Significance of the solar wind

In article <20040825234021.04822.00002337.RemoveThis@mb-m05.aol.com>,
anim8rfsk.RemoveThis@aol.comNOSPAM (ANIM8Rfsk) wrote:

 > << From: steve.RemoveThis@antispam.sforbesa.cix.co.uk (Stephen Forbes) >>
 >
 >
 > << An attitude jet gathers fuel over a distance of say 10,000 miles. >>
 >
 > Do you have a cite for that, or did you make that figure up?
 >

That figure was put there for scaling purposes only as it bears no
influence whatsoever on the final figures given. But IIRC in "The Ethics
of Madness" The ramscoop field spread over 1,000 miles. I figured the
Ringworld builders were better than that but there are limits.

 >
 > << The Hindmost limited the flares to the rim wall so a spread of
 > 10,000 miles for a flare is reasonable and may even be an overestimate.
   > >>
 >
 > Oh. k.
 >
 > << A spread of 10,000 miles equates to a surface area of 100,000,000
 > square miles. >>
 >
 > How far apart are the attitude jets? And what makes you think the
 > Hindmost has
 > to spread the flare symmetrically?
 >

Can't you do any maths yourself? 200 jets per wall, evenly spaced along a
circumference of 5.97 x 10^8 miles gives a spacing of 3,000,000 miles
approx. I don't see any flare likely to be spreading anywhere near that
far.

The Hindmost probably had no choice about the final shape of the flare, as
the meteor defence isn't designed to guide a flare all the way to the
Ringworld surface. Once the flare has lased there is no point continuing
to guide it, so why build the capability in? That's why Teela had to die,
as a protector she thought she knew it all when she clearly didn't. All
the Hindmost added was a superior aiming capability and certainly the
description of what happened at the end of Engineers in Throne means that
a flare isn't likely to spread further than I specified.

Stephen

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<< From: steve.RemoveThis@antispam.sforbesa.cix.co.uk (Stephen Forbes) >>


<< Can't you do any maths yourself? >>

Hey, ya know, I tried to speak civilly to you. I don't have the books here and
didn't have the figure for how many jets there are. Since you seem to have
nothing but a lot of unwarranted attitude and wrong answers, how about if you
eat odorous flup and die?

plonk
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Lurching back into the heart of the story, steve at sforbesa cix co uk writes:
 >the meteor defence isn't designed to guide a flare all the way to the
 >Ringworld surface. Once the flare has lased there is no point continuing
 >to guide it, so why build the capability in? That's why Teela had to die,
 >as a protector she thought she knew it all when she clearly didn't. All
 >the Hindmost added was a superior aiming capability and certainly the

Teela must have been able to figure out that the Hindmost was capable of
fixing the system so that nobody had to die.

More likely, Teela killed herself so that because she knew she couldn't
beat Bram, and she wanted Louis to care for the ringworld. There's some
hints about Pak psychology in RWC that seems to bear this out. *
--
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<< From: pv+usenet@pobox.com (Paul Vader) >>


<< Teela must have been able to figure out that the Hindmost was capable of
fixing the system so that nobody had to die. >>

The hindmost still likely killed thousands or millions, just not billions or
trillions. Certainly he fried a lot of Spill Mountain people.

The question is, how many losses would have been acceptable to Teela? She
couldn't kill billions to save trillions. Could she kill millions? Hundreds
of thousands? Thousands? Hundreds? Clearly she could kill a handful.
 >> Stay informed about: Significance of the solar wind 

 >Teela must have been able to figure out that the Hindmost was capable of
 >fixing the system so that nobody had to die.

Some *did* die; recall the "Death Light" dialogue in RT?

The flare redirection mitigated trillions of dead to a far lesser number, but
not zero.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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anim8rfsk RemoveThis @aol.comNOSPAM (ANIM8Rfsk) writes:
 >The hindmost still likely killed thousands or millions, just not billions or
 >trillions. Certainly he fried a lot of Spill Mountain people.

Do we know that? With all the action going on 900 miles overhead, with the
atmosphere some aid from the superconductor grid keeping the flares under
control, there's no reason that millions had to die - I wouldn't want to be
*directly* under a thruster, but since there's less than 200 of them, it
probably wasn't a mass die-off of spill mountain people.

 >The question is, how many losses would have been acceptable to Teela? She

If Teela as in the Pak mode of thought that she was protecting the entire
ringworld, and not just her breeders (of which there weren't any), then
yeah, any death would have been a hard choice. On the other hand, Tunesmith
is mostly in this mode, and he had no qualms about driving billions of
ringworld inhabitants insane by exposing them to the Blind Spot for hours.

 >couldn't kill billions to save trillions. Could she kill millions? Hundreds
 >of thousands? Thousands? Hundreds? Clearly she could kill a handful.

Yup. There's clearly more to Teela's choices than meet the eye. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
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<< From: pv+usenet@pobox.com (Paul Vader) >>


<< If Teela as in the Pak mode of thought that she was protecting the entire
ringworld, and not just her breeders (of which there weren't any) >>

oh?


