Sauron Vs. Eonwe?

The Sidhekin wrote:

[about Sauron being of the people of Aule]

> Did Aulë even have a "people" in the Timeless Halls? I thought the
> Maiar only flocked to the Valar after having entered Eä. I cannot
> find a good quote either way right now, so if anyone could point me to
> one, it would be appreciated.

Not sure about the Maiar, though there are several relevant quotes from
the Ainulindale, from which most of the following is derived. I think
all the Ainur that were ever going to enter Ea, did so at the beginning,
and the spirits that flocked to aid the Valar (the Maiar) came from
other regions of Ea and entered into Arda.

After Ea is created and the Valar (eventually) create Arda, we hear of
Manwe calling spirits (presumably Maiar) unto him to fight against
Melkor. I couldn't find any clear reference to when Melkor summons his
Maiar.

Even in the Timeless Halls, the Ainur were not a homogenous people. At
the beginning they: "comprehended only that part of the mind of
Illuvatar from which [they] came, and in the understanding of their
brethren they grew but slowly."

Melkor also spent time alone (seeking the Flame Imperishable) and came
to think independent thoughts. When he wove these into the Music,
discord arose and some of the Ainur attuned their thoughts to those of
Melkor.

Now whether you interpret this to mean that these Ainur cleaved to
Melkor before entering Ea, or whether you view this as representing the
history of Ea (as embodied by the Music) and the moment within Ea when
those Ainur cleaved to Melkor, is a matter of taste. I go for the
former, saying that Melkor had already gathered a following in the
Timeless Halls.

He had definitely already lost one opportunity! We are told in the
Valaquenta that Varda came to the aid of Manwe "out of the deeps of Ea
.... For Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected
him, and he hated her, and feared her more than all others whom Eru
made."

Given this passage, I would say it is definitely possible for the Valar
(and by extension, any of the Ainur) to form alliances in the Timeless
Halls. I guess Eru got sick of their squabbling and sent most of them to
the playground of Ea for the rest of Eternity This apparently
included the greatest and most fair, but they would say that, wouldn't
they...

Christopher

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 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.RemoveThis@fastmail.fm> writes:

> It seems "The Sidhekin" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
> >Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.RemoveThis@fastmail.fm> writes:
> >
> >> It seems "AC" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
> >> >On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 15:57:56 GMT,
> >> >> Sauron isn't a "Maia of Valinor", and I don't think he ever
> >> >> was ... he was Morgoth's guy even before the Valar moved their
> >> >> operation out west.
> >> >
> >> >He was of the folk of Aule, so it seems that at one point he was.
> >>
> >> He was of the people of Aulë in the Timeless Halls, but I think he
> >> adhered to Melkor before the Music was finished.
> >
> > Did Aulë even have a "people" in the Timeless Halls? I thought the
> >Maiar only flocked to the Valar after having entered Eä.
>
> Melkor, at least, had a "people" in the Timeless Halls. It's in the
> Ainulindalë: that bit about those near to Melkor following his music
> rather than the theme of Ilúvatar.

Well ... I do not see that "near to Melkor" means they were of his
"people". Even with random arrangement of the Singers, some would be
nearer than others. And the division between those following Melkor's
music and those following Ilúvatar's theme does not imply a further
division on either side.

So depending on what you intend "people" to signify, I am either not
sure there is any relation between these "peoples" and the later
Maiar's allegiances, or I am not sure that there is any "people" other
than Eru's and Melkor's; specifically I am still not convinced that
Aulë had a "people" in the Timeless Halls, to any extent coinciding
with his later Household in Eä.

Or maybe I just misinterpreted your use of the word "people".


> It seems a reasonable inference -- though I don't think Tolkien made
> a clear statement about it -- that the greater Ainur would emerge as
> "section leaders" in the music, with most of the lesser Ainur
> clustering around the "section leaders" they preferred.(*) Thus Aulë
> could well have had "people" before the descent into Arda.

"Section leaders" in the music sounds good. It just does not follow
that the Maiar would be of the people of their "section leader". For
example, I could easily imagine the Ainu-who-became-Sauron being of
Melkor's section and yet later of Aulë's household.

In fact, it seems to me that the "peoples" of the Ainur in Eä are
somewhat independent of their relations in the Timeless Halls. The
"siblings" among them seem all to belong to different "peoples" in Eä,
and the espousals, at least those of Manwë and Varda, of Aulë and
Yavanna, and of Tulkas and Nessa, happen in Eä, not in the Timeless
Halls. Nor have these espousals any impact on the division into
"peoples" among the Maiar -- Saruman was one of Aulë's and Radagast
one of Yavanna's.


> (*) I used to sing in the Cleveland Orchestra Chorus, and the weaker
> singers used to try to stand near a stronger singer, for help in
> staying with the correct notes. I guess that means if I'd been an
> Ainu I'd have been a Maia and not a Vala.

Ah -- you were preparing for the Second Music.


> [quotes snipped]
> > The latter quote places Sauron in Aulë's household while the Lamps
> >were still shining, but from a footnote to §12 of LQ 2 (that is still
> >HoME 10), it would appear that Sauron was commanding Angband since its
> >foundation
>
> And a similar statement is near the beginning of Chapter 3 of the
> published /Silmarillion/.

Okay. One of these days I will just have to reread that one.

> > Whatever may be the case of the "people of Aulë in the Timeless
> >Halls", it remains that Sauron was of the household of Aulë through
> >the long labour of the Valar in Ea,
>
> I don't think so. Seems to me Tolkien has not made a clear statement
> either way on this point, so we're each entitled to our opinion. And
> I acknowledge that my comment of Sauron being of Aulë's people in
> the Timeless Halls was also my opinion.

I thought I had quoted two "clear statements". The first placed
Sauron in Valinor, and the second in Aulë's household on Almaren. How
are they unclear?

The only thing that remains unclear to me is the exact moment when
the Maia-who-became-Sauron defected from Aulë's household -- and
whether that was before or after the foundation of Valinor. But maybe
I am missing something?


-SK-
--
perl -e 'print "Just another Perl ${\(trickster and hacker)},";'

The Sidhekin *proves* Sidhe did it!
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

Conrad B Dunkerson wrote:
 > "Chocoholic" <Chocoholic.RemoveThis@Cocoa.org> wrote in message
 > news:101p315rncti368@corp.supernews.com...
 >=20
  >> "T.J. Johnson" <snerkable.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote;
 >=20
   >>> I would put my money on sauron 'cuz I remeber reading somewhere
   >>> that he was the mightest of the Maia- and Eonwe is a Maia.
 >=20
  >> Eonwe is the mightiest of the Maiar.
 >=20
  >> From the "Valaquenta' in the Silmarillion:
  >> E=F6nw=EB, the banner-bearer and herald of Manw=EB, whose might in =
arms
  >> is surpassed by none in Arda.
 >=20
 > Unfortunately, neither of these things ('Sauron mightiest' / 'Eonwe
 > mightiest') was written by JRR Tolkien. The first is a common
 > assumption which is not stated in the texts and the second was an
 > editorial alteration made by Christopher Tolkien in an effort to
 > explain why it was Eonwe who led the Host of the Valar at the end of
 > the First Age.=20

Which explains the inconsistency. Noone is going to make me believe that =
E=F6nw=EB's "might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda" as long as =
Tulkas is around.


--=20
Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk
Conway's Law: In any organization there will always be one person who
knows what is going on. This person must be fired.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

Jon Meltzer wrote:
 >
 > "Chocoholic" <Chocoholic DeleteThis @Cocoa.org> wrote in message
 > news:101p315rncti368@corp.supernews.com...
  > > Chief among the Maiar of Valinor whose names are remembered in the
 > histories
  > > of the Elder Days are Ilmarë, the handmaid of Varda, and Eönwë, the
  > > banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms is surpassed by
 > none
  > > in Arda.
 >
 > Sauron isn't a "Maia of Valinor", and I don't think he ever was ... he was
 > Morgoth's guy even before the Valar moved their operation out west.

No but Arda includes Valinor, or did at the time and the quotation...

"...Eönwë, the banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms is
surpassed by none in Arda..."

....seems pretty clear-cut to me.

M.

PS. Apology if you got sent an e-mail by accident. Itchy send finger.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

Jon Meltzer wrote:
 >
 > "Chocoholic" <Chocoholic.RemoveThis@Cocoa.org> wrote in message
 > news:101rb7knlhd2s8e@corp.supernews.com...
  > > It never ceases to amaze me how people can read something and not perceive
  > > it.
 >
 > <plonk>

Plonk?

For that?

<shakes head>

Boy, do you need to develop a thicker skin before posting on Usenet...

M.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

Kristian Damm Jensen wrote:
 >
 > Conrad B Dunkerson wrote:
  > > "Chocoholic" <Chocoholic RemoveThis @Cocoa.org> wrote in message
  > > news:101p315rncti368@corp.supernews.com...
  > >
   > >> "T.J. Johnson" <snerkable RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote;
  > >
   > >>> I would put my money on sauron 'cuz I remeber reading somewhere
   > >>> that he was the mightest of the Maia- and Eonwe is a Maia.
  > >
   > >> Eonwe is the mightiest of the Maiar.
  > >
   > >> From the "Valaquenta' in the Silmarillion:
   > >> Eönwë, the banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms
   > >> is surpassed by none in Arda.
  > >
  > > Unfortunately, neither of these things ('Sauron mightiest' / 'Eonwe
  > > mightiest') was written by JRR Tolkien. The first is a common
  > > assumption which is not stated in the texts and the second was an
  > > editorial alteration made by Christopher Tolkien in an effort to
  > > explain why it was Eonwe who led the Host of the Valar at the end of
  > > the First Age.
 >
 > Which explains the inconsistency. Noone is going to make me believe that Eönwë's "might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda" as long as Tulkas is around.

There is a big difference between facing a member of the WWW federation
in a wrestling ring, one on one, and facing a Samurai on a field of
battle.

Tulkas precise endowments ar enot made clear, but they centre on strength
and "lustihood" [weird one]. He is one of the few Vala who resordied as
apparently get laid [he "espoused Nessa, sistr of Orome].

Speakign of Orome, he was the Huntsman of the Valar and IMO I would
consider him higher in battle prowess with weapons than Tulkas, but
again not so high as Eonwe.

Conrad's point sticks however, because we hear of none of Eonwe's battle
exploits elsewhere in the Sil. He trades on reputation alone.

Were he made into Manwe's and Varda's son, there to battle Melkor at the
End and lay waste the world before it is remade - in revenge for
Meklor's ravishing of Arien IIRC? - [in accordance with not a few Norse
myths IIRC] as I recall Tolkien proposed, then he would indeed have been
justified in his reputation.

However that revision never occurred.

M.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

Conrad B Dunkerson wrote:
 >
 > "Chocoholic" <Chocoholic.TakeThisOut@Cocoa.org> wrote in message
 > news:101rb7knlhd2s8e@corp.supernews.com...
 >
  > > *** whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda. ***
 >
  > > It never ceases to amaze me how people can read something and not
  > > perceive it.
 >
 > Allow me to repeat myself...
 >
 > John Ronald Reuel Tolkien DID NOT WRITE THAT LINE. It is an editorial
 > alteration made after his death.

Did he not have grounds to consider this an appropriate endowment given
Tolkien's own proposed resolution of the History of Arda, albeit a
revision he never finalised?

M.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> wrote:
> It seems "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>> I think all the Ainur that were ever going to enter Ea, did so at the
>> beginning,
>
> There was at least one exception: Tulkas.

Is that really so clear? I have always thought that a reasonable way
(and my preferred way) of interpreting the book quotes was to say that
Tulkas entered Ea with everyone else, and then entered Arda later to aid
in the first battle with Melkor. Ditto for Ungoliant who "descended from
the darkness that lies about Arda".

I've copied (below) part of another post I made called "Fate After Arda
for the Ainur", which expands on these points about precisely where the
various Ainur arrive from and end up.

[BEGIN QUOTE]

Incidentially, I've always found the description of Tulkas coming to
Arda slightly intriguing. It is said (in the Beginning of Days) that the
Ainu who was after known as Tulkas heard:

"...in the far heaven that there was battle in the Little Kingdom..."

I've always thought that the Little Kingdom (which is plainly Arda) is a
faintly derogatory term used by those Ainur outside the Kingdom of Arda.
The "far heaven" could be either other regions of Ea, or the Outer Void
where Eru still dwells. I would say other parts of Ea.

Later, we hear that Melkor flees Tulkas and broods in "the outer
darkness." Is this outer darkness part of Ea, or is it outside Ea. I
would think it is still within Ea. Then (much) later we hear of Morgoth
being thrust into the Timeless Void. Again, I would think of this as
part of Ea.

[END QUOTE]

Christopher

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 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

The Sidhekin wrote:

> In fact, it seems to me that the "peoples" of the Ainur in Eä are
> somewhat independent of their relations in the Timeless Halls. The
> "siblings" among them seem all to belong to different "peoples" in Eä,
> and the espousals, at least those of Manwë and Varda, of Aulë and
> Yavanna, and of Tulkas and Nessa, happen in Eä, not in the Timeless
> Halls. Nor have these espousals any impact on the division into
> "peoples" among the Maiar -- Saruman was one of Aulë's and Radagast
> one of Yavanna's.

Confusion is further generated when you realise that what they were
singing in the Timeless Halls was a future history of Ea. The Music is
over all, and is as fate to all other than Men. So when Manwe and
Yavanna sing together in the Timeless Halls, they are actually (as they
later realise) foreshadowing the creation of the Eagles of the Lords of
the West. Ditto for Ulmo and Manwe with rain and clouds, and ditto for
Ulmo and Melkor for frost, ice and snow.

