Sauron Question

On 17 May 2004 01:10:09 GMT,
IamSeanC <iamseanc.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote:
 > Here's a question that has been bothering me for the last couple days. Around
 > the time of The Hobbit, Sauron was in Dol Guldur. From reading Appendix A of
 > LOTR, it says that Aragorn spent some time around Mordor. My question is this,
 > Did Aragorn know that Sauron would be coming back to Mordor. He was after all,
 > in bodily form.He could be attacked. Could The White Council have tried to
 > waylay him on his trek back to Moror from Dol Guldur? Is there anything written
 > of this.

Aragorn was just a child when the White Council attacked Sauron. The White
Council obviously had no idea at the time that Sauron had been preparing his
return to Mordor. It was after the fact that they learned the flight from
Dol Guldur was, in fact, a ruse.

--
Aaron Clausen
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Robert J. Kolker wrote:
 > IamSeanC wrote:
 >
  >> in bodily form.He could be attacked. Could The White Council have
  >> tried to waylay him on his trek back to Moror from Dol Guldur? Is
  >> there anything written of this.
 >
 > The White Council was being undermined by Saruman. So even if they
 > could have attacked they would be been disuaded from doing so.

But the White Council *did* attack Dol Guldur with Saruman's full
blessing. After he had learned that Sauron's servants were searching for
the Ring in the vales of Anduin, Saruman needed to get Sauron out of the
area. He therefore changed his previous position of watchful waiting.

To answer IamSeanC's question, Sauron *was* physically attacked, or at
least his stronghold of Dol Guldur was. This was when he fled to Mordor.
This flight was a feint, in that he planned to relocate anyway. Since
his flight was apparently unhindered, I don't think there was anything
more the Council could have done to waylay him. There isn't much more
written on this, but apparently Sauron's escape plans were well
formulated, and probably included tactics to thwart pursuit.
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
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In article <sYWpc.5512$zn.3536@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>,
Bill O'Meally <omeallymd.TakeThisOut@wise.rr.com> wrote:
 >Robert J. Kolker wrote:
  >> IamSeanC wrote:

   >>> in bodily form.He could be attacked. Could The White Council have
   >>> tried to waylay him on his trek back to Moror from Dol Guldur? Is
   >>> there anything written of this.

  >> The White Council was being undermined by Saruman. So even if they
  >> could have attacked they would be been disuaded from doing so.

 >But the White Council *did* attack Dol Guldur with Saruman's full
 >blessing. After he had learned that Sauron's servants were searching for
 >the Ring in the vales of Anduin, Saruman needed to get Sauron out of the
 >area. He therefore changed his previous position of watchful waiting.
 >
 >To answer IamSeanC's question, Sauron *was* physically attacked, or at
 >least his stronghold of Dol Guldur was. This was when he fled to Mordor.
 >This flight was a feint, in that he planned to relocate anyway. Since
 >his flight was apparently unhindered, I don't think there was anything
 >more the Council could have done to waylay him. There isn't much more
 >written on this, but apparently Sauron's escape plans were well
 >formulated, and probably included tactics to thwart pursuit.

If they ever make a movie of The Hobbit I am hoping they will
actually show the assault on Dol Guldur. I wouldn't want it to be
a major part of the movie -- maybe 15 or 20 minutes total -- but
every now and then someone in Bilbo's party could grump about
Gandalf having deserted them, and then the movie could cut away
for a few minutes to show what was happening with Gandalf & co.
It would be a chance to bring in the full White Council from LOTR,
which I think a lot of people would appreciate, and since Saruman,
as head of the Council, would play a major role in the assault, it
would also to some degree recompensate Christopher Lee for the way
he was cut from ROTK.
--
John Brock
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"John Brock" <jbrock.TakeThisOut@panix.com> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
 >If they ever make a movie of The Hobbit I am hoping they will
 >actually show the assault on Dol Guldur. I wouldn't want it to be
 >a major part of the movie -- maybe 15 or 20 minutes total -- but
 >every now and then someone in Bilbo's party could grump about
 >Gandalf having deserted them, and then the movie could cut away
 >for a few minutes to show what was happening with Gandalf & co.
 >It would be a chance to bring in the full White Council from LOTR,

Meaning no disrespect, I think that would be a big mistake. Those
events happened off screen, so to speak, because they were at
variance with the tone and spirit of the story. There are already
five battle scenes of mounting severity: the dwarves and trolls, the
dwarves and goblins, Bilbo and the spiders, Smaug and the Lake-men,
and the battle of Five Armies. (And that's without counting Gandalf
versus the Wargs.) You want to add yet another one?

What makes /The Hobbit/ "work" is the fact that there are only bare
_hints_) of the wider world. Bilbo is a naive child discovering the
wide world as he grows up, and we see it through his eyes. If we
also started seeing things through Gandalf's eyes the story would
lose lots of its charm.

