The Shining - Native American subtext?

 >One of the points given was that the name Overlook Hotel refers to
 >modern Americans "overlooking" the destruction of the Native
 >Americans. Is there any evidence to support this, or is it just a case
 >of someone trying to shoehorn their interpretation onto someone elses
 >work?
 >
 >Fishy

I think this is a good example of people looking way too hard for cryptic
meaning in a story that already has plenty of non-cryptic meaning.

PZB<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Poppy Z. Brite" <loneegret.TakeThisOut@aol.comeatspam> wrote in message
news:20040524141821.16730.00001863@mb-m12.aol.com...
  > >One of the points given was that the name Overlook Hotel refers to
  > >modern Americans "overlooking" the destruction of the Native
  > >Americans. Is there any evidence to support this, or is it just a case
  > >of someone trying to shoehorn their interpretation onto someone elses
  > >work?
  > >
  > >Fishy
 >
 > I think this is a good example of people looking way too hard for cryptic
 > meaning in a story that already has plenty of non-cryptic meaning.
 >

As well as its share of cryptic meaning, such as name symbolism of
characters.

DM<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The Shining - Native American subtext? 

"FishyFish" <fishyfish.RemoveThis@BTInternet.com> wrote in message
news:i0s3b055lbic07aphtq8npveqd2g56vggk@4ax.com...
 > Been having a discussion on another forum where someone is stating
 > that Kubricks' film version of The Shining is a metaphor for the
 > destruction of the Native American peoples.
 >
 > While I don't disagree that Kubrickmay have inserted such subtexts, is
 > there any evidence that King did the same? I've certainly not heard of
 > any myself.
 >
 > One of the points given was that the name Overlook Hotel refers to
 > modern Americans "overlooking" the destruction of the Native
 > Americans. Is there any evidence to support this, or is it just a case
 > of someone trying to shoehorn their interpretation onto someone elses
 > work?
 >
 > Fishy
 > --

I don't believe either King or Kubrick put any political subtexts into this
particular story. Neither the written work nor the film have any connection
with the destruction of the Native American culture that I can see. The idea
is just way too "kooky".

Margaret









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 >> Stay informed about: The Shining - Native American subtext? 

On Tue, 25 May 2004, Margaret Giacomello wrote:

 >
 > "FishyFish" <fishyfish DeleteThis @BTInternet.com> wrote in message
 > news:i0s3b055lbic07aphtq8npveqd2g56vggk@4ax.com...
  > > Been having a discussion on another forum where someone is stating
  > > that Kubricks' film version of The Shining is a metaphor for the
  > > destruction of the Native American peoples.
  > >
  > > While I don't disagree that Kubrickmay have inserted such subtexts, is
  > > there any evidence that King did the same? I've certainly not heard of
  > > any myself.
  > >
  > > One of the points given was that the name Overlook Hotel refers to
  > > modern Americans "overlooking" the destruction of the Native
  > > Americans. Is there any evidence to support this, or is it just a case
  > > of someone trying to shoehorn their interpretation onto someone elses
  > > work?
  > >
  > > Fishy
  > > --
 >
 > I don't believe either King or Kubrick put any political subtexts into this
 > particular story. Neither the written work nor the film have any connection
 > with the destruction of the Native American culture that I can see. The idea
 > is just way too "kooky".

The use of Native American Art in the film seemed to be because the
zigzagging lines suggested flames, and Kubrick was going for a Hell-like
ambiance. He wasn't saying anything about Native Americans being
Satanic, though.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The Shining - Native American subtext? 

On Mon, 24 May 2004 13:58:29 +0100, FishyFish
<fishyfish RemoveThis @BTInternet.com> whipped out "The Mallet O' Understanding"
and bashed *this* into my head:

 >Been having a discussion on another forum where someone is stating
 >that Kubricks' film version of The Shining is a metaphor for the
 >destruction of the Native American peoples.
 >
 >While I don't disagree that Kubrickmay have inserted such subtexts, is
 >there any evidence that King did the same? I've certainly not heard of
 >any myself.
 >
 >One of the points given was that the name Overlook Hotel refers to
 >modern Americans "overlooking" the destruction of the Native
 >Americans. Is there any evidence to support this, or is it just a case
 >of someone trying to shoehorn their interpretation onto someone elses
 >work?

