School's out for the summer!

"Joe Morris" <j.c.morris.RemoveThis@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:LzP4k.58532$bs3.15593@trnddc07...
> "victoreia" <inkypaws.RemoveThis@hawaii.nospam.rr.com> wrote:
>> On 6/10/2008 6:52 PM, Anne Elizabeth Baldwin wrote:
>> [snip]
>
>>>> victoreia ("$100 dollars for this skinny thing? What'd they print it
>>>> on,
>>>> handmade papyrus?")
>
>>> Prices that high are usually a sign of a small print run. When they
>>> only print a few books, each book has to cover more of the production
>>> costs. When that's the case, the publishers can be stuck, too.>>
>
>> From what I saw, these were _not_ small print runs! These were basic,
>> intro-level criminal justice textbooks, from the major publishers
> ^^^^^^^^
>> (Thompson, Allyn & Bacon, McGraw-Hill, Prentice, et. al.) And in some
>> cases, they would publish an "updated" textbook every year, with very
> ^^^^^^^^
>> minor changes--mostly cosmetic ("oh, they changed that picture" or "that
>> chart/graph/timeline got changed around a bit").
>
> The duck just now flew down and gave you $100. You twice said the magic
> word: "textbook;" that explains the high price. No additional explanation
> needed. 8-(

That is all too true. {lop-sided smile}


Anne Elizabeth Baldwin
 >> Stay informed about: School's out for the summer! 

"Tristaan" <tristaanus.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5rev4494gehheu0cq7jntr6nrpdm1hrfjn@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 20:45:09 -0700, Rhino7 stomped through my
> brain with:
>
>>Don't get me started on what Jackson & Co. did to Faramir. They redeemed
>>themselves a teeny bit in the extended version, but still.
>
> If I understand the back-story of the books, what Jackson did was
> a bit of a time compress. The battle of Osgiliath in the movie
> where Frodo, Sam and Gollum were present is something that had
> happened in the books before Boromir went to Imladris/Rivendell.
> It's an important plot point to explain why Osgiliath was
> important later and why Denethor felt so strongly about that
> city.

Noted.

> I think, from that same backstory, it can be implied that at one
> point in time, Faramir DID hold some of the same ideas as his
> brother, that the Ring could be used by Gondor to gain an
> advantage over the enemy. But the maturity that comes from the
> loss of Osgiliath and months in Ithilien carrying on guerilla
> warfare changed Faramir in the books... for the "entertainment"
> factor in the films, we needed to "see" that change of mind to
> understand why he just let Frodo, Sam, and Gollum go their way.

I would argue this. Denethor specifically calls Faramir "wizard's pupil"
because Faramir had a relationship with Gandalf very like that of Aragorn.
He was a scholar first, and a fighter second. He was loyal to the concept
of Gondor **with** a king returned. He had to explain Boromir's dream to
him. The fact that Boromir went to Rivendell instead was not his idea.
(Which is where the film gets it right.)

I always pictured Boromir at the Council of Elrond as feeling as out of
place as a high school grad at a doctorate seminar. <hehe>

> Tristaan (who enjoyed Faramir in the books but has no illusions
> that an "entertaining" version of the story will necessarily hold
> to the "letter" of the books)

The Bookwurm
---
Goddess of Libraries
Pedant in Chief
Keeper of the BotRoM
Sister Hand Grenade of Sweet Reason
Believer, Church of the Cosmic Muffin
<spam trap: remove fish from address>
 >> Stay informed about: School's out for the summer! 

> Ya gotta admit, though, that the insertion of "That still only
> counts as one!" at the battle of the Pelannor Fields was
> priceless.
>
> Tristaan

Conceded ... that was a hilarious comment on Legolas' Errol Flynn
completely-over-the-top downing of the Mumak.
It was exactly what was needed to counter the smug look on the elf's face.

The Bookwurm
---
Goddess of Libraries
Pedant in Chief
Keeper of the BotRoM
Sister Hand Grenade of Sweet Reason
Believer, Church of the Cosmic Muffin
<spam trap: remove fish from address>
 >> Stay informed about: School's out for the summer! 

Barry Ruck wrote:
> Marian Griffith wrote:
>> Anne Elizabeth Baldwin wrote:
>>
>>> True... but Tolkien found more ways to laugh with the characters
>>> instead of at them. I just wish Jackson and his co-writers had,
> too.
>>> {smile}
>> I think he did find some ways. The 'That still only counts as one'
>> remark from the last movie was funny.
> Which was Tolkien

Actually, no. There was no 'Legolas defeats a mumakil' scene in the
books. In fact there was not even an army of the dead at the Pelennor
fields. With the exception of the little bickering between Gimli and
Legolas at the end of the battle of Helm's Deep (and not even the whole
axe in brain part of it) we have to attribute all the Gimli jokes, both
the good and the bad ones, to Peter Jackson. Sadly the number of good
jokes is rather vastly outnumbered by the bad ones.

Another appalling scene in the extended edition of the second movie was
Eowyn giving Aragorn soup. I guess it had slipped the mind of the
writers that she was a princess and second in line to the throne of
Rohan after her brother Eomer. (or rather, her future husband was second
in line, given how male dominated her culture was). As a princess she
would never have allowed something inedible being served to her most
honoured guests and she would not be expected, nor allowed, to cook for
herself. The whole scene was beyond silly and did not need that ridicule
to lighten the mood.


Eri
--
Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
will there be loneliness ...

Rolan Choosing Talia,
Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey
 >> Stay informed about: School's out for the summer! 

"Rhino7" <laney2.TakeThisOut@comfishcast.net> wrote in message
news:7oqdnc1rsbmTgMDVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Tristaan" <tristaanus.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:5rev4494gehheu0cq7jntr6nrpdm1hrfjn@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 20:45:09 -0700, Rhino7 stomped through my
>> brain with:
>>
>>>Don't get me started on what Jackson & Co. did to Faramir. They redeemed
>>>themselves a teeny bit in the extended version, but still.
>>
>> If I understand the back-story of the books, what Jackson did was
>> a bit of a time compress. The battle of Osgiliath in the movie
>> where Frodo, Sam and Gollum were present is something that had
>> happened in the books before Boromir went to Imladris/Rivendell.
>> It's an important plot point to explain why Osgiliath was
>> important later and why Denethor felt so strongly about that
>> city.
>
> Noted.
>
>> I think, from that same backstory, it can be implied that at one
>> point in time, Faramir DID hold some of the same ideas as his
>> brother, that the Ring could be used by Gondor to gain an
>> advantage over the enemy. But the maturity that comes from the
>> loss of Osgiliath and months in Ithilien carrying on guerilla
>> warfare changed Faramir in the books... for the "entertainment"
>> factor in the films, we needed to "see" that change of mind to
>> understand why he just let Frodo, Sam, and Gollum go their way.
>
> I would argue this. Denethor specifically calls Faramir "wizard's pupil"
> because Faramir had a relationship with Gandalf very like that of Aragorn.
> He was a scholar first, and a fighter second. He was loyal to the concept
> of Gondor **with** a king returned. He had to explain Boromir's dream to
> him. The fact that Boromir went to Rivendell instead was not his idea.
> (Which is where the film gets it right.)
>
> I always pictured Boromir at the Council of Elrond as feeling as out of
> place as a high school grad at a doctorate seminar. <hehe>

{raise eyebrows} I think I attended seminars earlier than that. However,
Dad was a prof., so that kind of came with the territory. {REALLY BIG GRIN,
wink}


Anne Elizabeth Baldwin


>> Tristaan (who enjoyed Faramir in the books but has no illusions
>> that an "entertaining" version of the story will necessarily hold
>> to the "letter" of the books)
>
> The Bookwurm
 >> Stay informed about: School's out for the summer! 

Rhino7 wrote:
>
> I always pictured Boromir at the Council of Elrond as feeling as out of
> place as a high school grad at a doctorate seminar. <hehe>

More to the point, like a High School Football Player...

SAMK
 >> Stay informed about: School's out for the summer! 

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 20:47:11 +0200, Marian Griffith stomped
through my brain with:

>Another appalling scene in the extended edition of the second movie was
>Eowyn giving Aragorn soup. I guess it had slipped the mind of the
>writers that she was a princess and second in line to the throne of
>Rohan after her brother Eomer. (or rather, her future husband was second
>in line, given how male dominated her culture was). As a princess she
>would never have allowed something inedible being served to her most
>honoured guests and she would not be expected, nor allowed, to cook for
>herself. The whole scene was beyond silly and did not need that ridicule
>to lighten the mood.

While the soup part was a bit over the top, I think the inclusion
of the scene was necessary to a point. One thing that comes out
in the books (I'm re-reading again, BTW) is that it is
established early on that Aragorn has an extended life-span,
beyond that of "normal" men. That scene with Eowyn is the only
point that I recall in the films that the lifespan of the
Numenorean line is mentioned. It is enhanced further with the
voice over of Gandalf over Minas Tirith in the extended edition
but that long life-span never made it into the theatrical
version. That's a key point in the books as it is one reason why
the marriage of Arwen to Aragorn, while tragic for the elves, was
not going to be as incredibly tragic for Arwen as previously
pointed out. Aragorn's lifespan was going to be much longer than
normal and would live long with his elven wife (even though she
became mortal herself).

Tristaan
--
Beware Spam Trap!: "us" is an "ogre"
*******************************************************
Ogre-Monk, AIM TristaanOgre
"So good-bye for now and I'll see you again
Some way, some how
When it's my time to go to the other side
I'll hold you again and melt at your smile
Now I have all the ones that I am with
You taught me not to take for granted
The time that we have to show that we care
Speak into their lives and their hearts while they're here
And say I LOVE YOU!!"

~Disciple "Things Left Unsaid"

Theologian in training http://ballymennoniteblogger.blogspot.com/
*******************************************************
 >> Stay informed about: School's out for the summer! 

"SAMK" <dimarchos.TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Qq6dnQEyNcEjKcPVnZ2dnUVZ_vadnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Rhino7 wrote:
>>
>> I always pictured Boromir at the Council of Elrond as feeling as out of
>> place as a high school grad at a doctorate seminar. <hehe>
>
> More to the point, like a High School Football Player...

{BURST OF LAUGHTER}

Now that fits! {BIG GRIN}


Anne Elizabeth Baldwin
 >> Stay informed about: School's out for the summer! 

"Tristaan" <tristaanus RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:379v541c0cqugd26ep732moonjm9oqu0c5@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 20:47:11 +0200, Marian Griffith stomped
> through my brain with:
>
>>Another appalling scene in the extended edition of the second movie was
>>Eowyn giving Aragorn soup. I guess it had slipped the mind of the
>>writers that she was a princess and second in line to the throne of
>>Rohan after her brother Eomer. (or rather, her future husband was second
>>in line, given how male dominated her culture was). As a princess she
>>would never have allowed something inedible being served to her most
>>honoured guests and she would not be expected, nor allowed, to cook for
>>herself. The whole scene was beyond silly and did not need that ridicule
>>to lighten the mood.
>
> While the soup part was a bit over the top, I think the inclusion
> of the scene was necessary to a point. One thing that comes out
> in the books (I'm re-reading again, BTW) is that it is
> established early on that Aragorn has an extended life-span,
> beyond that of "normal" men. That scene with Eowyn is the only
> point that I recall in the films that the lifespan of the
> Numenorean line is mentioned. It is enhanced further with the
> voice over of Gandalf over Minas Tirith in the extended edition
> but that long life-span never made it into the theatrical
> version. That's a key point in the books as it is one reason why
> the marriage of Arwen to Aragorn, while tragic for the elves, was
> not going to be as incredibly tragic for Arwen as previously
> pointed out. Aragorn's lifespan was going to be much longer than
> normal and would live long with his elven wife (even though she
> became mortal herself).

I think you're right that they did need to make that point somewhere. I
wonder if there wasn't a better way to do it, tho. {small smile}


Anne Elizabeth Baldwin

> Tristaan
 >> Stay informed about: School's out for the summer! 

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 08:24:02 -0700, Rhino7 stomped through my
brain with:

>I would argue this. Denethor specifically calls Faramir "wizard's pupil"
>because Faramir had a relationship with Gandalf very like that of Aragorn.
>He was a scholar first, and a fighter second. He was loyal to the concept
>of Gondor **with** a king returned. He had to explain Boromir's dream to
>him. The fact that Boromir went to Rivendell instead was not his idea.
>(Which is where the film gets it right.)