Let me guess: you liked Peter Jackson's version of /Lord of the
Rings/, right?

--
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In article <MPG.1b1297be47eb72d798c3e5 DeleteThis @news.odyssey.net>,
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown DeleteThis @fastmail.fm> wrote:
 >"John Brock" <jbrock DeleteThis @panix.com> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
  >>If they ever make a movie of The Hobbit I am hoping they will
  >>actually show the assault on Dol Guldur. I wouldn't want it to be
  >>a major part of the movie -- maybe 15 or 20 minutes total -- but
  >>every now and then someone in Bilbo's party could grump about
  >>Gandalf having deserted them, and then the movie could cut away
  >>for a few minutes to show what was happening with Gandalf & co.
  >>It would be a chance to bring in the full White Council from LOTR,

 >Meaning no disrespect, I think that would be a big mistake. Those
 >events happened off screen, so to speak, because they were at
 >variance with the tone and spirit of the story. There are already
 >five battle scenes of mounting severity: the dwarves and trolls, the
 >dwarves and goblins, Bilbo and the spiders, Smaug and the Lake-men,
 >and the battle of Five Armies. (And that's without counting Gandalf
 >versus the Wargs.) You want to add yet another one?

I wouldn't want a fully developed battle; in fact I think my
suggestion of 15 to 20 minutes was too high. What I was thinking
of was occasional of quick cuts away from the book story line to
show what Gandalf was doing at the same time. One of the dwarves
might complain about Gandalf slacking off and leaving them, and
then there would be a two minute cut to the White Council debating
whether to attack, then a cut back to the complaining dwarf.
Similar cuts might be a march on Dol Guldur, with the White Council
(does that include Radagast? -- it would be nice to give him a
speaking role!) and a host of Elvish warriors; a cut right into
the middle of a battle scene involving both physical fighting
between Elves and Orcs and magical contention between the Council
and the Necromancer; a scene where the the Council realizes that
the Necromancer has fled and the battle is won; and a final scene
where the Council has taken Dol Guldur, and they debate the identity
of the Necromancer (was he Sauron?) and how much time their victory
has bought them. The thing is, all of these scenes would be short,
a lot of the content would be talk rather than action, and they
could be used to establish more fully the connection between The
Hobbit and LOTR, which I think many of the moviegoers will be
expecting. The "Necromancer" is in fact mentioned very early in
The Hobbit as a fearsome being, so I don't think it would be
inappropriate to give him a little screen time.

 >What makes /The Hobbit/ "work" is the fact that there are only bare
 >_hints_) of the wider world. Bilbo is a naive child discovering the
 >wide world as he grows up, and we see it through his eyes. If we
 >also started seeing things through Gandalf's eyes the story would
 >lose lots of its charm.

The book is in fact written that way, but I'm not sure that's what
makes it "work", or that a movie would have to work the same way.
I see Dol Guldur as a way to bring a bit of LOTR into The Hobbit,
which I think the audience would appreciate, and which I don't
think is inappropriate (since it *is* after all supposed to be the
same world). I will concede though that it could be done badly.

 >Let me guess: you liked Peter Jackson's version of /Lord of the
 >Rings/, right?

As I've said elsewhere, I liked them well enough, but not as well
as I had hoped.
--
John Brock
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John Brock wrote:


 > I wouldn't want a fully developed battle; in fact I think my
 > suggestion of 15 to 20 minutes was too high. What I was thinking
 > of was occasional of quick cuts away from the book story line to
 > show what Gandalf was doing at the same time. One of the dwarves
 > might complain about Gandalf slacking off and leaving them, and
 > then there would be a two minute cut to the White Council debating
 > whether to attack, then a cut back to the complaining dwarf.
 > Similar cuts might be a march on Dol Guldur, with the White Council
 > (does that include Radagast? -- it would be nice to give him a
 > speaking role!) and a host of Elvish warriors; a cut right into
 > the middle of a battle scene involving both physical fighting
 > between Elves and Orcs and magical contention between the Council
 > and the Necromancer; a scene where the the Council realizes that
 > the Necromancer has fled and the battle is won; and a final scene
 > where the Council has taken Dol Guldur, and they debate the identity
 > of the Necromancer (was he Sauron?) and how much time their victory
 > has bought them. The thing is, all of these scenes would be short,
 > a lot of the content would be talk rather than action, and they
 > could be used to establish more fully the connection between The
 > Hobbit and LOTR, which I think many of the moviegoers will be
 > expecting. The "Necromancer" is in fact mentioned very early in
 > The Hobbit as a fearsome being, so I don't think it would be
 > inappropriate to give him a little screen time.
 >

I have to admit that, in my mind, I had no concept of any army being raised
against Dol Guldur, since I couldn't imagine where the required level of
resources would come from - Mirkwood, Lorien and Imladris? In my mind I had
this idea that the White Council worked together and used some kind of divine
power to drive Sauron from Dol Guldur, similar to what happened between Sauron
and Luthien (admittedly she had help) at Tol-in-Gaurhoth.

