How much did Sauron know?

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 06:07:15 GMT, sbjensen.DeleteThis@midway.uchicago.edu
(Steuard Jensen) wrote:

>had in the past. But it looks like nobody is immune from carelessly
>slipping into the prevailing cultural paradigm that they grew up with.

"A father and his son are in an auto accident: the father is killed
instantly and the son terribly injured. At the hospital, they send
the boy straight to the operating room for emergency surgery. As
they wheel him in, the surgeon takes one look and says 'I can't
operate on this boy: he's my son!'

How is this possible?"

The difficulty we have coming up with the incredibly simple solution
to this problem speaks volumes about our prevailing cultural
paradigms.

Jim Deutch
--
Psychoanalysis means saying one thing and meaning your mother.
 >> Stay informed about: How much did Sauron know? 

In article <3ff98272.7954558.TakeThisOut@news.compuserve.com>,
103134.3516.TakeThisOut@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 06:07:15 GMT, sbjensen.TakeThisOut@midway.uchicago.edu
> (Steuard Jensen) wrote:
>
> >had in the past. But it looks like nobody is immune from carelessly
> >slipping into the prevailing cultural paradigm that they grew up with.
>
> "A father and his son are in an auto accident: the father is killed
> instantly and the son terribly injured. At the hospital, they send
> the boy straight to the operating room for emergency surgery. As
> they wheel him in, the surgeon takes one look and says 'I can't
> operate on this boy: he's my son!'
>
> How is this possible?"

its his other father from an alternative lifestyle marriage

> The difficulty we have coming up with the incredibly simple solution
> to this problem speaks volumes about our prevailing cultural
> paradigms.

maybe even more difficult than you realize
 >> Stay informed about: How much did Sauron know? 

On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:53:29 -0500, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> wrote:

>In article <3ff98272.7954558 RemoveThis @news.compuserve.com> in
>rec.arts.books.tolkien, Jim Deutch wrote:
>> "A father and his son are in an auto accident: the father is killed
>> instantly and the son terribly injured. At the hospital, they send
>> the boy straight to the operating room for emergency surgery. As
>> they wheel him in, the surgeon takes one look and says 'I can't
>> operate on this boy: he's my son!'
>>
>> How is this possible?"
>>
>>The difficulty we have coming up with the incredibly simple solution
>>to this problem speaks volumes about our prevailing cultural
>>paradigms.
>
>Huh? What difficulty?
>
>Why on earth would a mother operate on her son, if any other surgeon
>was available?
>
>Sorry, but I'm missing your point somehow.

Try this on ten people who have never heard it before. Nine will
invent absurd theories of all sorts to account for it, or simply give
up. At best one will come up with the simple and obvious answer. I
personally am among the nine, as is my partner. Embarrassing, but
true.

Jim Deutch
 >> Stay informed about: How much did Sauron know? 

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:40:30 -0500, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown DeleteThis @fastmail.fm> wrote:

>I think the deal is that Sauron, and Morgoth before him, were
>psychotic. Psychosis is characterized by delusions, more or less
>well systematized.
>
>Morgoth managed to convince himself that Ilúvatar didn't exist, that
>there would be no accountability unless the Valar were strong enough
>to defeat him -- and for thousands of years they weren't.

I think that this statement should be qualified. I never had the
impression that Morgoth believed that Iluvatar did not exist, but
rather believed (and not without cause) that Iluvatar would not
intervene. Eventually Morgoth became so engrossed in his own
ambitions and designs that he ceased to think of the ultimate
consequences of his actions. He was, after all, a nihilist whose
ultimate goal was the destruction of everything.
>
>Sauron observed that Ilúvatar took no interest in the world for the
>whole Age of Stars and First and Second Ages of Sun, and persuaded
>himself that he too had a free hand in Middle-earth as long as he
>left the Valar alone. He sent Ar-Pharazôn against the Valar because
>he expected the Númenóreans to be crushed, not because he wanted to
>make war against the Valar. The intervention of Ilúvatar was a huge
>surprise to him.
>
>When he re-formed, it would not have been hard for him to persuade
>himself that getting the Valar involved was the only mistake he had
>made; that Ilúvatar was protecting them perhaps but had no interest
>in Middle-earth. Based on historical evidence, that wasn't so far
>from the mark! But Sauron's delusion was that he had managed to
>forget his knowledge of the Great Music, and Ilúvatar's statement
>that everything any of the Ainur did would be taken up and
>transformed into part of that Music.

