Situation at end of At All Costs

"Papatom" <thomasb.RemoveThis@uvic.ca> wrote in message
news:oehp52pfkhc0aurrbl62pf7s01jfsbuhfj@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 06 May 2006 09:35:44 -0500, Sean Kennedy
> <therealorang.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>"deowll" <deowll.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in
>>news:uIX6g.18214$QU3.11958@bignews8.bellsouth.net:
>>
>>> Actually the first time I read it I wanted to spew at the
>>> pointlessness of it. I no longer consider one side to be the good guys
>>> and the other the bad guys. He broke a major rule of space opera.
>>> Maybe DW wants to convince everybody that war is bad.
>
>
>
> Just remember that WW1 was probably due to German train schedules.
>
> I sometimes think that Haven is like the old Soviet Union. Think
> about how some of the old Cold Warriors talk about Vladimir Putin.
> One thing about aristocratic societies. Think of the five mafia
> families in New York. The boss says go to the matresses....
>
> Bear in mind to both Pritchart and Queen Elizabeth have been
> manipulated into war. Plus it did not help that Pritchart did the
> initial strike.
>
> As well, Victor Cachat now has a backdoor communications channel.
> I think those people that think the Queen and the President have been
> misled are now using Berry and Torch to draw the two nation into
> peaceful negotiations.
>
>>I hope his goal was to make Elizabeth Winton less likable - because
>>I ended the book feeling that she had thrown away a truly huge
>>number of lives in her quest for vengeance for her father's and
>>Cromarty's deaths. She so dragged most of her advisors into her
>>anger that they totally neglected to point out just how stupid it is
>>to show new hardware along the lines of Apollo before you have it
>>deployed in sufficient numbers to be effective.* Time is such a
>>precious commodity at that time that she should have used the
>>assasination attempts to buy more of it, not throw away what she had.
>>
>>* Anyone here play SEIV? Have you ever developed a sudden, decisive
>>tech edge, and then done anything you could to buy the necessary time
>>and resources to put a fleet into motion using them? You don't raid
>>your buddy's secondary systems with it and alert him that he has to move
>>now or lose - you build up an expeditionary force capable of moving
>>on his home/core planets - and win the war.
>
> One other thing, I have a hunch where this is going. The Star
> Kingdom, Haven and their allies vs the Sollies.
>
> pops

As I noted a lot of people seem to be hoping for this including me and DW
did do a lot of forshadowing but then he likes to do that then surprise you.

"Loren Pechtel" <lorenpechtel.RemoveThis@hotmail.invalid.com> wrote in message
news:c0ip52haua634grqluhn27dra68i3c74pv@4ax.com...
> On 5 May 2006 20:13:31 -0700, "Hoi-Polloi" <terry_tn.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Is Haven in a position to immediately take over the whole Star
>>Kingdom except for Manticore itself? Including Alizon, Grayson,
>>etc?
>
> No. They don't know where the new ships are deployed. Haven also
> doesn't have much firepower left, they committed just about all of
> their combat-ready force to Beatrice.
>
>>Why didn't Haven pop a couple of missiles off here and there to
>>blow up orbital manufacturing facilities? It's not like they didn't
>>bring a lot of ammo. I think they would have done better to have
>>the whole invasion fleet be a suicide squadron tasked to take out
>>the factories At All ... well, you know.
>
> The problem is the orbital facilities are orbital. That is, very
> close to the planet. A slight malfunction of a missile and the planet
> get clobbered. Eridani time. Some time ago we worked out the impact
> energies. I don't recall the burnout speed of a Havenite missile, we
> were working with Ghost Rider numbers--and got something like 10% of
> the energy of the dinosaur killer. You can actually increase the
> damage by setting off the warhead a bit before impact.
>
> That's why nobody takes long range shots at orbital factories.

Depends on what they are in orbit around and how far they are out. A hundred
miles up from an inhabited planet would not be a good move. Around a star is
not a problem.

>
>>Is there any chance for peace talks? I'm starting to be reminded
>>of the wars that drained Byzantium and Persia to the point where
>>they could not resist the Arab expansion (of course, everything
>>reminds me of Byzantium and Persia, so I may be off here).
>
> I think Manticore will soon be in a position to impose peace.

To be fair that depends on DW. Imposing peace is only going to lead to round
three.

>
>>Is this where Manpower/Mesa make their move with a genetically
>>enhanced army of some kind? Not that that sort of thing will help
>>much in space navy battles, mind you.
>
> There's no point in a genetically enhanced army.

We have a lot of examples of genetically enhanced combat forces in DWs
books. Many of them are very effective. I might go easy on that but they
don't win Naval clashes except for HH.

>
>>Will Honor be cashiered for her chitchat with Havenite superspy Victor
>>Cachat?
>
> Why should she be? She was acting in Manticore's interest.
>
>>Will the Andermani be concerned that their best navy units lent to
>>Manticore were useless? This might encourage them to make a
>>separate peace with Haven and concentrate on snapping up more
>>of Silesia while Manticore licks its wounds. Unless they fear
>>eventual Manty retaliation.
>
> The Andermani have ships being refit to Apollo. *EVERYONE'S* old
> ships are now all but worthless, the same as what happened with the
> introduction of the Ghost Rider missiles.
>
>>Have the Graysons fixed their little genetical problem and normal-
>>ized their XX/XY ratio? Or do they just like it that way?
>
> Give it time.
>
>>Why are the Mesans so stupid? If they can control someone so
>>completely as to make him slay his friends, why are they bothering
>>with assassinations? Why not suborn trade negotiators and clean
>>up financially? The way they're going, they're building up a lot of
>>future payback. Heck, given their new ability to manipulate
>>people, they should give up on this silly slave-trade business and
>>become the new Bene Gesserit. (BTW, who are the Mesan's
>>*customers*? Everyone seems to have slavery, right?)
>
> They can control someone completely to do a short pre-programmed
> action. That's a very different thing than making a trade negotiator
> negotiate a bad deal.
>
>>Finally, isn't the main situation unchanged from the beginning of
>>the book? That is, Haven has a short window of opportunity to
>>Win It All? How ... frustrating.
>
> Not at all. Haven has no such opportunity. Unless they can pull a
> rabbit from a hat they are doomed. Apollo is to MDM's as MDM's were
> to the original missiles.
>
>>All this leads to the main problem I had with the book. It simply
>>ends after the last big battle, without much resolution. I understand
>>that there may well be a sequel, but I had hoped for at least a
>>neater cut-off between books.
>
> There's really only two cases:
>
> 1) Haven pulls a rabbit out--something worthy of a book in it's own
> right, or
>
> 2) Haven loses. I think this leads to a comparison of information
> and Manticore goes after Mesa.

Actually that's the problem. They may be helpless militarily (up to DW) but
unless you want a military take over all you've done is set things up for
another round after they rebuild. You haven't done anything that would end
the basic conflict and an imposed peace is not going to make people love
you.