Sauron Vs. Eonwe?

"Chocoholic" <Chocoholic.TakeThisOut@Cocoa.org> wrote in message news:<101p315rncti368.TakeThisOut@corp.supernews.com>...
 > "T.J. Johnson" <snerkable.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
 > news:53716750.0401311819.62dc13da@posting.google.com...
  > > Ok even though this never happened in the story...
  > > If sauron had his ring. Who would win a duel Him or Eonwe?
  > >
  > > I would put my money on sauron 'cuz I remeber reading somewhere
  > > that he was the mightest of the Maia- and Eonwe is a Maia. Also
  > > because it says the might of sauron was enhanced by melkor, and
  > > somewhat enhanced by putting on his own ring. It's like sauron on
  > > steriods vs. some regular Maiar Eonwe.
 >
 > Eonwe is the mightiest of the Maiar.
 >
 > From the "Valaquenta' in the Silmarillion:
 >
 > Chief among the Maiar of Valinor whose names are remembered in the histories
 > of the Elder Days are Ilmarë, the handmaid of Varda, and Eönwë, the
 > banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms is surpassed by none
 > in Arda. But of all the Maiar Ossë and Uinen are best known to the Children
 > of Ilúvatar.




So? Sauron still kicks his ass *no sauron stop beating me* ahhh
ahhh *SLAM AHHH!!!! !! !

*another 1 bites the dust<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

It seems "Chocoholic" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
 >Eonwe is the mightiest of the Maiar.
 >
 >From the "Valaquenta' in the Silmarillion:
 >
 >Chief among the Maiar of Valinor whose names are remembered in the histories
 >of the Elder Days are Ilmarë, the handmaid of Varda, and Eönwë, the
 >banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms is surpassed by none
 >in Arda. But of all the Maiar Ossë and Uinen are best known to the Children
 >of Ilúvatar.

Great quote, and it would settle the question except for two nagging
little problems.

(1) "Chief" does not necessarily mean "strongest": it can mean
"leader. Compare the Valar, where Melkor is the chief though Tulkas
could pin him seven falls out of seven.

(2) Sauron is not one of the "Maiar of Valinor", so there's no
comparison implied in the quote you gave.

--
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 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

"Chocoholic" <Chocoholic DeleteThis @Cocoa.org> wrote in message
news:101p315rncti368@corp.supernews.com...
 > Chief among the Maiar of Valinor whose names are remembered in the
histories
 > of the Elder Days are Ilmarë, the handmaid of Varda, and Eönwë, the
 > banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms is surpassed by
none
 > in Arda.

Sauron isn't a "Maia of Valinor", and I don't think he ever was ... he was
Morgoth's guy even before the Valar moved their operation out west.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

"Chocoholic" <Chocoholic RemoveThis @Cocoa.org> wrote in message
news:101p315rncti368@corp.supernews.com...

 > "T.J. Johnson" <snerkable RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote;

  >> I would put my money on sauron 'cuz I remeber reading somewhere
  >> that he was the mightest of the Maia- and Eonwe is a Maia.

 > Eonwe is the mightiest of the Maiar.

 > From the "Valaquenta' in the Silmarillion:
 > Eönwë, the banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms
 > is surpassed by none in Arda.

Unfortunately, neither of these things ('Sauron mightiest' / 'Eonwe
mightiest') was written by JRR Tolkien. The first is a common assumption
which is not stated in the texts and the second was an editorial
alteration made by Christopher Tolkien in an effort to explain why it was
Eonwe who led the Host of the Valar at the end of the First Age.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

 > Unfortunately, neither of these things ('Sauron mightiest' / 'Eonwe
 > mightiest') was written by JRR Tolkien. The first is a common assumption
 > which is not stated in the texts and the second was an editorial
 > alteration made by Christopher Tolkien in an effort to explain why it was
 > Eonwe who led the Host of the Valar at the end of the First Age.

my patron vala can beat up your patron vala
nyah nyah nyah nyah<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

On 31 Jan 2004 18:19:39 -0800,
T.J. Johnson <snerkable RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
 > Ok even though this never happened in the story...
 > If sauron had his ring. Who would win a duel Him or Eonwe?
 >
 > I would put my money on sauron 'cuz I remeber reading somewhere
 > that he was the mightest of the Maia- and Eonwe is a Maia. Also
 > because it says the might of sauron was enhanced by melkor, and
 > somewhat enhanced by putting on his own ring. It's like sauron on
 > steriods vs. some regular Maiar Eonwe.

Nowhere does it say that Sauron was the mightiest of the Maiar. I can think
of nowhere where it says Sauron was enhanced by Morgoth (other than likely
learning quite a bit). Pretty clearly Sauron didn't feel he could beat
Eonwe, but rather begged him for mercy.

--
Aaron Clausen

tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 15:57:56 GMT,
Jon Meltzer <jonmeltzeratmindspringdotcom.DeleteThis@youknow.whattodo> wrote:
 > "Chocoholic" <Chocoholic.DeleteThis@Cocoa.org> wrote in message
 > news:101p315rncti368@corp.supernews.com...
  >> Chief among the Maiar of Valinor whose names are remembered in the
 > histories
  >> of the Elder Days are Ilmarë, the handmaid of Varda, and Eönwë, the
  >> banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms is surpassed by
 > none
  >> in Arda.
 >
 > Sauron isn't a "Maia of Valinor", and I don't think he ever was ... he was
 > Morgoth's guy even before the Valar moved their operation out west.

He was of the folk of Aule, so it seems that at one point he was.