I wonder if that was in fact part of how Sauron was initially
corrupted. He might have disapproved of some of Melkor's actions at
first, but excused "excesses" on the basis that Iluvatar would
eventually incorporate it into the plan anyway. Sooner or later, of
course, Sauron would cease to even think of Iluvatar and would
consider only the will of Morgoth or his own.

Morgoth's Curse
 >> Stay informed about: How much did Sauron know? 

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:34:03 -0600 from Morgoth's Curse
<morgothscurse2002.RemoveThis@nospam.yahoo.com>:
> On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:40:30 -0500, Stan Brown
> <the_stan_brown.RemoveThis@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> >I think the deal is that Sauron, and Morgoth before him, were
> >psychotic. Psychosis is characterized by delusions, more or less
> >well systematized.
> >
> >Morgoth managed to convince himself that Ilúvatar didn't exist, that
> >there would be no accountability unless the Valar were strong enough
> >to defeat him -- and for thousands of years they weren't.

I could be mistaken, but I don't believe I did, and neither does
Google. Please provide a citation.

> http://groups.google.com/groups/search?lr=&safe=off&num=30&q=%22%22Psy...sis+is+

> http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=&num=30&scoring=r&as_epq=Morgoth+...aged+to

> http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=&num=30&scoring=r&as_epq=&as_oq=n...countab

We have discussed before your irritating habit of resurrecting old
threads. I thought, following Steuard's suggestion, you had promised
to *summarize* rather than simply quote out of context.

In this instance you may or may not be quoting accurately. Certainly
I don't recall every word I wrote more than four effing years ago,
but it *is* suggestive that Google can't find the material you are
purportedly quoting.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: How much did Sauron know? 

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 04:14:35 -0500, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown DeleteThis @fastmail.fm> wrote:

The original post seems to have been made only to RABT. I'm not sure
why my newsreader crossposted it to both Tolkien newsgroups when I
answered it.

>I could be mistaken, but I don't believe I did, and neither does
>Google. Please provide a citation.

This is the complete text of the post as it originally appeared on
December 16, 2003, at 8:48 AM when Stan Brown responded to a post
thread started by Colin Davies on December 14, 2003 at 12:08 PM titled
"How much did Sauron know?":

In article <2f1159b5.0312141008.59d8112b DeleteThis @posting.google.com> in
rec.arts.books.tolkien, Colin Davies wrote:
>I ask because if he could remember the Music, then his actions seem
>futile. He must have known that he could never win, and at the end of
>Arda he would be held to account by Illuvator.
>
>It seems to me that even the most evil man would think twice about his
>actions if he had positive proof of a creator to whom he would be held
>accountable in the end.

I think the deal is that Sauron, and Morgoth before him, were
psychotic. Psychosis is characterized by delusions, more or less
well systematized.

Morgoth managed to convince himself that Ilúvatar didn't exist, that
there would be no accountability unless the Valar were strong enough
to defeat him -- and for thousands of years they weren't.

Sauron observed that Ilúvatar took no interest in the world for the
whole Age of Stars and First and Second Ages of Sun, and persuaded
himself that he too had a free hand in Middle-earth as long as he
left the Valar alone. He sent Ar-Pharazôn against the Valar because
he expected the Númenóreans to be crushed, not because he wanted to
make war against the Valar. The intervention of Ilúvatar was a huge
surprise to him.

