. And before
anyone starts another Tolkien and racism thread, go and look up the term
Black Body Radiation in a physics dictionary.

 > Saruman just hadn't completely finished the
 > journey yet.

I do agree that the breaking of the white light by Saruman is a nice
contrast to the absence or absorption of light symbolised by Sauron.
Both are being destructive to light.

Christopher

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Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Saruman of Many Colours - why? 

"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard.RemoveThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
 >Larry Swain <theswain.RemoveThis@operamail.com> wrote:
  >> Zimri wrote:
   >>> And Saruman created a rainbow from that light beam, thus creating
   >>> something aesthetically pleasing, or an advance in science, or both.
   >>>
   >>> He who imagines that nothing may ever be broken was never ON a path
   >>> of wisdom.
 >
 >Agreed wholeheartedly. Finding out how something works is a noble
 >pursuit. Anatomists had to carve open many dead bodies for modern
 >medicine to develop.

But that is quite different from the original quote:
' "White! " he sneered. "It serves as a beginning. White cloth may
be dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can
be broken."
' "In which case it is no longer white," said I. "And he that breaks
a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."'

Gandalf's objection was not to the use of a prism -- nothing is
being "broken" there. The objection was to dyeing the white cloth,
overwriting the white page, breaking the pure light. I can't believe
anyone seriously thinks Gandalf would have a problem with rainbows!

A dead body is already dead -- cutting it up isn't breaking it.
Putting a living body into ice water to see how long it takes to
die: THAT would be breaking it.

--
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 >> Stay informed about: Saruman of Many Colours - why?