As for Sauron fleeing to Mordor, again in my mind I assumed that he forsook his
bodily form temporarily, similar to Melian when she passed out of Middle Earth.

Looks like I was completely wrong...

Best,
--
Ancalagon The Black, Secret Fire Of Angband
ancalagon.the.black RemoveThis @virgin.net


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Ancalagon The Black <ancalagon.the.black.TakeThisOut@virgin.net> wrote in
news:40a9357d_1@127.0.0.1:

 > As for Sauron fleeing to Mordor, again in my mind I assumed that he
 > forsook his bodily form temporarily, similar to Melian when she passed
 > out of Middle Earth.

I'm not sure about if he could have done that, Melian spent a lot of her
power in giving birth to Luthien, yet it is no where said that by doing so
or by maintaining the Girdle around Doriath for so many years she lost her
ability to change shape, and at any rate, she surely had the support of the
Powers. Sauron on the other hand lost at least part of that ability after
the downfall of Numenor, no longer he could apear noble before elves or
men, I don't know if that meant that even as his master, he could no longer
abandon his horrendous bodily form, I doubt anyway that he had any means of
hiding his escape to the white council, integrated by three wizards akin to
Sauron himself and Galadriel and Elrond, wise elf-lords wielding two of the
elven Rings of power.

A different matter is that in spite of not hiding his escape, he was
poweful enough to "flee" unhindered by the council.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <40a9357d_1.TakeThisOut@127.0.0.1>,
Ancalagon The Black <ancalagon.the.black.TakeThisOut@virgin.net> wrote:
 >John Brock wrote:

  >> I wouldn't want a fully developed battle; in fact I think my
  >> suggestion of 15 to 20 minutes was too high. What I was thinking
  >> of was occasional of quick cuts away from the book story line to
  >> show what Gandalf was doing at the same time. One of the dwarves
  >> might complain about Gandalf slacking off and leaving them, and
  >> then there would be a two minute cut to the White Council debating
  >> whether to attack, then a cut back to the complaining dwarf.
  >> Similar cuts might be a march on Dol Guldur, with the White Council
  >> (does that include Radagast? -- it would be nice to give him a
  >> speaking role!) and a host of Elvish warriors; a cut right into
  >> the middle of a battle scene involving both physical fighting
  >> between Elves and Orcs and magical contention between the Council
  >> and the Necromancer; a scene where the the Council realizes that
  >> the Necromancer has fled and the battle is won; and a final scene
  >> where the Council has taken Dol Guldur, and they debate the identity
  >> of the Necromancer (was he Sauron?) and how much time their victory
  >> has bought them. The thing is, all of these scenes would be short,
  >> a lot of the content would be talk rather than action, and they
  >> could be used to establish more fully the connection between The
  >> Hobbit and LOTR, which I think many of the moviegoers will be
  >> expecting. The "Necromancer" is in fact mentioned very early in
  >> The Hobbit as a fearsome being, so I don't think it would be
  >> inappropriate to give him a little screen time.

 >I have to admit that, in my mind, I had no concept of any army being raised
 >against Dol Guldur, since I couldn't imagine where the required level of
 >resources would come from - Mirkwood, Lorien and Imladris? In my mind I had
 >this idea that the White Council worked together and used some kind of divine
 >power to drive Sauron from Dol Guldur, similar to what happened between Sauron
 >and Luthien (admittedly she had help) at Tol-in-Gaurhoth.
 >
 >As for Sauron fleeing to Mordor, again in my mind I assumed that he forsook his
 >bodily form temporarily, similar to Melian when she passed out of Middle Earth.
 >
 >Looks like I was completely wrong...

This was just my own hand-waving scenario; I'm sure there are other
ways it could be done. I would certainly think that the White
Council would need, if not a massive army, then at least a significant
armed escort, if it wanted to approach Dol Guldur safely. The
Necromancer would surely have forces of his own, and Middle-Earth
does not seem to be a place where even powerful wizards battle
armies all by themselves. As for Sauron fleeing, you want the
movies to be consistent, and in the movie Sauron doesn't even have
a physical form, but he doesn't seem especially mobile either, so
it's not real clear in my head exactly what his flight would look
like. I'm sure something could be worked out though. (I suddenly
have this image of a huge flaming orange beachball bouncing away
through the forest!) :-O
--
John Brock
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On 17 May 2004 22:43:05 GMT,
Naryldor <naryldorNOSPAM RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> Ancalagon The Black <ancalagon.the.black RemoveThis @virgin.net> wrote in
> news:40a9357d_1@127.0.0.1:
>
>> As for Sauron fleeing to Mordor, again in my mind I assumed that he
>> forsook his bodily form temporarily, similar to Melian when she passed
>> out of Middle Earth.
>
> I'm not sure about if he could have done that, Melian spent a lot of her
> power in giving birth to Luthien, yet it is no where said that by doing so
> or by maintaining the Girdle around Doriath for so many years she lost her
> ability to change shape, and at any rate, she surely had the support of the
> Powers.