When he re-formed, it would not have been hard for him to persuade
himself that getting the Valar involved was the only mistake he had
made; that Ilúvatar was protecting them perhaps but had no interest
in Middle-earth. Based on historical evidence, that wasn't so far
from the mark! But Sauron's delusion was that he had managed to
forget his knowledge of the Great Music, and Ilúvatar's statement
that everything any of the Ainur did would be taken up and
transformed into part of that Music.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm


>We have discussed before your irritating habit of resurrecting old
>threads. I thought, following Steuard's suggestion, you had promised
>to *summarize* rather than simply quote out of context.

I made no such promise. The Dead Thread Faction deems that anybody
who has sufficient intellect to use a newsreader has sufficient
intellect to be able to use Google or, alternately, a killfile.

FYI, I only use Forte Agent when posting to the newsgroups.

(Incidentally, Stan, a quick glance at the recent discussions reveals
that the oft-discussed issue of copyrights is being examined yet
again. Why are you not grumbling about other people discussing a
subject which has already been debated at length and from every
conceivable angle numerous times over the years? Alternately, why are
you not contributing to the discussion about whether or not Eomer
could read which seems to be more or less original?)
>
>In this instance you may or may not be quoting accurately. Certainly
>I don't recall every word I wrote more than four effing years ago,
>but it *is* suggestive that Google can't find the material you are
>purportedly quoting.

I don't understand why you were unable to find this post, Stan. I
just checked Google myself and found the thread prominently displayed
in RABT between Steuard's Tolkien newsgroups FAQ and the thread
"Family names."

Morgoth's Curse
 >> Stay informed about: How much did Sauron know? 

Fri, 22 Feb 2008 05:45:53 -0600 from Morgoth's Curse
<morgothscurse2002 DeleteThis @nospam.yahoo.com>:
> On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 04:14:35 -0500, Stan Brown
> <the_stan_brown DeleteThis @fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> The original post seems to have been made only to RABT. I'm not sure
> why my newsreader crossposted it to both Tolkien newsgroups when I
> answered it.
>
> >I could be mistaken, but I don't believe I did, and neither does
> >Google. Please provide a citation.
>
> This is the complete text of the post as it originally appeared on
> December 16, 2003, at 8:48 AM when Stan Brown responded to a post

That's not a citation. As I showed already, Google is unable to pull
up this article by any of several phrases and keywords. If I
actually posted it, which I beg leave to doubt, please provide the
URL in Google of the article I posted, not of the article you say I
was responding to.

And even if I did post that, why must you drag up years-old threads?
And if you cannot control this strange compulsion, why do you not
summarize the old thread before responding, as was discussed (and, I
thought, agreed) in this newsgroup?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: How much did Sauron know? 

Fri, 22 Feb 2008 05:45:53 -0600 from Morgoth's Curse
<morgothscurse2002.RemoveThis@nospam.yahoo.com>:
> This is the complete text of the post as it originally appeared on
> December 16, 2003, at 8:48 AM when Stan Brown responded to a post
> thread started ...


Sat, 23 Feb 2008 04:50:21 -0500 from Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown.RemoveThis@fastmail.fm>:
> please provide the URL in Google of the article I posted

Troels has done that for you. I withdraw my doubts, and I tender my
apology for doubting you.

I still don't understand why I couldn't find the article with three
different searches on its contents.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: How much did Sauron know? 

In message <news:MPG.2229b66d8f049d3298b4bc@news.individual.net>
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> spoke these staves:
>

<snip>

> As I showed already, Google is unable to pull up this article by
> any of several phrases and keywords.

I found it easily simply searching on the thread subject in the
subject field and '*.tolkien' in the group field.

> If I actually posted it, which I beg leave to doubt, please provide
> the URL in Google of the article I posted, not of the article you say
> I was responding to.

Thread:
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/browse_frm/thread/24f21714b01344ac/>
The article in question is (as I see the thread right now) number
27. The individual message is here:
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/1d44751157b1a89a>

It is posted via Supernews using Gravity v 2.60, but with a message
ID from news.odyssey.net.

That the message does carry your name and signature is of course an
indication of authorship, but by no means a foolproof one. It is,
however, usually enough to warrant citing.

> And even if I did post that, why must you drag up years-old
> threads? And if you cannot control this strange compulsion, why
> do you not summarize the old thread before responding, as was
> discussed (and, I thought, agreed) in this newsgroup?

