Secondary Mutations

blakgard RemoveThis @aol.comix.net (BlakGard) wrote in message news:<20040304075040.20170.00000838 RemoveThis @mb-m27.aol.com>...
 > Alex Peckover wrote:
   > >> I've always thought the "secondary mutations" idea weas kind of dumb,
   > >> but was wondering who all has been revealed to have these so far. This
   > >> is about as many as I can remember. Anyone else recall any more?
   > >>
   > >> White Queen - Diamond form
   > >> Beast - Cat-like appearence
   > >> Iceman - The ability to be decapitated and still live (at least
   > >> according to Austen)
  > >
  > > As far as Iceman goes, his powers have been evolving since his first
  > > appearance. IIRC, first he could only cover himself in ice, then he gained
  > > the ability to change completely in to ice etc. So I suppose his ability to
  > > reform himself using any available water makes a reasonable amount of
  > > sense.
 >
 > Indeed, and Austen didn't originate this idea.

The only problem I see with this is when he changes to human form
again. His entire body is eradicated. This includes all internal
organs. Heart, lungs, kidneys, liver, etc. So he can form a new body
out of water? Can he form all of his internal organs out of water? And
place them in the exact locations they need to be? And they function
correctly? I know it is a comic book and you have to bend a bit....
but this seems a bit too unbelieveable to me.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Secondary Mutations 

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:28:34 +0900, "Patrick McClue"
<mcclue.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

 >I think in Toad's case, his present form is the one he should have always
 >had, but experiments done to him (pre-natal? in infancy? can't remember)
 >halted his mutation. I don't think this would count as secondary mutation
 >either. It's more like showing his "true, healed form."

The story was inconsistent. At one point, it was mentioned that the
Black Womb people merely observed Toad's mutation; they could have
fixed his deficiencies to make him a 'better' mutant, but they didn't.
Somewhere else it was stated that they'd tinkered with him to create
his crappier mutation. I'm not really sure which version to believe.

Lia


"Send me a postcard from Conclusions, will you? Did you enjoy
your jump?" ---Turin
Freedom Force: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://members.fortunecity.com/rook1/ffintro.html" target="_blank">http://members.fortunecity.com/rook1/ffintro.html</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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tuna22 DeleteThis @aol.com (Bryan Mack) wrote in message news:<860dd285.0403050620.a5d45b5 DeleteThis @posting.google.com>...
 > blakgard DeleteThis @aol.comix.net (BlakGard) wrote in message news:<20040304075040.20170.00000838 DeleteThis @mb-m27.aol.com>...
  > > Alex Peckover wrote:
   > > >> I've always thought the "secondary mutations" idea weas kind of dumb,
   > > >> but was wondering who all has been revealed to have these so far. This
   > > >> is about as many as I can remember. Anyone else recall any more?
   > > >>
   > > >> White Queen - Diamond form
   > > >> Beast - Cat-like appearence
   > > >> Iceman - The ability to be decapitated and still live (at least
   > > >> according to Austen)
   > > >
   > > > As far as Iceman goes, his powers have been evolving since his first
   > > > appearance. IIRC, first he could only cover himself in ice, then he gained
   > > > the ability to change completely in to ice etc. So I suppose his ability to
   > > > reform himself using any available water makes a reasonable amount of
   > > > sense.
  > >
  > > Indeed, and Austen didn't originate this idea.
 >
 > The only problem I see with this is when he changes to human form
 > again. His entire body is eradicated. This includes all internal
 > organs. Heart, lungs, kidneys, liver, etc. So he can form a new body
 > out of water? Can he form all of his internal organs out of water? And
 > place them in the exact locations they need to be? And they function
 > correctly? I know it is a comic book and you have to bend a bit....
 > but this seems a bit too unbelieveable to me.

My pseudo-scientific B.S. explanation:

Upon activating his powers, Iceman's body is shunted into that
dimention where the Wasp's mass goes when she shrinks. It is replaced
with a duplicate body that is made of an ice-like substance (it is
only ice-like in that it is flexible enough for him to move and
stuff). The matter that makes up this ice body comes from that same
dimension (which is where Giant-Man gets the mass when he grows). This
ice-body retains the same abilities as his normal body - to further
manipulate moisture and freeze it into ice, or the ice-like substance
his body is made of.

Iceman doesn't literally have to recreate his body down to the
internal organ - he just has to create enough of a replica of his body
to activate the process of switching bodies back again.

This whole "pulling matter and energy in and out of another dimension"
thing can be used to explain pretty much any super-power, if you allow
for a variety of other types of energy and matter to be available
there.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Secondary Mutations 

"Alex Peckover" <alex.TakeThisOut@SPAMOFF.uklinux.net> wrote in message news:<c26nop$1oc13k$1@ID-32143.news.uni-berlin.de>...
 > "Bryan Mack" <tuna22.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote in message
 > news:860dd285.0403030822.79f0e08e@posting.google.com
  > > I've always thought the "secondary mutations" idea weas kind of dumb,
  > > but was wondering who all has been revealed to have these so far. This
  > > is about as many as I can remember. Anyone else recall any more?
  > >
  > > White Queen - Diamond form
  > > Beast - Cat-like appearence
  > > Iceman - The ability to be decapitated and still live (at least
  > > according to Austen)
 >
 > As far as Iceman goes, his powers have been evolving since his first
 > appearance. IIRC, first he could only cover himself in ice, then he gained
 > the ability to change completely in to ice etc. So I suppose his ability to
 > reform himself using any available water makes a reasonable amount of
 > sense.
 >
 > Alex

Iceman's ability to turn himself into pure ice was triggered by
Mikhail Rasputin. IIRC, Mikahil changed his body on a whim, more or
less wondering what would happen if Bobby could turn his body into
ice. Therefore, it can be argued that Iceman's steady progression
into an ice being is analogous to the power surges he experienced
during his tenure in X-Factor. With the manipulation of his power,
his increase in energy-manipulating levels would have the current
effect of triggering a permanent change in his physical status.

KW!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Bryan Mack (tuna22@aol.com) wrote:
: blakgard.RemoveThis@aol.comix.net (BlakGard) wrote in message news:<20040304075040.20170.00000838.RemoveThis@mb-m27.aol.com>...
: > Alex Peckover wrote:
: > >> I've always thought the "secondary mutations" idea weas kind of dumb,
: > >> but was wondering who all has been revealed to have these so far. This
: > >> is about as many as I can remember. Anyone else recall any more?
: > >>
: > >> White Queen - Diamond form
: > >> Beast - Cat-like appearence
: > >> Iceman - The ability to be decapitated and still live (at least
: > >> according to Austen)
: > >
: > > As far as Iceman goes, his powers have been evolving since his first
: > > appearance. IIRC, first he could only cover himself in ice, then he gained
: > > the ability to change completely in to ice etc. So I suppose his ability to
: > > reform himself using any available water makes a reasonable amount of
: > > sense.
: >
: > Indeed, and Austen didn't originate this idea.
:
: The only problem I see with this is when he changes to human form
: again. His entire body is eradicated. This includes all internal
: organs. Heart, lungs, kidneys, liver, etc. So he can form a new body
: out of water? Can he form all of his internal organs out of water? And
: place them in the exact locations they need to be? And they function
: correctly? I know it is a comic book and you have to bend a bit....
: but this seems a bit too unbelieveable to me.

I think the same questions crop up when you consider that he changes
completely to ice anyway. How is the ice that makes up his kidneys
different from the ice that makes up his arm? When he changes back, how
does he know what to turn back into 'heart tissue' and what to turn
into 'blood' and what to turn into 'brain'? I think you just have to sort
of assume that part of his mutant powers includes some sort of 'psychic
template' of his normal body, in the form he last left it, and when
creating a new body out of water or returning from ice, he just converts
the ice back to his template without consciously knowing exactly where
they are or how to make a kidney.

Peter Dimitriadis
 >> Stay informed about: Secondary Mutations 

 >I think the same questions crop up when you consider that he changes
 >completely to ice anyway. How is the ice that makes up his kidneys
 >different from the ice that makes up his arm? When he changes back, how
 >does he know what to turn back into 'heart tissue' and what to turn
 >into 'blood' and what to turn into 'brain'? I think you just have to sort
 >of assume that part of his mutant powers includes some sort of 'psychic
 >template' of his normal body, in the form he last left it, and when
 >creating a new body out of water or returning from ice, he just converts
 >the ice back to his template without consciously knowing exactly where
 >they are or how to make a kidney.
 >
 >Peter Dimitriadis
 >

Interesting, then. If he does this, doesn't that basically give him a sort of
healing factor of his own? If he's poisoned/sick/has his arm blown off, pop
into ice and back, and he's all better

_______________________
~wonkycyber/ANDREW Ingle
afu no movie akio -- with his Planeterium Playset!

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://members.tripod.com/~dark_revolution/" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/~dark_revolution/</a> -- The Dark Revolution

"Isn't it surrealistic and good?" ~Suzaku, Yuu Yuu Hakusho<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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wonkycyber The Dark Revolutionist wrote:
 > Interesting, then. If he does this, doesn't that basically give him a sort of
 > healing factor of his own? If he's poisoned/sick/has his arm blown off, pop
 > into ice and back, and he's all better

Depends, there might be some sort of body template based on the image, so if he doesn't
have an arm anymore, it might not reform. Remember when he got his chest blown out, and he
didn't want to transform back because he didn't want a hole in his flesh body? It might
work the other way around, if he doesn't 'believe' in his arm enough, it might not make
itself whole.
--
There is a significant difference between 'dignified and understanding' and 'suffering the
inane fools patiently' concerning the dregs of society.
-till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
consul RemoveThis @INVALIDdolphins-cove.com ((remove the INVALID to email))<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"wonkycyber The Dark Revolutionist" <v9cyberkid RemoveThis @aol.comMiracle> wrote in
message news:20040305154549.20136.00000908@mb-m27.aol.com...

 > Interesting, then. If he does this, doesn't that basically give him a sort
of
 > healing factor of his own? If he's poisoned/sick/has his arm blown off,
pop
 > into ice and back, and he's all better

IIRC didn't Emma Frost do pretty much precisely that in the story where her
mind took over his body. The body started to shift to a more feminine form
based on her self image, without long term problems.

And the AoA Iceman was able to do the same thing, and as he was already born
when the AoA trigger event occurred, he has the same mutation there as he
does in the mainstream MU.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Bryan Mack wrote:
   >>>> I've always thought the "secondary mutations" idea weas kind of dumb,
   >>>> but was wondering who all has been revealed to have these so far. This
   >>>> is about as many as I can remember. Anyone else recall any more?
   >>>>
   >>>> White Queen - Diamond form
   >>>> Beast - Cat-like appearence
   >>>> Iceman - The ability to be decapitated and still live (at least
   >>>> according to Austen)
   >>>
   >>> As far as Iceman goes, his powers have been evolving since his first
   >>> appearance. IIRC, first he could only cover himself in ice, then he
   >>> gained the ability to change completely in to ice etc. So I suppose
   >>> his ability to reform himself using any available water makes a
   >>> reasonable amount of sense.
  >>
  >> Indeed, and Austen didn't originate this idea.
 >
 > The only problem I see with this is when he changes to human form
 > again. His entire body is eradicated.

Why? We're talking about superheroes, here. In a world where a man can
turn his body to sand, get blown all over the place, then come back together;
the same for water, stone, energy, etc.

 > So he can form a new body out of water? Can he form all of his internal
 > organs out of water? And place them in the exact locations they need
 > to be? And they function correctly?

Yes.

 > I know it is a comic book and you have to bend a bit.... but this seems a bit
 > too unbelieveable to me.

Then you are not ready for comic books. I implore you not to pick up a
superhero comic book until you fix this.

-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Secondary Mutations 

wonkycyber The Dark Revolutionist wrote:
  >> I think the same questions crop up when you consider that he changes
  >> completely to ice anyway. How is the ice that makes up his kidneys
  >> different from the ice that makes up his arm? When he changes back, how
  >> does he know what to turn back into 'heart tissue' and what to turn
  >> into 'blood' and what to turn into 'brain'? I think you just have to sort
  >> of assume that part of his mutant powers includes some sort of 'psychic
  >> template' of his normal body, in the form he last left it, and when
  >> creating a new body out of water or returning from ice, he just converts
  >> the ice back to his template without consciously knowing exactly where
  >> they are or how to make a kidney.
 >
 > Interesting, then. If he does this, doesn't that basically give him a sort of
 > healing factor of his own? If he's poisoned/sick/has his arm blown off, pop
 > into ice and back, and he's all better

Yup. Remember, back in the 90s, he had a huge hole blasted through his
chest.

-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Secondary Mutations 

BlakGard wrote:
 > wonkycyber The Dark Revolutionist wrote:
  >>Interesting, then. If he does this, doesn't that basically give him a sort of
  >>healing factor of his own? If he's poisoned/sick/has his arm blown off, pop
  >>into ice and back, and he's all better
 > Yup. Remember, back in the 90s, he had a huge hole blasted through his
 > chest.

He had a hole when he was in ice form first, not in flesh form. I still like my idea that
there is the 'ideal form' that they unconsciously pop in and out of, so they do not have
to make the decisions of organ placement. But with the flesh arm blown off, it might
change his default ideal form. So as ice, he could make the arm, but it would be gone when
he fleshed up.
--
There is a significant difference between 'dignified and understanding' and 'suffering the
inane fools patiently' concerning the dregs of society.
-till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
consul RemoveThis @INVALIDdolphins-cove.com ((remove the INVALID to email))<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Secondary Mutations 

wonkycyber The Dark Revolutionist (v9cyberkid@aol.comMiracle) wrote:
: >I think the same questions crop up when you consider that he changes
: >completely to ice anyway. How is the ice that makes up his kidneys
: >different from the ice that makes up his arm? When he changes back, how
: >does he know what to turn back into 'heart tissue' and what to turn
: >into 'blood' and what to turn into 'brain'? I think you just have to sort
: >of assume that part of his mutant powers includes some sort of 'psychic
: >template' of his normal body, in the form he last left it, and when
: >creating a new body out of water or returning from ice, he just converts
: >the ice back to his template without consciously knowing exactly where
: >they are or how to make a kidney.
: >
: >Peter Dimitriadis
: >
:
: Interesting, then. If he does this, doesn't that basically give him a sort of
: healing factor of his own? If he's poisoned/sick/has his arm blown off, pop
: into ice and back, and he's all better
:
Good point. Well, it's possible it works that way, but it could also work
so that if he's wounded and he turns back, he stays wounded, because
that's the way his body 'remembers' him last being. Viruses may or may
not survive the change (if they're considered part of his body, they
might, otherwise they could simply freeze to death).

That would seem to make a little more sense from a dramatic standpoint.
It still leaves the problem that he's virtually immortal while staying in
ice though, but that's not so much of a problem.

Peter Dimitriadis
 >> Stay informed about: Secondary Mutations 

"Alex Peckover" <alex DeleteThis @SPAMOFF.uklinux.net> wrote in
news:c26nop$1oc13k$1@ID-32143.news.uni-berlin.de:

 > "Bryan Mack" <tuna22 DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote in message
 > news:860dd285.0403030822.79f0e08e@posting.google.com
  >> I've always thought the "secondary mutations" idea weas kind of dumb,
  >> but was wondering who all has been revealed to have these so far.
  >> This is about as many as I can remember. Anyone else recall any more?
  >>
  >> White Queen - Diamond form
  >> Beast - Cat-like appearence
  >> Iceman - The ability to be decapitated and still live (at least
  >> according to Austen)
 >
 > As far as Iceman goes, his powers have been evolving since his first
 > appearance. IIRC, first he could only cover himself in ice, then he
 > gained the ability to change completely in to ice etc. So I suppose
 > his ability to reform himself using any available water makes a
 > reasonable amount of sense.

Besides, the stuff with Iceman came directly out of X-Men Forever which,
IIRC, predated Morrison's run.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Secondary Mutations