Situation at end of At All Costs

"Fred Burton" <fburton RemoveThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
news:e3l45l$1vis$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>
> deowll wrote in message ...
>>
>>"Loren Pechtel" <lorenpechtel RemoveThis @hotmail.invalid.com> wrote in message
>>news:c0ip52haua634grqluhn27dra68i3c74pv@4ax.com...
>>> On 5 May 2006 20:13:31 -0700, "Hoi-Polloi" <terry_tn RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Is Haven in a position to immediately take over the whole Star
>>>>Kingdom except for Manticore itself? Including Alizon, Grayson,
>>>>etc?
>>>
>>> No. They don't know where the new ships are deployed. Haven also
>>> doesn't have much firepower left, they committed just about all of
>>> their combat-ready force to Beatrice.
>>>
>>>>Why didn't Haven pop a couple of missiles off here and there to
>>>>blow up orbital manufacturing facilities? It's not like they didn't
>>>>bring a lot of ammo. I think they would have done better to have
>>>>the whole invasion fleet be a suicide squadron tasked to take out
>>>>the factories At All ... well, you know.
>>>
>>> The problem is the orbital facilities are orbital. That is, very
>>> close to the planet. A slight malfunction of a missile and the planet
>>> get clobbered. Eridani time. Some time ago we worked out the impact
>>> energies. I don't recall the burnout speed of a Havenite missile, we
>>> were working with Ghost Rider numbers--and got something like 10% of
>>> the energy of the dinosaur killer. You can actually increase the
>>> damage by setting off the warhead a bit before impact.
>>>
>>> That's why nobody takes long range shots at orbital factories.
>>
>>Depends on what they are in orbit around and how far they are out. A
> hundred
>>miles up from an inhabited planet would not be a good move. Around a star
> is
>>not a problem.
>>
>>>
>>>>Is there any chance for peace talks? I'm starting to be reminded
>>>>of the wars that drained Byzantium and Persia to the point where
>>>>they could not resist the Arab expansion (of course, everything
>>>>reminds me of Byzantium and Persia, so I may be off here).
>>>
>>> I think Manticore will soon be in a position to impose peace.
>>
>>To be fair that depends on DW. Imposing peace is only going to lead to
> round
>>three.
>
> I don't see Elizabeth settling for merely calling a truce jusdt to simply
> end the fighting. I think that QE wants to have a final resolution to
> this
> Manticore-Haven conflict, not just an end to the war for the sake of
> ending
> the war. That said, a final resolution could either be with the RMN
> wiping
> out the Peeps in the Haven system and a traditional unconditional
> surrender.
> or perhaps, Cachat and Zilwicki return with the proof that the Mesans have
> been playing the Manties and Peeps like pawns, and Elizabeth and Pritchard
> decide to meet and finally bury the hachet (and not in each other), then
> turn on Mesa.
>
>
>
>

Sounds just like what the French and British said at the end of WW I when
they laid the foundation for WW II.
 >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs 

"Loren Pechtel" <lorenpechtel.DeleteThis@hotmail.invalid.com> wrote in message
news:46as52hfvjs8lbon4t7oc9jma54vros1ku@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 6 May 2006 22:37:21 -0500, "deowll" <deowll.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
>>It would be very bad. However the pressures that resulted would be so
>>great
>>that the exact nature of what happened would most likely not be like what
>>happens when a big rock hits at vastly lower speeds. The nose shield would
>>have to give and the pressures created when the wedge hit air would be
>>astronomical in the numbers generated. The same applies to missile and
>>air.
>>I think there would be nuclear reactions. I tend to think in terms of a
>>blast well above ground with a pressure wave and a lot of hard radiation.
>>The actual energy release wouldn't even take nano seconds. I don't think
>>you'd get a clearly defined impact crater though it might make some kind
>>of
>>very broad and poorly defined depression. Everything within line of sight
>>of
>>the blast would be killed. The actually amount of damage done a hundred
>>miles or so beyond that point is much less clear to me. Others can go
>>where
>>they want.
>
> We worked some of this out a year or two ago.
>
> Ghost rider at burnout velocity = 10% of the dinosaur killer.

Which is more like a continent killer. It just isn't going to do damage in
exactly the same way which makes it harder to understand exactly what will
happen. I'd expect a blast of radiant energy including hard radiation with
much less of a clearly defined impact. Blah, to many words and not enough
hard science.
 >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs 

Loren Pechtel wrote in message
<7cas52913e54mr6d4e8n14bqtlk694hjuc.DeleteThis@4ax.com>...
>On Sun, 07 May 2006 15:22:59 GMT, forkliftramp.com
><Brian_knowspam.McDonald.DeleteThis@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>>it may be they think they can shelter under the umbrella of the
>>solarian navy and thumb their noses at the manti's and havenites.
>>could be they are so wrapped up in being clever they've forgotten that
>>a clever pest can be crushed through the application of brute force.
>>all sorts of in character reasons possible for their behaviour to date
>>even if the reasons are faulty.
>
>When the dust settles with Haven the Manticore fleet will be powerful
>enough to take on the Sollie fleet in straight-up combat. If Mesa
>tries to hide behind the Sollies (and the Sollies let them) then
>Manticore would probably head for Earth.

The problem with dealing with the Sollies is that the Solarian League is
just sooooo enormous. Yes, the Manties and their allies with the latest
tech developed by the Manties and the Peeps, could probably punch thru to
Earth pretty darned quick. The problem probably is that the SL's resources
and building capacity is probably so vast and diffuse that the loss of Earth
may not mean that much militarily. Also, while the SL battle fleet may not
be top of the line, compared to the Manties, their allies, or even the
Peeps, they have the resources and tech base to make up the difference
fairly quickly, if they could enther hold off the manties, et.al. or delay
such a conflict.

That said, one problem that the Sollies may have relative to making up the
difference is that lacking either examples of the technology or first hand
experience against it, they may be in a difficult position to duplicate it.
For example, do they even know about MDM's yet? How far behind are they?
Also, they don't have the advantages that the peeps have had. While the
Peeps may not have the Sollies underlying tech base, they've had a couple of
decades of combat experience against the best high tech weapons the Manties
could throw at them, and have lots of experience in trying to at least
develop counter technologies that are within their inferior tech base to
produce.

OTOH, the Sollies haven't exactly been under the same pressures to produce
technological wonders. The Manties have the pressure of knowing that their
tech edge over the Peeps is what allows them to survive while outnumbered.
And the Peeps know that for their survival, they have to constantly try to
catch up to the manties, plus develop lower tech counters to any new Manty
weapons. What pressures have been placed on the Sollies military R&D
establishment? It just can't be anything to match the pressures the Manties
and Peeps, et.al. have been living and producing under.



I'm not really sure that the Manties could really take out the entire
Solarian league, no matter how much better the RMN's ships are. The SLN
would probably be able to use their vast resources to delay, delay, delay.
Hell, even with the combined resources of the Manties, Graysons, Andermani,
Haven, and all their allies, it would probably be one hell of a challenge to
take out the Sollies.


That said, if the Manties and the Peeps were really PO'd at the Mesans, it
would seem that the smarter thing wouldn't be to try to pick a fight with
the entire Solarian League. Maybe they'd be better off trying to punch out
the Mesans quickly and decisively, before the Mesans could get the Sollies
involved. Of course, that might not make for a better story.
 >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs 

"Loren Pechtel" <lorenpechtel.TakeThisOut@hotmail.invalid.com> wrote in message
news:7cas52913e54mr6d4e8n14bqtlk694hjuc@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 07 May 2006 15:22:59 GMT, forkliftramp.com
> <Brian_knowspam.McDonald.TakeThisOut@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>>it may be they think they can shelter under the umbrella of the
>>solarian navy and thumb their noses at the manti's and havenites.
>>could be they are so wrapped up in being clever they've forgotten that
>>a clever pest can be crushed through the application of brute force.
>>all sorts of in character reasons possible for their behaviour to date
>>even if the reasons are faulty.
>
> When the dust settles with Haven the Manticore fleet will be powerful
> enough to take on the Sollie fleet in straight-up combat. If Mesa
> tries to hide behind the Sollies (and the Sollies let them) then
> Manticore would probably head for Earth.

And do what? Blow up the planet? Demand they surrender? This a Confederation
weakly joined and mainly based on trade and mutual defense. It is not in the
normal meaning of the term a government.


They can't occupy the Sollies. They don't have enough ships or people. They
can't even blockade for the same reason. This is also going to mess up trade
through the portals which is in large part Sollies. That's the Mantie cash
cow. The Sollies may not have ships at the same level but everything says
that once they get pissed off they can catch up given time. This is a real
loser.


Yes Manticore and friends can blow away any sollie fleet today but today
isn't everything. I suppose they could try running around burning off
planets if you are into that sort of thing.
 >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs 

"Fred Burton" <fburton.TakeThisOut@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
news:e3m9t9$2b3i$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>
> Loren Pechtel wrote in message
> <7cas52913e54mr6d4e8n14bqtlk694hjuc.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>...
>>On Sun, 07 May 2006 15:22:59 GMT, forkliftramp.com
>><Brian_knowspam.McDonald.TakeThisOut@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>it may be they think they can shelter under the umbrella of the
>>>solarian navy and thumb their noses at the manti's and havenites.
>>>could be they are so wrapped up in being clever they've forgotten that
>>>a clever pest can be crushed through the application of brute force.
>>>all sorts of in character reasons possible for their behaviour to date
>>>even if the reasons are faulty.
>>
>>When the dust settles with Haven the Manticore fleet will be powerful
>>enough to take on the Sollie fleet in straight-up combat. If Mesa
>>tries to hide behind the Sollies (and the Sollies let them) then
>>Manticore would probably head for Earth.
>
> The problem with dealing with the Sollies is that the Solarian League is
> just sooooo enormous. Yes, the Manties and their allies with the latest
> tech developed by the Manties and the Peeps, could probably punch thru to
> Earth pretty darned quick. The problem probably is that the SL's
> resources
> and building capacity is probably so vast and diffuse that the loss of
> Earth
> may not mean that much militarily. Also, while the SL battle fleet may
> not
> be top of the line, compared to the Manties, their allies, or even the
> Peeps, they have the resources and tech base to make up the difference
> fairly quickly, if they could enther hold off the manties, et.al. or delay
> such a conflict.
>
> That said, one problem that the Sollies may have relative to making up the
> difference is that lacking either examples of the technology or first hand
> experience against it, they may be in a difficult position to duplicate
> it.
> For example, do they even know about MDM's yet? How far behind are they?
> Also, they don't have the advantages that the peeps have had. While the
> Peeps may not have the Sollies underlying tech base, they've had a couple
> of
> decades of combat experience against the best high tech weapons the
> Manties
> could throw at them, and have lots of experience in trying to at least
> develop counter technologies that are within their inferior tech base to
> produce.
>
> OTOH, the Sollies haven't exactly been under the same pressures to produce
> technological wonders. The Manties have the pressure of knowing that
> their
> tech edge over the Peeps is what allows them to survive while outnumbered.
> And the Peeps know that for their survival, they have to constantly try to
> catch up to the manties, plus develop lower tech counters to any new Manty
> weapons. What pressures have been placed on the Sollies military R&D
> establishment? It just can't be anything to match the pressures the
> Manties
> and Peeps, et.al. have been living and producing under.
>
>
>
> I'm not really sure that the Manties could really take out the entire
> Solarian league, no matter how much better the RMN's ships are. The SLN
> would probably be able to use their vast resources to delay, delay, delay.
> Hell, even with the combined resources of the Manties, Graysons,
> Andermani,
> Haven, and all their allies, it would probably be one hell of a challenge
> to
> take out the Sollies.
>
>
> That said, if the Manties and the Peeps were really PO'd at the Mesans, it
> would seem that the smarter thing wouldn't be to try to pick a fight with
> the entire Solarian League. Maybe they'd be better off trying to punch
> out
> the Mesans quickly and decisively, before the Mesans could get the Sollies
> involved. Of course, that might not make for a better story.
>
>

We do agree. Show up and collect as many citizen Mesans as you can and all
the evidence of what they have been up to and dump the data into the Sollie
media. If this place is set up like I expect the locals will do so much
damage that even if you just leave it the place won't be much use for Mesa
though I'd hate to leave the former slaves to their mercy.
 >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs 

deowll wrote:
> "Offbreed" <offbreed_106.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:gqCdnaG0yr2Wi8PZnZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@scnresearch.com...
>> deowll wrote:
>>> They have an invincibility syndrome and they absolutely do not have the
>>> military muscle to make that sane.
>> I just started rereading "Crown of Slaves", and hit something I'd
>> forgotten:
>>
>> "Rumor had it that their bodies-pieces of them, anyway-had wound up being
>> delivered by freight shipping to several of the large recruiting halls on
>> Manpower's home planet of Mesa. Slavery was not Mesa's only profitable
>> business. The planet was also the galaxy's largest center for free-lance
>> mercenary outfits."
>>
>> They are not totally helpless.
>
> This has been tried before. Having combat units composed of forced labor is
> very, very, dangerous to the user. The people most likely to kill Mesa are
> their former slaves.

Mercs are not slaves.
 >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs 

deowll wrote in message <8Fx7g.62618$Jk3.42935@bignews5.bellsouth.net>...
>
>"Fred Burton" <fburton.TakeThisOut@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
>news:e3l45l$1vis$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>>
>> deowll wrote in message ...
>>>
>>>"Loren Pechtel" <lorenpechtel.TakeThisOut@hotmail.invalid.com> wrote in message
>>>news:c0ip52haua634grqluhn27dra68i3c74pv@4ax.com...
>>>> On 5 May 2006 20:13:31 -0700, "Hoi-Polloi" <terry_tn.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Is Haven in a position to immediately take over the whole Star
>>>>>Kingdom except for Manticore itself? Including Alizon, Grayson,
>>>>>etc?
>>>>
>>>> No. They don't know where the new ships are deployed. Haven also
>>>> doesn't have much firepower left, they committed just about all of
>>>> their combat-ready force to Beatrice.
>>>>
>>>>>Why didn't Haven pop a couple of missiles off here and there to
>>>>>blow up orbital manufacturing facilities? It's not like they didn't
>>>>>bring a lot of ammo. I think they would have done better to have
>>>>>the whole invasion fleet be a suicide squadron tasked to take out
>>>>>the factories At All ... well, you know.
>>>>
>>>> The problem is the orbital facilities are orbital. That is, very
>>>> close to the planet. A slight malfunction of a missile and the planet
>>>> get clobbered. Eridani time. Some time ago we worked out the impact
>>>> energies. I don't recall the burnout speed of a Havenite missile, we
>>>> were working with Ghost Rider numbers--and got something like 10% of
>>>> the energy of the dinosaur killer. You can actually increase the
>>>> damage by setting off the warhead a bit before impact.
>>>>
>>>> That's why nobody takes long range shots at orbital factories.
>>>
>>>Depends on what they are in orbit around and how far they are out. A
>> hundred
>>>miles up from an inhabited planet would not be a good move. Around a star
>> is
>>>not a problem.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Is there any chance for peace talks? I'm starting to be reminded
>>>>>of the wars that drained Byzantium and Persia to the point where
>>>>>they could not resist the Arab expansion (of course, everything
>>>>>reminds me of Byzantium and Persia, so I may be off here).
>>>>
>>>> I think Manticore will soon be in a position to impose peace.
>>>
>>>To be fair that depends on DW. Imposing peace is only going to lead to
>> round
>>>three.
>>
>> I don't see Elizabeth settling for merely calling a truce jusdt to simply
>> end the fighting. I think that QE wants to have a final resolution to
>> this
>> Manticore-Haven conflict, not just an end to the war for the sake of
>> ending
>> the war. That said, a final resolution could either be with the RMN
>> wiping
>> out the Peeps in the Haven system and a traditional unconditional
>> surrender.
>> or perhaps, Cachat and Zilwicki return with the proof that the Mesans
have
>> been playing the Manties and Peeps like pawns, and Elizabeth and
Pritchard
>> decide to meet and finally bury the hachet (and not in each other), then
>> turn on Mesa.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>Sounds just like what the French and British said at the end of WW I when
>they laid the foundation for WW II.
>
>
>

