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Next: Crown of Swords and Frigates
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External
Since: May 05, 2006
Posts: 4
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 8:13 pm
Post subject: Situation at end of At All Costs
Archived from groups: alt>books>david-weber (more info?)
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I posted this also in rec.arts.sf.written, didn't get a lot of traction
there...
Warning ... huge spoilers for Weber's "At All Costs".
....
....
I'm hoping someone can help me puzzle out the situation at the end
of the book. Here's what we know:
* The Havenite invasion was thwarted, and the fleet forced to
surrender to you-know-who.
* The manpower and ship loss ratio favors Haven anyway.
* Manticore industry was not harmed.
* If not for the latest super-missiles, Haven could roll over the
Alliance.
* Haven cannot fight a fleet armed with super missiles.
* The remainder of Manticore ships must stay in the capital
system, including all the super-missile ships.
* Levels of hatred between the sides has increased.
* Emily agrees to share White Haven with Honor. "That's mighty
bigamous of you, ma'am!"
* Treecats get smarter.
So ... where does that leave us?
Is Haven in a position to immediately take over the whole Star
Kingdom except for Manticore itself? Including Alizon, Grayson,
etc?
Why didn't Haven pop a couple of missiles off here and there to
blow up orbital manufacturing facilities? It's not like they didn't
bring a lot of ammo. I think they would have done better to have
the whole invasion fleet be a suicide squadron tasked to take out
the factories At All ... well, you know.
Is there any chance for peace talks? I'm starting to be reminded
of the wars that drained Byzantium and Persia to the point where
they could not resist the Arab expansion (of course, everything
reminds me of Byzantium and Persia, so I may be off here).
Is this where Manpower/Mesa make their move with a genetically
enhanced army of some kind? Not that that sort of thing will help
much in space navy battles, mind you.
Will Honor be cashiered for her chitchat with Havenite superspy Victor
Cachat?
Will the Andermani be concerned that their best navy units lent to
Manticore were useless? This might encourage them to make a
separate peace with Haven and concentrate on snapping up more
of Silesia while Manticore licks its wounds. Unless they fear
eventual Manty retaliation.
Have the Graysons fixed their little genetical problem and normal-
ized their XX/XY ratio? Or do they just like it that way?
Why are the Mesans so stupid? If they can control someone so
completely as to make him slay his friends, why are they bothering
with assassinations? Why not suborn trade negotiators and clean
up financially? The way they're going, they're building up a lot of
future payback. Heck, given their new ability to manipulate
people, they should give up on this silly slave-trade business and
become the new Bene Gesserit. (BTW, who are the Mesan's
*customers*? Everyone seems to have slavery, right?)
At this point, why would anyone want to stay in the Alliance at
all? Clearly the Manties have failed to offer any protection against
the Peeps, and the New Peep's only reason to attack the Allies
is that they're allied with Manticore. Everyone should be looking
at how well Erewhon is doing in the new situation.
Finally, isn't the main situation unchanged from the beginning of
the book? That is, Haven has a short window of opportunity to
Win It All? How ... frustrating.
All this leads to the main problem I had with the book. It simply
ends after the last big battle, without much resolution. I understand
that there may well be a sequel, but I had hoped for at least a
neater cut-off between books.
H-P |
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External
Since: May 05, 2006
Posts: 4
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 10:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Situation at end of At All Costs [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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>>Is Haven in a position to immediately take over the whole Star
>>Kingdom except for Manticore itself? Including Alizon, Grayson,
>>etc?
>
>Not really.
>
>Grayson is pretty tough.
>
>And the Peeps seem to have lost something like 50% or more of its entire
>fleet.
Well, this is where it gets really interesting... I mean, the Peeps
lost maybe half their fleet, but didn't Manticore also lose at least
half of their much smaller fleet? Haven doesn't know that Harrington
and her Apollo ships are surgically attached to the home system, but
they are... if Haven should guess this, and tries to pick up Grayson,
or Alizon, maybe they could carry through. About their only other
option is to wait for the undamaged Manty industry [1] to build up
enough ships to come and destroy them all.
Oh yeah, or that "peace" stuff.  Not sure Mr. Weber will let them
do that!