--
Aaron Clausen

tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

"T.J. Johnson" wrote:

 > Ok even though this never happened in the story...
 > If sauron had his ring. Who would win a duel Him or Eonwe?

Eonwe is named as unsurpassed in the skill of using weapons, so likely
he'd win a duel. However if you compare the inherent creative resources
available to these two Maiar there's no information available to make a
comparison, other than that they are both very significant Maiar.

-JJ<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

"AC" <mightymartianca DeleteThis @yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:slrnc1qfj7.1lo.mightymartianca@namibia.tandem...
 > On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 15:57:56 GMT,
 > Jon Meltzer <jonmeltzeratmindspringdotcom DeleteThis @youknow.whattodo> wrote:
  > > "Chocoholic" <Chocoholic DeleteThis @Cocoa.org> wrote in message
  > > news:101p315rncti368@corp.supernews.com...
   > >> Chief among the Maiar of Valinor whose names are remembered in the
  > > histories
   > >> of the Elder Days are Ilmarë, the handmaid of Varda, and Eönwë, the
   > >> banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms is surpassed by
  > > none
   > >> in Arda.
  > >
  > > Sauron isn't a "Maia of Valinor", and I don't think he ever was ... he
was
  > > Morgoth's guy even before the Valar moved their operation out west.
 >
 > He was of the folk of Aule, so it seems that at one point he was.

But not in Valinor ... as I remember it (and I don't have HoME or the Sil
handy) the Valar didn't move west until after the original, pre-Elf, battles
with Morgoth in Middle-earth, and Sauron had changed allegiance from Aule to
Morgoth by then. Can someone check the text?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

It seems "AC" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
 >On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 15:57:56 GMT,
 >Jon Meltzer <jonmeltzeratmindspringdotcom.RemoveThis@youknow.whattodo> wrote:
  >> "Chocoholic" <Chocoholic.RemoveThis@Cocoa.org> wrote in message
  >> news:101p315rncti368@corp.supernews.com...
   >>> Chief among the Maiar of Valinor whose names are remembered in the
  >> histories
   >>> of the Elder Days are Ilmarë, the handmaid of Varda, and Eönwë, the
   >>> banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms is surpassed by
  >> none
   >>> in Arda.
  >>
  >> Sauron isn't a "Maia of Valinor", and I don't think he ever was ... he was
  >> Morgoth's guy even before the Valar moved their operation out west.
 >
 >He was of the folk of Aule, so it seems that at one point he was.

He was of the people of Aulë in the Timeless Halls, but I think he
adhered to Melkor before the Music was finished.

And read the whole sentence: "... among the Maiar of Valinor whose
names are remembered in the histories ... " The "histories" all
associate Sauron with Middle-earth because that's where he did every
deed that is recorded (except for his sojourn in Númenor).

--
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<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://OakRoadSystems.com" target="_blank">http://OakRoadSystems.com</a>
Tolkien FAQs: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://Tolkien.slimy.com" target="_blank">http://Tolkien.slimy.com</a> (Steuard Jensen's site)
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 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

"Jon Meltzer" <jonmeltzeratmindspringdotcom.TakeThisOut@youknow.whattodo> wrote
 > "AC" <mightymartianca.TakeThisOut@yahoo.ca> wrote
  > > Jon Meltzer wrote:

   > > > Sauron isn't a "Maia of Valinor", and I don't think he ever was
....
   > > > he was Morgoth's guy even before the Valar moved their operation
   > > > out west.
  > >
  > > He was of the folk of Aule, so it seems that at one point he was.
 >
 > But not in Valinor ... as I remember it (and I don't have HoME or the
Sil
 > handy) the Valar didn't move west until after the original, pre-Elf,
battles
 > with Morgoth in Middle-earth, and Sauron had changed allegiance from
 > Aule to Morgoth by then. Can someone check the text?

I don't know the HoME passages, but in The Silmarillion we have:

Valaquenta on Sauron: "In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aule ...
In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda ... Sauron had a
part..."

So it seems that Sauron switched to Melkor's side before or upon
entering Arda, or at least when Melkor entered Arda. Since Melkor
entered Arda from the beginning, it seems Sauron was with him from the
beginning too. [Pax HoME].

Sauron was also most definitely not of Valinor. He is described in
Chapter 3 of The Silmarillion as 'lieutenant of Melkor' who commanded
Angband in the days when Melkor had established his stronghold of Utumno
in the North after Valinor was established following the fall of the
Lamps.

Incidentially, the final "pre-elf" battle with Melkor was still to come,
even when the Valar had moved West to Aman.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

"Jon Meltzer" <jonmeltzeratmindspringdotcom DeleteThis @youknow.whattodo> wrote in
message news:8m9Tb.5442$jH6.4007@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
 > "Chocoholic" <Chocoholic DeleteThis @Cocoa.org> wrote in message
 > news:101p315rncti368@corp.supernews.com...
  > > Chief among the Maiar of Valinor whose names are remembered in the
 > histories
  > > of the Elder Days are Ilmarë, the handmaid of Varda, and Eönwë, the
  > > banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms is surpassed by
 > none
  > > in Arda.
 >
 > Sauron isn't a "Maia of Valinor", and I don't think he ever was ... he was
 > Morgoth's guy even before the Valar moved their operation out west.

*** whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda. ***

It never ceases to amaze me how people can read something and not perceive
it.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

"Chocoholic" <Chocoholic.RemoveThis@Cocoa.org> wrote in message
news:101rb7knlhd2s8e@corp.supernews.com...
 > It never ceases to amaze me how people can read something and not perceive
 > it.

<plonk><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe?