Sauron Vs. Eonwe?

It seems "Kristian Damm Jensen" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
 >So when Tulkas was the one who ultimately defeated Melkor in the Battle of the Valar, it was merely because Eonwe and Orome was to lazy to the job?

I think Melkor was much stronger then -- a match for all the Valar
put together. He had weakened himself quite a lot by the end of the
first age.

Also, something new: I wonder how much the Elves added to the
strength of the Valar. I had always thought they were basically
window dressing in the War of Wrath, there for morale reasons and
maybe to mop up bands of Orcs but not militarily significant when
the Ainur were fighting. Opinions?

By the way, something may be wrong with your line length for
original lines (not quotes). Your newsreader _seems_ to have posted
your "So when Tulkas" as one long line. (I'm 95% sure, not 100%
because the article is not yet available at Google.)

Don't you just love Outlook?

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 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 21:45:16 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"
<spamgard DeleteThis @blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>He had definitely already lost one opportunity! We are told in the
>Valaquenta that Varda came to the aid of Manwe "out of the deeps of Ea
>... For Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected
>him, and he hated her, and feared her more than all others whom Eru
>made."

Hmm ... visions of Varda rolling up her sleeves and wading into Utumno
(or was it Angband?) in the War of Wrath, and dragging Melkor out by
the ear ...
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

>> It seems "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:

[Tulkas entered Arda from other regions of Ea]

> then the_stan_brown.RemoveThis@fastmail.fm said...

[Tulkas entered Arda and Ea from the Timeless Halls]

Then Tar-Elenion tar_elenion.RemoveThis@hotmail.com went to HoME:

[Tulkas entered Arda from other regions of Ea]
[Tulkas entered Arda and Ea from the Timeless Halls]

And I concluded:

Go not to HoME for answers, for it will say both yea and nay.
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

CleV <clJUNKv1 DeleteThis @balcab.ch> wrote:
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard DeleteThis @blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> He had definitely already lost one opportunity! We are told in the
>> Valaquenta that Varda came to the aid of Manwe "out of the deeps of
>> Ea ... For Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and
>> rejected him, and he hated her, and feared her more than all others
>> whom Eru made."
>
> Hmm ... visions of Varda rolling up her sleeves and wading into Utumno
> (or was it Angband?) in the War of Wrath, and dragging Melkor out by
> the ear ...

LOL!

It was Utumno. But it was not the War of Wrath. It was the Battle of the
Powers, when the Valar decided to contest the lordship of Melkor over
Middle-earth. The decision was before the Elves awoke, but the war was
after the Elves awoke. The Battle of the Powers appears to have been the
third war between the Valar and Melkor.

The first was called the First War, and was when Melkor fled from Tulkas
in the beginnings of Arda. The second was when Melkor overthrew the
Lamps. You could then say the fourth was when Melkor stole the Silmarils
and killed the Trees. The War of Wrath would then be the fifth and final
Ainur/Melkor battle.

Christopher

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 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.TakeThisOut@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> Also, something new: I wonder how much the Elves added to the
> strength of the Valar. I had always thought they were basically
> window dressing in the War of Wrath, there for morale reasons and
> maybe to mop up bands of Orcs but not militarily significant when
> the Ainur were fighting. Opinions?

I've always thought the same, though with strong misgivings about the
Elves (and those of the Edain who also fought in the War of Wrath) just
being 'window dressing'! The idea of Elves and Ainur fighting together
does seem fairly incompatible, unless the Ainur 'restricted' themselves
to Quendi forms??

Why would the Valar need Elves to boost their Ainuic morale? Maybe you
mean the morale of the Elves. How would going to a battle boost the
morale of the Vanyar and the Noldor of Aman? Remember that the Noldor
and Sindar of Beleriand did not take part in the War of Wrath. On the
other hand, we do know that Maedhros and Maglor appeared afterwards, and
that Elrond saw the armies arrayed in their splendour. Maybe that did
boost their morale.

*Ainuic* morale? What is the adjective for the Ainur? Ditto Maiar and
Valar.