Having said that, the Ainur must have carried with them, into Ea, a
memory of the alliances they formed in the Timeless Halls (such as
Varda's rejection of Melkor). This would have some influence, the
history provided by the Music would also have influence. Then there are
the events that happen independent of the Music. All this would result
in the history as told in the Silmarillion. Telling all these influences
apart is difficult unless clear quotes can be found.

Christopher

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 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

Michael O'Neill <onq DeleteThis @indigo.ie> wrote:

 > Tulkas precise endowments are not made clear, but they centre on
 > strength and "lustihood" [weird one]. He is one of the few Vala who is
 > recorded as apparently getting laid [he "espoused" Nessa, sister of
Orome].

It really belongs in the 'Humorous lines in the Silmarillion' thread,
but the scene after that always makes me smile:

"Tulkas espoused Nessa the sister of Orome.... Then Tulkas slept, being
weary and content, and Melkor deemed that his hour had come."

And Melkor started building Utumno and eventually overthrew the Lamps.
Silly Tulkas. I bet Nessa was secretly a servant of Melkor.

Christopher

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 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

"Michael O'Neill" <onq.RemoveThis@indigo.ie> wrote in message
news:40228357.3A13C6F7@indigo.ie...

 > Did he not have grounds to consider this an appropriate endowment
 > given Tolkien's own proposed resolution of the History of Arda, albeit a
 > revision he never finalised?

No, nothing JRRT wrote or sketched out would require Eonwe to have 'might
in arms unsurpassed in Arda'. Christopher indicated that he made the
change to help explain why Eonwe led the Host of the West at the end of
the First Age. However, JRRT presumably felt that Eonwe's status as
'herald of Manwe' (and in earlier texts 'son of Manwe') was explanation
enough.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

"Michael O'Neill" <onq DeleteThis @indigo.ie> wrote in message
news:40228318.1065F863@indigo.ie...

 > Conrad's point sticks however, because we hear of none of Eonwe's
 > battle exploits elsewhere in the Sil. He trades on reputation alone.

 > Were he made into Manwe's and Varda's son, there to battle Melkor at
 > the End and lay waste the world before it is remade - in revenge for
 > Meklor's ravishing of Arien IIRC? - [in accordance with not a few Norse
 > myths IIRC] as I recall Tolkien proposed, then he would indeed have
 > been justified in his reputation.

 > However that revision never occurred.

Hmmm... no, you've got the textual history messed up. Eonwe as son of
Manwe was an early idea that was written up and eventually discarded
(along with the 'children of the Valar' in general) in favor of him being
classified 'herald of Manwe'. His participation in the final battle
against Melkor at the end of Arda was also a long-standing element which
appears in several versions of the text.

Thus, these were long standing (and in the one case abandoned) concepts
rather than 'proposed revisions that were never implemented'.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

In article <MPG.1a8d27ba7074d7fc98bdac.DeleteThis@news.odyssey.net>,
the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm says...
> It seems "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
> > I have always thought that a reasonable way
> >(and my preferred way) of interpreting the book quotes was to say that
> >Tulkas entered Ea with everyone else, and then entered Arda later to aid
> >in the first battle with Melkor.
>
> That gives the difficulty of figuring out what he would have been
> doing, outside the solar system. Can you really picture Tulkas just
> hovering about, all alone? I can't.
>
> >"...in the far heaven that there was battle in the Little Kingdom..."
> >
> >The "far heaven" could be either other regions of Ea, or the Outer Void
> >where Eru still dwells. I would say other parts of Ea.
>
> You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't feel I can agree. The
> action in Eä was in Arda, whether you define it as Earth or as Solar
> System. The Ainur who entered into Eä chose Arda as their field of
> action, because that's where the Children were going to appear. Why
> else would an Ainu have left the Timeless Halls, where they were in
> the constant presence of Ilúvatar?

Tulkas may have been doing work out in the "vast halls" and "spaces" and
the "wheeling fires" of the Universe.

According to The Annals of Aman:
"1500
$13 It came to pass that hearing afar of the war in Arda Tulkas the
Strong came thither out of distant regions of Ea to the aid of Manwe.
Then Arda was filled with the sound of his laughter, but he turned a face
of anger towards Melkor; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his mirth,
and forsook Arda, and there was a long peace."

Although Myths Transformed notes:
"But this Manwe would not suffer, and there was war therefore in Arda.
But as is elsewhere written Melkor was at that time defeated with the aid
of Tulkas (who was not among those who began the building of Ea) and
driven out again into the Void that lay about Arda."

<snip>
--
Tar-Elenion

Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice.
Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.
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