Sounds like this guy in the other forum should consider cutting back
just a *tad* on his consumption of cannabis.

___________________________________________________

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the downtown mission's packed too tight,
with folks that got nowhere to go."

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 >> Stay informed about: The Shining - Native American subtext? 

I don't find myself much in agreement or a great deep reader of Freud
but one thing he seems pretty clear on despite his obsessional
convictions about everything being about sex or your mother and that is
that, on very rare occasions, sometimes a tunnel is only a tunnel
and a cigar is only a cigar.

I can't imagine parsing for analysis every word or 'worse', every
possible implication of every word or bit of imagery of a writer, book
or song, who wrote a million books and each one with a thousand pages.
Well, not quite.

And assuming he/she did it consciously.

I think sometimes Stephen King, like every good artist, story or song,
is just having fun with us, and sometimes he's just plain having fun,
and sometimes he's weaving a bit of tapestry and loses the thread, or
loses interest, and sometimes he's just writing a story. Mostly I
think he's just writing a story, giving the readers the 'gotta's,
gotta know what happens next.

He is not famous for his books replete with blatant political
statements, and subtle is not his prime writing agenda in terms of
sublimated political ideas that I can notice. Although I must admit
that Martin Sheen is not an actor I adore, but his role in "The Dead
Zone" is done.....I'd say as good as he gets.

I think in the case of "The Shining" and the Native Americans we're
talking tunnels and cigars.

Just MO.


Barbara
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"John Mann" <metroboyeh5.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote

  > >One of the points given was that the name Overlook Hotel refers to
  > >modern Americans "overlooking" the destruction of the Native
  > >Americans. Is there any evidence to support this, or is it just a case
  > >of someone trying to shoehorn their interpretation onto someone elses
  > >work?
 >
 > Sounds like this guy in the other forum should consider cutting back
 > just a *tad* on his consumption of cannabis.

Or he's not taking enough.


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Currently reading: The Coffin Dancer [Jeffrey Deaver]<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The Shining - Native American subtext? 

FishyFish wrote:
 > Been having a discussion on another forum where someone is stating
 > that Kubricks' film version of The Shining is a metaphor for the
 > destruction of the Native American peoples.
 >
 > While I don't disagree that Kubrickmay have inserted such subtexts, is
 > there any evidence that King did the same? I've certainly not heard of
 > any myself.
 >
 > One of the points given was that the name Overlook Hotel refers to
 > modern Americans "overlooking" the destruction of the Native
 > Americans. Is there any evidence to support this, or is it just a case
 > of someone trying to shoehorn their interpretation onto someone elses
 > work?

Have you Googled for it? I found this site:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.drummerman.net/shining/essays.html" target="_blank">http://www.drummerman.net/shining/essays.html</a>

It's a 1987 essay by Bill Blakemore, published in the San Francisco
Chronicle. This seems to be the source of this theory.

Erik.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The Shining - Native American subtext? 

Although I think Blakemore might be reaching a tad, he does make some really
interesting points. I found the "highlights" off another site than the previous
one. Here they be:

14/ What are the references to Native Americans and what do they mean?
In 1987 Bill Blakemore published an influential essay called "The Family of
Man" in the San Francisco Chronicle. Blakemore argued The Shining wasn't really
about the murders at the Overlook Hotel. But about the murder of the Native
American race

He makes a number of interesting observations to support his case. You can read
the entire essay on-line by visiting The Kubrick Site, but here are a few
salient points:-

(1) The profusion of Indian motifs that decorate the hotel, and serve as
background in many of the key scenes represent the fate of the Indians in the
USA, woven into the very fabric of the country although denied a voice.

(2) the insertion of two lines, early in the film, describing how the hotel was
built on an Indian burial ground.

(3) The Calumet baking powder cans, in the food store, with their Indian chief
logo that Kubrick placed carefully in the two food-locker scenes. (A calumet is
a peace pipe.)

(4) Blakemore calls these observations "confirmers" such as puzzle-makers often
use to tell you you're on the right track. He goes onto say, "The Shining is
also explicitly about America's general inability to admit to the gravity of
the genocide of the Indians -- or, more exactly, its ability to "overlook" that
genocide. Not only is the site called the Overlook Hotel with its Overlook
Maze, but one of the key scenes takes place at the July 4th Ball. That date,
too, has particular relevance to American Indians. That's why Kubrick made a
movie in which the American audience sees signs of Indians in almost every
frame, yet never really sees what the movie's about. The film's very
relationship to its audience is thus part of the mirror that this movie full of
mirrors holds up to the nature of its audience."

whether or not it's true is one thing, but it's kinda inneresting.

don
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"DLew" <dlew022.RemoveThis@aol.commoncause> wrote in message
news:20040526214515.29731.00002128@mb-m05.aol.com...
 > Although I think Blakemore might be reaching a tad, he does make some
really
 > interesting points. I found the "highlights" off another site than the
previous
 > one. Here they be:
 >
 > 14/ What are the references to Native Americans and what do they mean?
 > In 1987 Bill Blakemore published an influential essay called "The Family
of
 > Man" in the San Francisco Chronicle. Blakemore argued The Shining wasn't
really
 > about the murders at the Overlook Hotel. But about the murder of the
Native
 > American race
 >
 > He makes a number of interesting observations to support his case. You can
read
 > the entire essay on-line by visiting The Kubrick Site, but here are a few
 > salient points:-
 >
 > (1) The profusion of Indian motifs that decorate the hotel, and serve as
 > background in many of the key scenes represent the fate of the Indians in
the
 > USA, woven into the very fabric of the country although denied a voice.

A guy from Maine visiting the west for the first time would notice that sort
of difference in decorations, but they are very commonly used out here,
especially in touristy places.

 >
 > (2) the insertion of two lines, early in the film, describing how the
hotel was
 > built on an Indian burial ground.

I'm not even sure if this is from the book or Kubrick made it up. Someone
else might answer that better.

 >
 > (3) The Calumet baking powder cans, in the food store, with their Indian
chief
 > logo that Kubrick placed carefully in the two food-locker scenes. (A
calumet is
 > a peace pipe.)

It is also the most commonly used baking powder brand out here. There were
loads of other brands shown too.

 >
 > (4) Blakemore calls these observations "confirmers" such as puzzle-makers
often
 > use to tell you you're on the right track. He goes onto say, "The Shining
is
 > also explicitly about America's general inability to admit to the gravity
of
 > the genocide of the Indians -- or, more exactly, its ability to "overlook"
that
 > genocide. Not only is the site called the Overlook Hotel with its Overlook
 > Maze, but one of the key scenes takes place at the July 4th Ball. That
date,
 > too, has particular relevance to American Indians. That's why Kubrick made
a
 > movie in which the American audience sees signs of Indians in almost every
 > frame, yet never really sees what the movie's about. The film's very
 > relationship to its audience is thus part of the mirror that this movie
full of
 > mirrors holds up to the nature of its audience."
 >
 > whether or not it's true is one thing, but it's kinda inneresting.
 >
 > don
 >
 >

Yeah, it is interesting, but reaching too. A good topic maybe, but not one
that was part of this story.

Liz


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 >> Stay informed about: The Shining - Native American subtext? 

Dr. Barbara Horwitz wrote:

 > I don't find myself much in agreement or a great deep reader of Freud
 > but one thing he seems pretty clear on despite his obsessional
 > convictions about everything being about sex or your mother and that is
 > that, on very rare occasions, sometimes a tunnel is only a tunnel
 > and a cigar is only a cigar.
 >
 > I can't imagine parsing for analysis every word or 'worse', every
 > possible implication of every word or bit of imagery of a writer, book
 > or song, who wrote a million books and each one with a thousand pages.
 > Well, not quite.
 >
 > And assuming he/she did it consciously.

If that's what really floats your boat, you can always read James
Joyce's FINNEGANS WAKE

stePH
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"A lion will exert himself to the utmost, even when entering the tiger's
den to throw baby rabbits off a cliff!" -- Moroboshi Ataru<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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