I have some crazy idea of the Ainur present at the War of Wrath being
there to keep a balance and prevent Morgoth's bad guys from winning. It
might be worth comparing this War of Wrath with the three previous
battles with Melkor, none of which involved Eruhini.

The First War, has Melkor fleeing from Tulkas (Ch1, QS). But before that
happens, Melkor is compared to a mountain (in the Ainulindale). The
second war is when Melkor casts down the Lamps. Then we have the third
battle, the Battle of the Powers, soon after the Elves awake.

[It is interesting to note that in this war the siege of Utumno is
considered "long and grievous" (Ch3, QS), which is a possible indication
that Ainur 'died' in some way...]

By the time of the Darkening of Valinor, Melkor merely stabs two trees,
and by the time of the War of Wrath, the Valar don't seem to be
mentioned in person at all.

The impression, consistent with the overall arc of the Silmarillion, is
for both the evil and good Powers to decline over time and become less
magical and god-like, approaching the mundane world of today. From
mountain-like Melkor to cowering chained Morgoth, from actually present
Valar to remote Valar. Just as Melkor spent himself in creating Arda
Marred, so Yavanna and the other Valar created their greatest works in
the Spring of Arda and are less directly powerful thereafter.

Extending all this to the War of Wrath, it is quite plausible that the
Valar and Maiar are present, and that Elves are also present. Just as
the Elves can strive with a reduced Melkor, so the good Ainur are also
less powerful and there is less of a difference in power between them
and Elves for us to worry about. But still a nice battle to watch.

Christopher

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 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.TakeThisOut@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> It seems "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:

>> Remember that the Noldor
>> and Sindar of Beleriand did not take part in the War of Wrath.
>
> But wouldn't they have seen a huge fleet of ships coming up out of
> the West?
>
> BTW, I wonder why the Elves of Beleriand didn't fight, since the few
> remaining Men of the Three Houses of Elf-friends did.

I think we both misunderstand the relevant passage in The Silmarillion,
the bit from QS, Ch24: "Of the march of the host of the Valar to the
north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went
none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and
who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings
of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in
Aman."

[BTW, what march? Did the ships land a long way south or north of
Beleriand? Maybe they mean the march north from the Mouths of Sirion and
the Isle of Balar, which was (IIRC) the only surviving group of Noldor.]

It is possible to read that passage as only referring to the _march_ of
the host of the Valar, and not the actual War of Wrath. Indeed, we later
hear details of the War of Wrath, which presumably _is_ told as a story
by one of the Elves of Middle-earth (maybe even Elrond himself) who made
the histories that came down to Bilbo and the Red Book.

It all depends whether at this point Tolkien was still writing from the
Aelfwine (BoLT) viewpoint, or whether he had rewritten this
long-standing (IIRC) part of his mythology to agree with Bilbo
transmitting the story to us through the Red Book? Can anyone with the
relevant knowledge of HoME answer this question?

The 'tidings... learned long afterwards' sentence could be speculation
on the part of the Elves who remained in Middle-earth. It does, however,
require that the Elves of Valinor did not talk to the Elves of Beleriand
about the march (or the War of Wrath, if you think the Elves of
Beleriand did not take part in that War). The impression arises that the
Elves of Valinor did not talk/meet with any of the Elves of Beleriand
before, during or after the War of Wrath, only meeting those who
eventually took ship with them back to Aman.

Sounds a bit strange, but maybe this segregation is reasonable? Even
Elrond's description (in the Council of Elrond) of the Host of the Valar
seems to be rather remote as if he was a spectator. Maybe he was still
young then as well.

I think the whole style of the account of the War of Wrath slides over
details such as we are trying to answer, making the whole effort rather
futile and essentially subjective.

>> I have some crazy idea of the Ainur present at the War of Wrath being
>> there to keep a balance and prevent Morgoth's bad guys from winning.
>
> Which Ainur _were_ present, anyway? The only one I know of is Eönwë.