Actually, Tolkien does indicate in Osanwe-kenta that the act of giving birth
did indeed bind a Maiar. As to the support of the Valar, I have no evidence
of that. Neither do I see any indication that giving birth to Luthien spent
Melian's power, or any great part of it.

<snip>

--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca RemoveThis @hotmail.com
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AC <mightymartianca RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 17 May 2004 22:43:05 GMT,
> Naryldor <naryldorNOSPAM RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Ancalagon The Black <ancalagon.the.black RemoveThis @virgin.net> wrote in
>> news:40a9357d_1@127.0.0.1:
>>
>>> As for Sauron fleeing to Mordor, again in my mind I assumed that he
>>> forsook his bodily form temporarily, similar to Melian when she
>>> passed out of Middle Earth.
>>
>> I'm not sure about if he could have done that, Melian spent a lot of
>> her power in giving birth to Luthien, yet it is no where said that
>> by doing so or by maintaining the Girdle around Doriath for so many
>> years she lost her ability to change shape, and at any rate, she
>> surely had the support of the Powers.
>
> Actually, Tolkien does indicate in Osanwe-kenta that the act of
> giving birth did indeed bind a Maiar. As to the support of the
> Valar, I have no evidence of that. Neither do I see any indication
> that giving birth to Luthien spent Melian's power, or any great part
> of it.

And my theory, based entirely on quotes from _that_ chapter in 'The
Silmarillion' (Of the Ruin of Doriath), is that Thingol enabled Melian's
power, and that when Thingol died, Melian lost part of the potential of
her powers. Many disagree though...

Christopher

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On Mon, 17 May 2004 23:39:21 GMT,
Christopher Kreuzer <spamgard RemoveThis @blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> And my theory, based entirely on quotes from _that_ chapter in 'The
> Silmarillion' (Of the Ruin of Doriath), is that Thingol enabled Melian's
> power, and that when Thingol died, Melian lost part of the potential of
> her powers. Many disagree though...

There are, in my opinion, some real problems with basing such a notion upon
that chapter.

--
Aaron Clausen
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John Brock <jbrock.RemoveThis@panix.com> wrote:
 > As for Sauron fleeing, you want the
 > movies to be consistent, and in the movie Sauron doesn't even have
 > a physical form, but he doesn't seem especially mobile either, so
 > it's not real clear in my head exactly what his flight would look
 > like. I'm sure something could be worked out though. (I suddenly
 > have this image of a huge flaming orange beachball bouncing away
 > through the forest!) :-O

LOL!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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AC <mightymartianca.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:slrncaigad.3bg.mightymartianca@alder.alberni.net:

> Actually, Tolkien does indicate in Osanwe-kenta that the act of giving
> birth did indeed bind a Maiar. As to the support of the Valar, I have
> no evidence of that.
>
> <snip>
>

Well, perhaps not explicit support, but they definitively weren't
against her, Melian was allowed to return in the time of the exile of
the Noldor and the hiding of Valinor in spite of being the wife of
Thingol who was not of the Noldor but called the doom of Mandos and the
wrath of the Valar upon himself when he coveted the Silmarils.

Of course, Melian was not an elf but a Maia, but surely the Valar could
have banned her if they had thought she deserved it, not that I think
that she deserved any punishment, she warned Thingol of his danger
before sending Beren to the quest for the Silmaril and she told him
afterwards that he had ensnared Doriath in the doom of Mandos, she could
not take any action against it even if she had wanted to, which I doubt,
in spite of her love for Thingol.

And example of a punished Maia is found many years after, at the end of
the TA: Saruman was not allowed to return and was punished for his
conduct. Of course, Saruman did opose the Powers and he seeked the
dominion of ME.


> Neither do I see any indication that giving
> birth to Luthien spent Melian's power, or any great part of it.

Yes, my apologies, I was confused, I thougth the Silmarillion said that
she had to put forth part of her power to give birth to Luthien, but it
really says that she gained great power over the substance of Arda by
adquiring the form of an Elf (The ruin of Doriath) and the she lent
great power to Thingol (Of Thingol and Melian). I read it some time ago
and I didn't remember correctly.
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