Personally I don't mind the resurrection all that much -- many of
the topics we've discussed over the years can profitably be taken up
again, adding new insights and at places even perspectives from
newly published material.

I would, however, encourage the practice of making a summary in
order to provide a context.

In this case, the thread started with a question of how much Sauron,
or any other Ainu, would recall of what happened in the Timeless
Halls before+ they entered into Eä. The particular reason for the
question being the futility of fighting Eru and what was foresung in
the Music if you recalled both. So your answer must be seen in this
specific context: addressing whether Melkor and Sauron did or could
know their actions to be futile.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

One who cannot cast away a treasure at need is in fetters.
- Aragorn "Strider", /Two Towers/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
 >> Stay informed about: How much did Sauron know? 

Sat, 23 Feb 2008 20:25:40 +0100 from Troels Forchhammer
<Troels.RemoveThis@ThisIsFake.invalid>:
> In message <news:MPG.2229b66d8f049d3298b4bc@news.individual.net>
> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.RemoveThis@fastmail.fm> spoke these staves:
> > As I showed already, Google is unable to pull up this article by
> > any of several phrases and keywords.
>
> I found it easily simply searching on the thread subject in the
> subject field and '*.tolkien' in the group field.

Thank you! Following your lead, so did I. It still came up even when
I restricted it with my name as author.

This is quite strange. I was searching by phrase and by keyword, and
got nothing. Did I make some terrible blunder in my searches?

> > If I actually posted it, which I beg leave to doubt, please provide
> > the URL in Google of the article I posted, not of the article you say
> > I was responding to.

I withdraw my doubts.

> That the message does carry your name and signature is of course an
> indication of authorship, but by no means a foolproof one. It is,
> however, usually enough to warrant citing.

Yes, I agree.

> Personally I don't mind the resurrection all that much -- many of
> the topics we've discussed over the years can profitably be taken up
> again, adding new insights and at places even perspectives from
> newly published material.
>
> I would, however, encourage the practice of making a summary in
> order to provide a context.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: How much did Sauron know? 

Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> Personally I don't mind the resurrection all that much -- many of
> the topics we've discussed over the years can profitably be taken up
> again, adding new insights and at places even perspectives from
> newly published material.

I do note that Curse chose one of Stan's (of all people) posts to
resurrect, and after a long period of not engaging in the practice to
boot. Knowing how Stan feels about this practice, could this have been
Morgoth's Curse (I don't suspect he chose the name by accident! )
engaging in a bit of mischief?
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf _The Two Towers_
(The wise will remove "se" to reach me. The foolish will not!)
 >> Stay informed about: How much did Sauron know? 

Stan Brown wrote:

> And even if I did post that, why must you drag up years-old threads?

To this day scholars discuss works by Medieval and Classical authors
commenting on even older works of antiquity such as ancient Greece.
In this case they're dragging up old threads from a thousand years ago
or more! I'm sure people will be discussing Tolkien for long into
the future, with the added advantage unavailable to Ovid, Cato or
Virgil of electronic retrieval.

Anyway I'm glad to see any dialog at all on this forum, new threads or
otherwise. (Like something out of Aladdin -- "New threads for old!").

In fact I might comment on some years-old ones myself... how about if
I identify them with "[old]" in the Subject line?

Sean_Q_
 >> Stay informed about: How much did Sauron know? 

Sat, 23 Feb 2008 19:35:26 -0600 from Bill O'Meally
<omeallymd.DeleteThis@wise.rr.com>:
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> > Personally I don't mind the resurrection all that much -- many of
> > the topics we've discussed over the years can profitably be taken up
> > again, adding new insights and at places even perspectives from
> > newly published material.
>
> I do note that Curse chose one of Stan's (of all people) posts to
> resurrect, and after a long period of not engaging in the practice to
> boot. Knowing how Stan feels about this practice, could this have been
> Morgoth's Curse (I don't suspect he chose the name by accident! )
> engaging in a bit of mischief?

Gee, ya think?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: How much did Sauron know?