I don't think we can really answer that question. I would have thought
that the host of the Valar would have consisted of Elves and Maiar.
Fighting like-with-like. The Maiar (and Earendil and Eagles) were
required to fight Melkor's Maiar (such as Balrogs and Dragons), and also
to help the Elves fight the uncounted legions of orcs. The Elves would
want to fight, but would only really be useful against the orcs, men and
fell beasts. They may have been unnecessary to an army of Maiar, but I
think the key point here is they _wanted_ to respond to Earendil's plea
on behalf of Elves and Men. They would have been ashamed to stay in
Aman. So the Elves of Valinor may have been window dressing, but they
were fighting for pride and dignity, and probably fighting alongside the
Elves of Beleriand (as I explain above) and healing old divisions
between them and the Noldor from whom they have long been sundered.

I'm really agreeing with and trying to expand your 'morale' idea to
explain the role of the Elves of Valinor in the War of Wrath.

>> By the time of the Darkening of Valinor, Melkor merely stabs two
>> trees, and by the time of the War of Wrath, the Valar don't seem to
>> be mentioned in person at all.
>>
>> The impression, consistent with the overall arc of the Silmarillion,
>> is for both the evil and good Powers to decline over time and become
>> less magical and god-like, approaching the mundane world of today.
>
> My impression is the exact opposite: Manwë and the other Valar
> become _more_ godlike and remote, _less_ mundane, preferring to work
> through more and more remote intermediaries rather than directly.

That was what I was trying to say, but you put it much better! I meant
the increasing lack of active intervention, their remoteness and lack of
actively using their powers. It is parallel to, but not identical to,
Morgoth's dilution of his power over time. The reasons and mechanisms
are different, the result is the same in that good and evil are less
directly personified and concentrated in one place.

Christopher

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 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

Stan Brown wrote:
>
> It seems "Conrad B Dunkerson" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
> >nothing JRRT wrote or sketched out would require Eonwe to have 'might
> >in arms unsurpassed in Arda'.

> > Christopher indicated that he made the
> >change to help explain why Eonwe led the Host of the West at the end of
> >the First Age. However, JRRT presumably felt that Eonwe's status as
> >'herald of Manwe' (and in earlier texts 'son of Manwe') was explanation
> >enough.


> It was enough for me. If none of the Valar were going to go to
> Middle-earth, then the logical commander would be a Maia. And who
> better than Manwë's herald?

Not for me. I'd say the concept of killing Melkor for love of the maiden
of the Sun and destroying the world might give a different perspective on
his fighting abilities, or have I got this mixed up?

> The larger question is _why_ none of the Valar went to Middle-earth.
> Seems too petty to say they were still in a snit over the Noldor
> having left Valinor centuries earlier.

IIRC Tolkien reflected on the puissance of the Valar as diminishing over
time. Just as the great demi-urgic upheavals of the primal world were
seen as the result of the Valar disputing the mastery with Melkor, so as
the ages passed, their *potential* became "exercised" and thus lessened.

By the end of the First Age, Melkor had been lessened by his exertions to
the point where he had been wounded by an angry Elf in a one-on-one and
scarred by an Eagle.

Becoming bound to the stuff of Arda meant his body could be slain and
destroyed and he lived in fear of this. At the conclusion of the Great
Battle, he didn't even come forth to save the day by taking the field as
Sauron later did against Elendil and Gil Galad.

While there is no suggestion that the Valar had been similarly weakened,
there is a definite pulling back in successive ages. They let Eru deal
with his errant Children in the Atalante. They sent incarnate and
enfeebled Maia representatives to oppose Sauron.

Letting the "kids" deal with Melkor could be interpreted as both a coming
of age for the Elves of Valinor and a huge insult to Melkor.

M.
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

Michael O'Neill <onq RemoveThis @indigo.ie> wrote:

[of the War of Wrath]

> Letting the "kids" deal with Melkor could be interpreted as both a
> coming of age for the Elves of Valinor and a huge insult to Melkor.

Good stuff. Now why can't you write stuff like that all the time?