What is Haven's best move here?
H-P
[1] BTW, this is why I suggested the attack on Manticore should be
focused on the orbital industry. Suicide attack, hmm, my language was
too strong there, but consider that if the Havenites destroy the
factories, Manticore almost *has* to sue for peace immediately, right? |
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External
Since: Aug 13, 2003
Posts: 1477
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 1:52 am
Post subject: Re: Situation at end of At All Costs [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Hoi-Polloi" <terry_tn.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1146885211.584993.30250@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I posted this also in rec.arts.sf.written, didn't get a lot of traction
> there...
>
> Warning ... huge spoilers for Weber's "At All Costs".
>
> ...
>
> ...
>
> I'm hoping someone can help me puzzle out the situation at the end
> of the book. Here's what we know:
>
> * The Havenite invasion was thwarted, and the fleet forced to
> surrender to you-know-who.
> * The manpower and ship loss ratio favors Haven anyway.
> * Manticore industry was not harmed.
> * If not for the latest super-missiles, Haven could roll over the
> Alliance.
> * Haven cannot fight a fleet armed with super missiles.
> * The remainder of Manticore ships must stay in the capital
> system, including all the super-missile ships.
> * Levels of hatred between the sides has increased.
> * Emily agrees to share White Haven with Honor. "That's mighty
> bigamous of you, ma'am!"
> * Treecats get smarter.
>
> So ... where does that leave us?
>
> Is Haven in a position to immediately take over the whole Star
> Kingdom except for Manticore itself? Including Alizon, Grayson,
> etc?
>
> Why didn't Haven pop a couple of missiles off here and there to
> blow up orbital manufacturing facilities? It's not like they didn't
> bring a lot of ammo. I think they would have done better to have
> the whole invasion fleet be a suicide squadron tasked to take out
> the factories At All ... well, you know.
>
> Is there any chance for peace talks? I'm starting to be reminded
> of the wars that drained Byzantium and Persia to the point where
> they could not resist the Arab expansion (of course, everything
> reminds me of Byzantium and Persia, so I may be off here).
>
> Is this where Manpower/Mesa make their move with a genetically
> enhanced army of some kind? Not that that sort of thing will help
> much in space navy battles, mind you.
They have something in mind but I strongly doubt if that's it.
>
> Will Honor be cashiered for her chitchat with Havenite superspy Victor
> Cachat?
She's next to God.
>
> Will the Andermani be concerned that their best navy units lent to
> Manticore were useless? This might encourage them to make a
> separate peace with Haven and concentrate on snapping up more
> of Silesia while Manticore licks its wounds. Unless they fear
> eventual Manty retaliation.
>
They're getting the new super tech that just took out the Haven fleet and
they don't like Haven or at least their ruler doesn't.
> Have the Graysons fixed their little genetical problem and normal-
> ized their XX/XY ratio? Or do they just like it that way?
>
Has everybody had their genes fixed? I doubt it.
> Why are the Mesans so stupid?
DW like stupid villians?
>If they can control someone so
> completely as to make him slay his friends, why are they bothering
> with assassinations?
Nobody in the HH universe can even make a smart comupter. Under the
circumstances what are the odds these people can even carry on a
conversation after being taken over by nano machines? Okay maybe they could
but not a single computer seems able to take voice commands. Computer tech
is astondingly crude.
>Why not suborn trade negotiators and clean
> up financially? The way they're going, they're building up a lot of
> future payback. Heck, given their new ability to manipulate
> people, they should give up on this silly slave-trade business and
> become the new Bene Gesserit. (BTW, who are the Mesan's
> *customers*? Everyone seems to have slavery, right?)
Make a list of place DW said its legal. It doesn't seem to be legal most
places. Sex slaves seem to be major money maker.
Control yes but in a very limited and attention getting way. People taken
over do not act like themselves and I'm not sure they talk. The point is to
take over someone who can get near a victim then have them act and die or
even to cause a person to kill themselves.
>
> At this point, why would anyone want to stay in the Alliance at
> all? Clearly the Manties have failed to offer any protection against
> the Peeps, and the New Peep's only reason to attack the Allies
> is that they're allied with Manticore. Everyone should be looking
> at how well Erewhon is doing in the new situation.
The Andies are doing great. Grayson is doing okay. The main Peep navy got
trashed and their best warships are defenseless before their enemies. Their
only defense is that Manticore is still short of ships.
>
> Finally, isn't the main situation unchanged from the beginning of
> the book? That is, Haven has a short window of opportunity to
> Win It All? How ... frustrating.
Unless Haven comes up with something new it has no window to win the war.
That ship sailed.
>
> All this leads to the main problem I had with the book. It simply
> ends after the last big battle, without much resolution. I understand
> that there may well be a sequel, but I had hoped for at least a
> neater cut-off between books.
>
> H-P
>
Actually the first time I read it I wanted to spew at the pointlessness of
it. I no longer consider one side to be the good guys and the other the bad
guys. He broke a major rule of space opera. Maybe DW wants to convince
everybody that war is bad. >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs |
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External
Since: May 06, 2006
Posts: 31
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 9:35 am
Post subject: Re: Situation at end of At All Costs [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"deowll" <deowll.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:uIX6g.18214$QU3.11958@bignews8.bellsouth.net:
> Actually the first time I read it I wanted to spew at the
> pointlessness of it. I no longer consider one side to be the good guys
> and the other the bad guys. He broke a major rule of space opera.
> Maybe DW wants to convince everybody that war is bad.
>
I hope his goal was to make Elizabeth Winton less likable - because
I ended the book feeling that she had thrown away a truly huge
number of lives in her quest for vengeance for her father's and
Cromarty's deaths. She so dragged most of her advisors into her
anger that they totally neglected to point out just how stupid it is
to show new hardware along the lines of Apollo before you have it
deployed in sufficient numbers to be effective.* Time is such a
precious commodity at that time that she should have used the
assasination attempts to buy more of it, not throw away what she had.
* Anyone here play SEIV? Have you ever developed a sudden, decisive
tech edge, and then done anything you could to buy the necessary time
and resources to put a fleet into motion using them? You don't raid
your buddy's secondary systems with it and alert him that he has to move
now or lose - you build up an expeditionary force capable of moving
on his home/core planets - and win the war. >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs |
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External
Since: Aug 25, 2004
Posts: 583
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 10:27 am
Post subject: Re: Situation at end of At All Costs [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Hoi-Polloi wrote:
> So ... where does that leave us?
>
> Is Haven in a position to immediately take over the whole Star
> Kingdom except for Manticore itself? Including Alizon, Grayson,
> etc?
Grayson still has an impressive fleet of it's own, which rivals (if it
isn't bigger than) Manticore's own forces. They weren't involved in the
Battle of Manticore due to the relatively long distance they would have
had to travel to enter the fray. Their forces include the Protector's
Own, an independently operating fleet that has the capability for
long-endurance expeditions where it could no doubt cause all sorts of
trouble on it's own if it wanted to. Add to this, Grayson is considered
something of a black hole for Havenite forces, and they tend not to
bother with it much anymore.
> Why didn't Haven pop a couple of missiles off here and there to
> blow up orbital manufacturing facilities? It's not like they didn't
> bring a lot of ammo. I think they would have done better to have
> the whole invasion fleet be a suicide squadron tasked to take out
> the factories At All ... well, you know.
The new Republic of Haven doesn't launch disposable suicide forces
anymore, that was a Committee of Public Safety kind of tactic, so this
sort of move would be anathema to their battle doctrine. Plus, the only
orbital facilities in range of the Peep forces were between them and
Sphinx, IIRC, and the last thing the Peeps wanted was to enact the
Eridani Edict if a missile missed and nailed Sphinx (even if it didn't
bring in the Sollies, it could have been seen as a post-diaspora Bombing
of London, encouraging the Manties to launch their own planetary
bombardments)
> Will Honor be cashiered for her chitchat with Havenite superspy Victor
> Cachat?
Why would she? That chit-chat Never Happened(TM), dontchaknow.
> Will the Andermani be concerned that their best navy units lent to
> Manticore were useless? This might encourage them to make a
> separate peace with Haven and concentrate on snapping up more
> of Silesia while Manticore licks its wounds. Unless they fear
> eventual Manty retaliation.
The Andermani strike me as the sort to hold a grudge. After losing a
significant number of their ships to the Havenites at Manticore, they'd
likely be out for blood now, wanting to return the favor.
>
> At this point, why would anyone want to stay in the Alliance at
> all? Clearly the Manties have failed to offer any protection against
> the Peeps, and the New Peep's only reason to attack the Allies
> is that they're allied with Manticore. Everyone should be looking
> at how well Erewhon is doing in the new situation.
IIRC, the Mantie government as of AOC is seriously considering asking
the weaker allies to sign non-agression pacts with Haven, since trying
to defend them is stretching Mantie forces, and their usefulness as
fleet bases is significantly diminished with Trevor's Star back in
Mantie hands.
> Finally, isn't the main situation unchanged from the beginning of
> the book? That is, Haven has a short window of opportunity to
> Win It All? How ... frustrating.
Well, now the Havenites are still ahead in the numbers game, but have
lost a massive number of ships and personnel, including some of their
most experienced officers. They may very well be in shock from that for
a time. The Manties, meanwhile, have lost two of their primary fleets,
and their main offensive fleet will now be politically required to stay
in the home system until the defensive forces can be replaced. The war
will now likely see a period of relative calm while both sides regroup
(hopefully a long enough calm for The Inquisitor and The Full Nelson to
dig something up)
> All this leads to the main problem I had with the book. It simply
> ends after the last big battle, without much resolution. I understand
> that there may well be a sequel, but I had hoped for at least a
> neater cut-off between books.
>
> H-P
Well, the end of the book, I imagine, was probably intended to be rather
jarring. Plus, it still had more resolution than In Enemy Hands, which
ended with Honor badly injured and stuck on Hell with her officers.
--
--Jeffrey MacHott
"Sola bona lingua est mortua lingua" >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs |
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Since: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 368
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 11:15 am
Post subject: Re: Situation at end of At All Costs [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 5 May 2006 20:13:31 -0700, "Hoi-Polloi" <terry_tn.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Is Haven in a position to immediately take over the whole Star
>Kingdom except for Manticore itself? Including Alizon, Grayson,
>etc?
No. They don't know where the new ships are deployed. Haven also
doesn't have much firepower left, they committed just about all of
their combat-ready force to Beatrice.
>Why didn't Haven pop a couple of missiles off here and there to
>blow up orbital manufacturing facilities? It's not like they didn't
>bring a lot of ammo. I think they would have done better to have
>the whole invasion fleet be a suicide squadron tasked to take out
>the factories At All ... well, you know.
The problem is the orbital facilities are orbital. That is, very
close to the planet. A slight malfunction of a missile and the planet
get clobbered. Eridani time. Some time ago we worked out the impact
energies. I don't recall the burnout speed of a Havenite missile, we
were working with Ghost Rider numbers--and got something like 10% of
the energy of the dinosaur killer. You can actually increase the
damage by setting off the warhead a bit before impact.
That's why nobody takes long range shots at orbital factories.
>Is there any chance for peace talks? I'm starting to be reminded
>of the wars that drained Byzantium and Persia to the point where
>they could not resist the Arab expansion (of course, everything
>reminds me of Byzantium and Persia, so I may be off here).
I think Manticore will soon be in a position to impose peace.
>Is this where Manpower/Mesa make their move with a genetically
>enhanced army of some kind? Not that that sort of thing will help
>much in space navy battles, mind you.
There's no point in a genetically enhanced army.
>Will Honor be cashiered for her chitchat with Havenite superspy Victor
>Cachat?
Why should she be? She was acting in Manticore's interest.
>Will the Andermani be concerned that their best navy units lent to
>Manticore were useless? This might encourage them to make a
>separate peace with Haven and concentrate on snapping up more
>of Silesia while Manticore licks its wounds. Unless they fear
>eventual Manty retaliation.
The Andermani have ships being refit to Apollo. *EVERYONE'S* old
ships are now all but worthless, the same as what happened with the
introduction of the Ghost Rider missiles.
>Have the Graysons fixed their little genetical problem and normal-
>ized their XX/XY ratio? Or do they just like it that way?
Give it time.
>Why are the Mesans so stupid? If they can control someone so
>completely as to make him slay his friends, why are they bothering
>with assassinations? Why not suborn trade negotiators and clean
>up financially? The way they're going, they're building up a lot of
>future payback. Heck, given their new ability to manipulate
>people, they should give up on this silly slave-trade business and
>become the new Bene Gesserit. (BTW, who are the Mesan's
>*customers*? Everyone seems to have slavery, right?)
They can control someone completely to do a short pre-programmed
action. That's a very different thing than making a trade negotiator
negotiate a bad deal.
>Finally, isn't the main situation unchanged from the beginning of
>the book? That is, Haven has a short window of opportunity to
>Win It All? How ... frustrating.
Not at all. Haven has no such opportunity. Unless they can pull a
rabbit from a hat they are doomed. Apollo is to MDM's as MDM's were
to the original missiles.
>All this leads to the main problem I had with the book. It simply
>ends after the last big battle, without much resolution. I understand
>that there may well be a sequel, but I had hoped for at least a
>neater cut-off between books.
There's really only two cases:
1) Haven pulls a rabbit out--something worthy of a book in it's own
right, or
2) Haven loses. I think this leads to a comparison of information
and Manticore goes after Mesa. >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs |
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Since: Aug 26, 2003
Posts: 392
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 11:53 am
Post subject: Re: Situation at end of At All Costs [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
<fburton.DeleteThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote on Fri, 5 May 2006 23:49:06 -0400 in
alt.books.david-weber :
>
>>
>>Why didn't Haven pop a couple of missiles off here and there to
>>blow up orbital manufacturing facilities? It's not like they didn't
>>bring a lot of ammo. I think they would have done better to have
>>the whole invasion fleet be a suicide squadron tasked to take out
>>the factories At All ... well, you know.
>
>The Eradani Edict.
>
>You don't want to blindly fire at anything near a planet, for fear that the
>misses will strike the planet.
This was such a concern that the orbital defenses around Sphinx were
ordered to fire only if fired upon, lest their fire draw return fire, and
one of those missiles miss the orbital target and hit the planet. "Great,
the EW worked, the missile lost lock on the fort, but then found a "bigger"
target, and just attacked the planet." Or just as bad, crashed - at
umpteen thousand kps. (Say, what effect would a capital missile's wedge
have on a planet?)
On the third hand, what are the tree cats on Sphinx making of the light
show?
tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
Typos, Grammos and da kind are the result of ragin hormones
Fortesque Consulting: Teaching Pigs to Sing since 1968. >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs |
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Since: Aug 26, 2003
Posts: 392
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 11:53 am
Post subject: Re: Situation at end of At All Costs [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
<fburton.RemoveThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote on Fri, 5 May 2006 23:49:06 -0400 in
alt.books.david-weber :
>
>>Will the Andermani be concerned that their best navy units lent to
>>Manticore were useless? This might encourage them to make a
>>separate peace with Haven and concentrate on snapping up more
>>of Silesia while Manticore licks its wounds. Unless they fear
>>eventual Manty retaliation.
>
>They weren't useless.
>
>A rather large chunk of HH's 8th Fleet was Apollo-armed Andermani SD(P)'s.
OTOH, the Andermani don't have the experience (recently) of having an
engagement result in ship lost lists taking up paragraphs, and casualty
lists running for pages.
To quote O'hura in "Star Drek" "We done took a shellacking!"
>
--
pyotr filipivich
Typos, Grammos and da kind are the result of ragin hormones
Fortesque Consulting: Teaching Pigs to Sing since 1968. >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs |
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Since: Aug 25, 2004
Posts: 583
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 11:53 am
Post subject: Re: Situation at end of At All Costs [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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pyotr filipivich wrote:
> On the third hand, what are the tree cats on Sphinx making of the light
> show?
>
>
> tschus
> pyotr
>
They're most likely aware that it was a very large battle between the
human forces. They've known of the severity of the war (and the risk
their own lives are in) since Changer of Worlds, when Samantha convinced
them to begin colonizing other worlds so as to avoid losing their entire
population in a battle similar to this (Harrington Steading on Grayson
being the first site of a Treecat colony). They know the Havenites
aren't bad, but they also know that the highly destructive and random
nature of the weapons used by both sides could have unintended tragic
effects.