<< On the other hand, Tunesmith
is mostly in this mode, and he had no qualms about driving billions of
ringworld inhabitants insane by exposing them to the Blind Spot for hours. >>

Yeah, I think what Tunesmith did was a LOT more destructive to the populace
than just blowtorching part of the arch would have been.
 >> Stay informed about: Significance of the solar wind 

In article <10iuhq2818pv9c4 DeleteThis @news.supernews.com>, pv+usenet@pobox.com (Paul
Vader) wrote:

 > Do we know that? With all the action going on 900 miles overhead, with
 > the
 > atmosphere some aid from the superconductor grid keeping the flares
 > under
 > control, there's no reason that millions had to die - I wouldn't want
 > to be
 > *directly* under a thruster, but since there's less than 200 of them, it
 > probably wasn't a mass die-off of spill mountain people.

Actually, I would have thought that the *safest* place was directly under
a thruster. You are shielded from solar flares by the thrusters magnetic
fuel feed system and from the flame by the mounting or rim wall (depending
on where you think the thruster is mounted).

Stephen

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In article <20040826164754.19394.00004302.RemoveThis@mb-m04.aol.com>,
anim8rfsk.RemoveThis@aol.comNOSPAM (ANIM8Rfsk) wrote:

 > << From: steve.RemoveThis@antispam.sforbesa.cix.co.uk (Stephen Forbes) >>
 >
 >
 > << Can't you do any maths yourself? >>
 >
 > Hey, ya know, I tried to speak civilly to you. I don't have the books
 > here and
 > didn't have the figure for how many jets there are. Since you seem to
 > have
 > nothing but a lot of unwarranted attitude and wrong answers, how about
 > if you
 > eat odorous flup and die?
 >
 > plonk
 >
 >
You must enjoy being stupid with a poor memory and a scrambled analytical
capability.
BTW I didn't need to look up any numbers to figure out the spacing of the
jets, and I still came up with the right answer.

Stephen

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 >> Stay informed about: Significance of the solar wind 

anim8rfsk.DeleteThis@aol.comNOSPAM (ANIM8Rfsk) writes:
 ><< If Teela as in the Pak mode of thought that she was protecting the entire
 >ringworld, and not just her breeders (of which there weren't any) >>
 >
 >oh?

Er. Well. Never mind that part.

 >Yeah, I think what Tunesmith did was a LOT more destructive to the populace
 >than just blowtorching part of the arch would have been.

I think it's the big flaw of RWC. I was fairly happy with the book right up
to the end. I just can't see a Pak doing that. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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<< From: pv+usenet@pobox.com (Paul Vader) >>


<< >Yeah, I think what Tunesmith did was a LOT more destructive to the populace
 >than just blowtorching part of the arch would have been.

I think it's the big flaw of RWC. I was fairly happy with the book right up
to the end. I just can't see a Pak doing that. >>

I thought, given that he was using autobot technology, that he was teaching the
ring to be self healing, to protect against anti-matter bombs. It never
occured to me what he was really doing until he actually launched.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In article <memo.20040825210133.379A.TakeThisOut@sforbesa.compulink.co.uk>,
steve.TakeThisOut@antispam.sforbesa.cix.co.uk (Stephen Forbes) wrote:

 > I have been receiving a lot of argument about how thin and
 > insignificant the solar wind is especially when compared to a solar
 > flare. This is my answer to that.
 >
 > Taking figures gleaned from Engineers and elsewhere:
 > A solar flare effectively multiplies the solar wind by a factor of 20.
 > (Firing a solar flare at an attitude jet increased its fuel flow by 20)
 > An attitude jet gathers fuel over a distance of say 10,000 miles.
 > The Hindmost limited the flares to the rim wall so a spread of 10,000
 > miles for a flare is reasonable and may even be an overestimate.
 > A spread of 10,000 miles equates to a surface area of 100,000,000
 > square miles.
 > The area of the Ringworld is 6 x 10^14 square miles
 > Divide this by the area of spread of a flare and by 20 gives you a
 > figure for how many solar flares, in the plane of the Ringworld, are
 > needed to completely replace the solar wind.
 > I make it 300,000
 > I would hardly call that insignificant, in fact it looks like a solar
 > flare is the insignificant item instead.
 >

I find it interesting that Eric, James and JesusX have not made any kind
of comment to this message. Has the production of numbers been enough to
convince them that the uber-hurricane is a likely outcome? It seems likely
that they didn't want to admit they made a mistake on this one, especially
as it would mean that they would have to admit that I was right about
something. They would hate that, so they are giving me the silent
treatment in the hope that people will forget, however I will *never* let
that happen!


Stephen

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Stephen Forbes wrote:

 > I find it interesting that Eric, James and JesusX have not made any
 > kind
 > of comment to this message. Has the production of numbers been enough
 > to
 > convince them that the uber-hurricane is a likely outcome? It seems
 > likely
 > that they didn't want to admit they made a mistake on this one,
 > especially
 > as it would mean that they would have to admit that I was right about
 > something. They would hate that, so they are giving me the silent
 > treatment in the hope that people will forget, however I will *never*
 > let
 > that happen!

It's because your "production of numbers" is totally immaterial to what
anyone's been saying. Who cares what the total flux is, what counts is
what the areic flux density is. And by definition, that's exactly the
same for the Ringworld as it is for the Earth.

Yes, the Ringworld is bigger and so captures more particles. But it
doesn't capture any more particles per unit area than the Earth does,
and since the heights of the atmospheres are the same in both cases,
that changes nothing.

Making up numbers and multiplying them together to say, "Wow, that's a
big number" doesn't really tell you anything here. When quantitative
calculations show you're wrong, you ignore them; when you're stuck in a
corner, you multiply random numbers together and demand praise.

--
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