I just started into the Two Towers so I'll have to look it up,
but I'm pretty sure that in the conversation between Faramir and
Frodo he mentions that he, too, thought about what he would do
should the ring fall into his hands. The implication there is
that he also entertained the notion of using the ring, perhaps
not the same way that Boromir intended, but in a Faramir sort of
way. Instead of the power of Command that Boromir wanted,
Faramir could have used the power of Knowledge to know the Enemy
movements, to delve into secret magics for defense, etc.

This is all speculation as to Fararmir's motiviations as they
aren't explicitly spelled out in the book. I'll post here once I
find the reference.

Tristaan
--
Beware Spam Trap!: "us" is an "ogre"
*******************************************************
Ogre-Monk, AIM TristaanOgre
"So good-bye for now and I'll see you again
Some way, some how
When it's my time to go to the other side
I'll hold you again and melt at your smile
Now I have all the ones that I am with
You taught me not to take for granted
The time that we have to show that we care
Speak into their lives and their hearts while they're here
And say I LOVE YOU!!"

~Disciple "Things Left Unsaid"

Theologian in training http://ballymennoniteblogger.blogspot.com/
*******************************************************
 >> Stay informed about: School's out for the summer! 

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:58:25 -1000, "Anne Elizabeth Baldwin"
<anneb @ aloha . net> stomped through my brain with:

> I think you're right that they did need to make that point somewhere. I
>wonder if there wasn't a better way to do it, tho. {small smile}

I think the original indication of Aragorn's age was in the
conversation between Strider and the Hobbits in Bree. Again, I'd
have to look it up. But since they kind of short-cutted the Bree
scenes, I'm not sure where they could have included that.

Tristaan
--
Beware Spam Trap!: "us" is an "ogre"
*******************************************************
Ogre-Monk, AIM TristaanOgre
"So good-bye for now and I'll see you again
Some way, some how
When it's my time to go to the other side
I'll hold you again and melt at your smile
Now I have all the ones that I am with
You taught me not to take for granted
The time that we have to show that we care
Speak into their lives and their hearts while they're here
And say I LOVE YOU!!"

~Disciple "Things Left Unsaid"

Theologian in training http://ballymennoniteblogger.blogspot.com/
*******************************************************
 >> Stay informed about: School's out for the summer! 

"Tristaan" <tristaanus.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dpq164tcmhe4f9gqj35reuh1ilpe63rppg@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 08:24:02 -0700, Rhino7 stomped through my
> brain with:
>
>>I would argue this. Denethor specifically calls Faramir "wizard's pupil"
>>because Faramir had a relationship with Gandalf very like that of Aragorn.
>>He was a scholar first, and a fighter second. He was loyal to the concept
>>of Gondor **with** a king returned. He had to explain Boromir's dream to
>>him. The fact that Boromir went to Rivendell instead was not his idea.
>>(Which is where the film gets it right.)
>
> I just started into the Two Towers so I'll have to look it up,
> but I'm pretty sure that in the conversation between Faramir and
> Frodo he mentions that he, too, thought about what he would do
> should the ring fall into his hands. The implication there is
> that he also entertained the notion of using the ring, perhaps
> not the same way that Boromir intended, but in a Faramir sort of
> way. Instead of the power of Command that Boromir wanted,
> Faramir could have used the power of Knowledge to know the Enemy
> movements, to delve into secret magics for defense, etc.
>
> This is all speculation as to Fararmir's motiviations as they
> aren't explicitly spelled out in the book. I'll post here once I
> find the reference.

Please do. I want to hear what you find. {SMILE}


Anne Elizabeth Baldwin
 >> Stay informed about: School's out for the summer! 

"Tristaan" <tristaanus DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0uq164tk75l3uljabbt7l3l77o80do6vsc@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:58:25 -1000, "Anne Elizabeth Baldwin"
> <anneb @ aloha . net> stomped through my brain with:
>
>> I think you're right that they did need to make that point somewhere. I
>>wonder if there wasn't a better way to do it, tho. {small smile}
>
> I think the original indication of Aragorn's age was in the
> conversation between Strider and the Hobbits in Bree. Again, I'd
> have to look it up. But since they kind of short-cutted the Bree
> scenes, I'm not sure where they could have included that.

I think you might be right, and that movie, I can't think of much to pull
to squeeze it in. But I'd think they could have squeezed into some other
part of TTT. That wasn't quite a crammed a film as the first one. {Smile}

> Tristaan

Anne Elizabeth Baldwin
 >> Stay informed about: School's out for the summer!