--
--Jeffrey MacHott
"Sola bona lingua est mortua lingua" >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs |
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Since: Aug 26, 2003
Posts: 392
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 11:58 am
Post subject: Re: Situation at end of At All Costs [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "deowll" <deowll DeleteThis @bellsouth.net>
wrote on Sat, 6 May 2006 01:52:19 -0500 in alt.books.david-weber :
>
>> Why are the Mesans so stupid?
>
>DW like stupid villians?
Mesa is composed of factions, all of which just know that if only that
other bunch of incompetents would get out of the way, We could solve all
our problems.
And while you and I (the readers) may consider them stupid, they are
quite clever. For one thing, they have managed to prevent two star nations
which seriously oppose their business plan, from making peace, with the
accompanying freeing of resources to meddle in Manpower's business.
--
pyotr filipivich
Typos, Grammos and da kind are the result of ragin hormones
Fortesque Consulting: Teaching Pigs to Sing since 1968. >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs |
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External
Since: Apr 26, 2006
Posts: 33
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 3:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Situation at end of At All Costs [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sat, 06 May 2006 09:35:44 -0500, Sean Kennedy
<therealorang.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote:
>"deowll" <deowll.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in
>news:uIX6g.18214$QU3.11958@bignews8.bellsouth.net:
>
>> Actually the first time I read it I wanted to spew at the
>> pointlessness of it. I no longer consider one side to be the good guys
>> and the other the bad guys. He broke a major rule of space opera.
>> Maybe DW wants to convince everybody that war is bad.
Just remember that WW1 was probably due to German train schedules.
I sometimes think that Haven is like the old Soviet Union. Think
about how some of the old Cold Warriors talk about Vladimir Putin.
One thing about aristocratic societies. Think of the five mafia
families in New York. The boss says go to the matresses....
Bear in mind to both Pritchart and Queen Elizabeth have been
manipulated into war. Plus it did not help that Pritchart did the
initial strike.
As well, Victor Cachat now has a backdoor communications channel.
I think those people that think the Queen and the President have been
misled are now using Berry and Torch to draw the two nation into
peaceful negotiations.
>I hope his goal was to make Elizabeth Winton less likable - because
>I ended the book feeling that she had thrown away a truly huge
>number of lives in her quest for vengeance for her father's and
>Cromarty's deaths. She so dragged most of her advisors into her
>anger that they totally neglected to point out just how stupid it is
>to show new hardware along the lines of Apollo before you have it
>deployed in sufficient numbers to be effective.* Time is such a
>precious commodity at that time that she should have used the
>assasination attempts to buy more of it, not throw away what she had.
>
>* Anyone here play SEIV? Have you ever developed a sudden, decisive
>tech edge, and then done anything you could to buy the necessary time
>and resources to put a fleet into motion using them? You don't raid
>your buddy's secondary systems with it and alert him that he has to move
>now or lose - you build up an expeditionary force capable of moving
>on his home/core planets - and win the war.
One other thing, I have a hunch where this is going. The Star
Kingdom, Haven and their allies vs the Sollies.
pops >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs |
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 10:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Situation at end of At All Costs [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"pyotr filipivich" <phamp.RemoveThis@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:sv2p52pb7ebq3kcrr7olrkm8clts6jc6rn@4ax.com...
> Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
> <fburton.RemoveThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote on Fri, 5 May 2006 23:49:06 -0400 in
> alt.books.david-weber :
>>
>>>
>>>Why didn't Haven pop a couple of missiles off here and there to
>>>blow up orbital manufacturing facilities? It's not like they didn't
>>>bring a lot of ammo. I think they would have done better to have
>>>the whole invasion fleet be a suicide squadron tasked to take out
>>>the factories At All ... well, you know.
>>
>>The Eradani Edict.
>>
>>You don't want to blindly fire at anything near a planet, for fear that
>>the
>>misses will strike the planet.
>
> This was such a concern that the orbital defenses around Sphinx were
> ordered to fire only if fired upon, lest their fire draw return fire, and
> one of those missiles miss the orbital target and hit the planet. "Great,
> the EW worked, the missile lost lock on the fort, but then found a
> "bigger"
> target, and just attacked the planet." Or just as bad, crashed - at
> umpteen thousand kps. (Say, what effect would a capital missile's wedge
> have on a planet?)
It would be very bad. However the pressures that resulted would be so great
that the exact nature of what happened would most likely not be like what
happens when a big rock hits at vastly lower speeds. The nose shield would
have to give and the pressures created when the wedge hit air would be
astronomical in the numbers generated. The same applies to missile and air.
I think there would be nuclear reactions. I tend to think in terms of a
blast well above ground with a pressure wave and a lot of hard radiation.
The actual energy release wouldn't even take nano seconds. I don't think
you'd get a clearly defined impact crater though it might make some kind of
very broad and poorly defined depression. Everything within line of sight of
the blast would be killed. The actually amount of damage done a hundred
miles or so beyond that point is much less clear to me. Others can go where
they want.
>
>
> On the third hand, what are the tree cats on Sphinx making of the light
> show?
>
>
> tschus
> pyotr
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> pyotr filipivich
> Typos, Grammos and da kind are the result of ragin hormones
> Fortesque Consulting: Teaching Pigs to Sing since 1968. >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs |
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 10:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Situation at end of At All Costs [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"pyotr filipivich" <phamp DeleteThis @mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3a3p52h49nsgluca0fhbkgjhkt3t5quvac@4ax.com...
> Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
> <fburton DeleteThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote on Fri, 5 May 2006 23:49:06 -0400 in
> alt.books.david-weber :
>>
>>>Will the Andermani be concerned that their best navy units lent to
>>>Manticore were useless? This might encourage them to make a
>>>separate peace with Haven and concentrate on snapping up more
>>>of Silesia while Manticore licks its wounds. Unless they fear
>>>eventual Manty retaliation.
>>
>>They weren't useless.
>>
>>A rather large chunk of HH's 8th Fleet was Apollo-armed Andermani SD(P)'s.
>
> OTOH, the Andermani don't have the experience (recently) of having an
> engagement result in ship lost lists taking up paragraphs, and casualty
> lists running for pages.
> To quote O'hura in "Star Drek" "We done took a shellacking!"
>>
True but they also dished one out. They know they have a huge tech edge and
they are going to be much more afraid of the Republic now than they were
before. They know their old navy couldn't have prevented the Repbulican
forces from taking them over. With Manticore help they have reason to think
they can.
>
> --
> pyotr filipivich
> Typos, Grammos and da kind are the result of ragin hormones
> Fortesque Consulting: Teaching Pigs to Sing since 1968. >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs |
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 10:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Situation at end of At All Costs [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"pyotr filipivich" <phamp.RemoveThis@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:uh3p52hgcbqngt19nbhcfne4ccndv4nudp@4ax.com...
> Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "deowll" <deowll.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net>
> wrote on Sat, 6 May 2006 01:52:19 -0500 in alt.books.david-weber :
>>
>>> Why are the Mesans so stupid?
>>
>>DW like stupid villians?
>
> Mesa is composed of factions, all of which just know that if only that
> other bunch of incompetents would get out of the way, We could solve all
> our problems.
> And while you and I (the readers) may consider them stupid, they are
> quite clever. For one thing, they have managed to prevent two star
> nations
> which seriously oppose their business plan, from making peace, with the
> accompanying freeing of resources to meddle in Manpower's business.
It was a tongue in cheek answer to the question. While the nasty games they
played in the past may have served their purposes well and they think the
day is approaching for their take over the groups they are messing with did
not at one time have the muscle to terminate them and they now do. They're
juggling nitro and I haven't seen much that convinces me they really
understand the risks they're running. They have an invincibility syndrome
and they absolutely do not have the military muscle to make that sane.
>
> --
> pyotr filipivich
> Typos, Grammos and da kind are the result of ragin hormones
> Fortesque Consulting: Teaching Pigs to Sing since 1968. >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs |
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 10:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Situation at end of At All Costs [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Jeffrey MacHott" <Raguleader.DeleteThis@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:Cf37g.2373$AB3.1406@fed1read02...