GWB

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 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
 >
 > Michael O'Neill <onq DeleteThis @indigo.ie> wrote:
 >
  > > Tulkas precise endowments are not made clear, but they centre on
  > > strength and "lustihood" [weird one]. He is one of the few Vala who is
  > > recorded as apparently getting laid [he "espoused" Nessa, sister of
 > Orome].
 >
 > It really belongs in the 'Humorous lines in the Silmarillion' thread,
 > but the scene after that always makes me smile:
 >
 > "Tulkas espoused Nessa the sister of Orome.... Then Tulkas slept, being
 > weary and content, and Melkor deemed that his hour had come."

Because Tulkas had just come.

You're prolly right about Nessa.

M.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

Conrad B Dunkerson wrote:
 >
 > "Michael O'Neill" <onq RemoveThis @indigo.ie> wrote in message
 > news:40228318.1065F863@indigo.ie...
 >
  > > Conrad's point sticks however, because we hear of none of Eonwe's
  > > battle exploits elsewhere in the Sil. He trades on reputation alone.
 >
  > > Were he made into Manwe's and Varda's son, there to battle Melkor at
  > > the End and lay waste the world before it is remade - in revenge for
  > > Meklor's ravishing of Arien IIRC? - [in accordance with not a few Norse
  > > myths IIRC] as I recall Tolkien proposed, then he would indeed have
  > > been justified in his reputation.
 >
  > > However that revision never occurred.
 >
 > Hmmm... no, you've got the textual history messed up. Eonwe as son of
 > Manwe was an early idea that was written up and eventually discarded
 > (along with the 'children of the Valar' in general) in favor of him being
 > classified 'herald of Manwe'. His participation in the final battle
 > against Melkor at the end of Arda was also a long-standing element which
 > appears in several versions of the text.
 >
 > Thus, these were long standing (and in the one case abandoned) concepts
 > rather than 'proposed revisions that were never implemented'.

I knew that Conrad.

I just wanted you to jump in and tell me so I could ask you to tell the
group again why you thought Christopher Tolkien's "endowment" of Eonwe
was so wrong given the prior context.



While there was no backhistory, I always thought it was one of the things
he did okay.

M.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

Kristian Damm Jensen wrote:
 >
 > Michael O'Neill wrote:
 >
 > <snip>
 >
  > > Speakign of Orome, he was the Huntsman of the Valar and IMO I would
  > > consider him higher in battle prowess with weapons than Tulkas, but
  > > again not so high as Eonwe.
 >
 > So when Tulkas was the one who ultimately defeated Melkor in the Battle of the Valar, it was merely because Eonwe and Orome was to lazy to the job?

I always wondered about that, but I think it was probably Manwe's
restraint of his brethren that kept them back. Tulkas was less
restrained.

In addition, with Tulkas it was might against might, a sort of poetic
justice to show Melkor how far he had fallen, and how physically he had
deteriorated by letting his substance flow out of himself into his slaves
and the Stuff of Arda.

From being the mightiest without compare he fell to being defeated by
Tulkas, who I always took to be a slightly lesser light in the beginning.

IOW if either of the others had been used to subdue him and themselves
used their weapons, he could have claimed it wasn't a fair fight or won
by weaponry/trickery.

But mano á mano with the guileless Tulkas he couldn't seek solace or pity
that way.

M.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

Stan Brown wrote:

<snip>

> By the way, something may be wrong with your line length for
> original lines (not quotes). Your newsreader _seems_ to have posted
> your "So when Tulkas" as one long line. (I'm 95% sure, not 100%
> because the article is not yet available at Google.)

This time I think the fault lies with your newsreader. Googles clearly shows my posting split over three lines.

> Don't you just love Outlook?

Outlook, yes. Outlook Express, no.

--
Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk
Children seldom misquote you. In fact, they usually repeat word for
word what you shouldn't have said.
 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe? 

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.TakeThisOut@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> I suspect it's a bug in quoted-printable handling by Gravity.

And you just said (in another thread) that I should switch from OE to
Gravity.

I probably will get around to changing newsreader at some point, but
having just installed OEQuoteFix I am happy for now. And anyway, I have
more urgent problems to solve computer-wise, like trying to get rid of
some adware that sneaked onto my system...

Christopher

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 >> Stay informed about: Sauron Vs. Eonwe?