> Hoi-Polloi wrote:
>
>> So ... where does that leave us?
>>
>> Is Haven in a position to immediately take over the whole Star
>> Kingdom except for Manticore itself? Including Alizon, Grayson,
>> etc?
>
> Grayson still has an impressive fleet of it's own, which rivals (if it
> isn't bigger than) Manticore's own forces. They weren't involved in the
> Battle of Manticore due to the relatively long distance they would have
> had to travel to enter the fray. Their forces include the Protector's
> Own, an independently operating fleet that has the capability for
> long-endurance expeditions where it could no doubt cause all sorts of
> trouble on it's own if it wanted to. Add to this, Grayson is considered
> something of a black hole for Havenite forces, and they tend not to bother
> with it much anymore.
>
>> Why didn't Haven pop a couple of missiles off here and there to
>> blow up orbital manufacturing facilities? It's not like they didn't
>> bring a lot of ammo. I think they would have done better to have
>> the whole invasion fleet be a suicide squadron tasked to take out
>> the factories At All ... well, you know.
>
> The new Republic of Haven doesn't launch disposable suicide forces
> anymore, that was a Committee of Public Safety kind of tactic, so this
> sort of move would be anathema to their battle doctrine. Plus, the only
> orbital facilities in range of the Peep forces were between them and
> Sphinx, IIRC, and the last thing the Peeps wanted was to enact the Eridani
> Edict if a missile missed and nailed Sphinx (even if it didn't bring in
> the Sollies, it could have been seen as a post-diaspora Bombing of London,
> encouraging the Manties to launch their own planetary bombardments)
>
>> Will Honor be cashiered for her chitchat with Havenite superspy Victor
>> Cachat?
>
> Why would she? That chit-chat Never Happened(TM), dontchaknow.
>
>> Will the Andermani be concerned that their best navy units lent to
>> Manticore were useless? This might encourage them to make a
>> separate peace with Haven and concentrate on snapping up more
>> of Silesia while Manticore licks its wounds. Unless they fear
>> eventual Manty retaliation.
>
> The Andermani strike me as the sort to hold a grudge. After losing a
> significant number of their ships to the Havenites at Manticore, they'd
> likely be out for blood now, wanting to return the favor.
Blood debt. A good old fashioned fued.
>
>>
>> At this point, why would anyone want to stay in the Alliance at
>> all? Clearly the Manties have failed to offer any protection against
>> the Peeps, and the New Peep's only reason to attack the Allies
>> is that they're allied with Manticore. Everyone should be looking
>> at how well Erewhon is doing in the new situation.
>
> IIRC, the Mantie government as of AOC is seriously considering asking the
> weaker allies to sign non-agression pacts with Haven, since trying to
> defend them is stretching Mantie forces, and their usefulness as fleet
> bases is significantly diminished with Trevor's Star back in Mantie hands.
>
>> Finally, isn't the main situation unchanged from the beginning of
>> the book? That is, Haven has a short window of opportunity to
>> Win It All? How ... frustrating.
>
> Well, now the Havenites are still ahead in the numbers game, but have lost
> a massive number of ships and personnel, including some of their most
> experienced officers. They may very well be in shock from that for a
> time. The Manties, meanwhile, have lost two of their primary fleets, and
> their main offensive fleet will now be politically required to stay in the
> home system until the defensive forces can be replaced. The war will now
> likely see a period of relative calm while both sides regroup (hopefully a
> long enough calm for The Inquisitor and The Full Nelson to dig something
> up)
>
>> All this leads to the main problem I had with the book. It simply
>> ends after the last big battle, without much resolution. I understand
>> that there may well be a sequel, but I had hoped for at least a
>> neater cut-off between books.
>>
>> H-P
>
> Well, the end of the book, I imagine, was probably intended to be rather
> jarring. Plus, it still had more resolution than In Enemy Hands, which
> ended with Honor badly injured and stuck on Hell with her officers.
The b moving serial cliff hanger. Come back next week and see how things
work out.
>
> --
> --Jeffrey MacHott
>
> "Sola bona lingua est mortua lingua" >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs |
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