Deowll, you've lost me here. Could you please add a little more background?
Thx.
 >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs 

On Sun, 7 May 2006 18:40:33 -0500, "deowll" <deowll.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

>> Kinetic energy is 1/2 m v^2.
>>
>> Capital missiles mass about 100 tons, and have a terminal velocity of
>> over 200,000kps.
>>
>> Typical piece of interplanetary rock is moving at about 20kps.
>>
>> Kinetic energy of a missile is about the same as that of a
>> 10,000,000,000 ton rock.
>
>At what relative speed?

I would assume he's equating it to a rock at typical impact velocity.

>> A capital missile hitting a planet would transfer about as much energy
>> as the equivalent mass of anti-matter.
>>
>> The damage done by the wedge itself, or even the missile's warhead,
>> would be so small it would be trivial in comparison.
>
>The reason I'm worried about the wedge is that it is "indestructible" more
>or less according himself.

The wedge is indestructable but the generator can be burned out and
would be if you hit a planet.

>The result of an object going this fast impacting the atmosphere of a planet
>is most likely going to have more in common with the antimatter hits air
>than the wrecking ball big rock hits air.

It's going to hit nearly that hard wedge or no wedge.
 >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs 

On Sun, 7 May 2006 21:32:39 -0500, "deowll" <deowll.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

> We worked some of this out a year or two ago.
>>
>> Ghost rider at burnout velocity = 10% of the dinosaur killer.
>
>Which is more like a continent killer. It just isn't going to do damage in
>exactly the same way which makes it harder to understand exactly what will
>happen. I'd expect a blast of radiant energy including hard radiation with
>much less of a clearly defined impact. Blah, to many words and not enough
>hard science.

Actually the impact would be more focused. The missile would probably
end up in the mantle.
 >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs 

"Offbreed" <offbreed_106.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XpWdnWMKgqOiy8LZRVn-ug@scnresearch.com...
> deowll wrote:
>> "Offbreed" <offbreed_106.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:gqCdnaG0yr2Wi8PZnZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@scnresearch.com...
>>> deowll wrote:
>>>> They have an invincibility syndrome and they absolutely do not have
>>>> the military muscle to make that sane.
>>> I just started rereading "Crown of Slaves", and hit something I'd
>>> forgotten:
>>>
>>> "Rumor had it that their bodies-pieces of them, anyway-had wound up
>>> being delivered by freight shipping to several of the large recruiting
>>> halls on Manpower's home planet of Mesa. Slavery was not Mesa's only
>>> profitable business. The planet was also the galaxy's largest center for
>>> free-lance mercenary outfits."
>>>
>>> They are not totally helpless.
>>
>> This has been tried before. Having combat units composed of forced labor
>> is very, very, dangerous to the user. The people most likely to kill Mesa
>> are their former slaves.
>
> Mercs are not slaves.

Mesa doesn't clone and sell free people.

If Mercs are buying warm bodies from Mesa it is cash on the barrel head. I
call that slave trading.

If Mesa is just acting a broker for Merc units composed of free men then
their super soldiers are of dubious use to them. In any event, unless they
are citizens, loyalty is a huge issue. As the Italians learned, counting on
hired muscle to fight your wars is extremely risky even if they are good and
even more risky if they aren't.


You have fun now.
 >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs 

"Fred Burton" <fburton DeleteThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
news:e3nns1$2mjm$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>
> deowll wrote in message <8Fx7g.62618$Jk3.42935@bignews5.bellsouth.net>...
>>
>>"Fred Burton" <fburton DeleteThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
>>news:e3l45l$1vis$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>>>
>>> deowll wrote in message ...
>>>>
>>>>"Loren Pechtel" <lorenpechtel DeleteThis @hotmail.invalid.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:c0ip52haua634grqluhn27dra68i3c74pv@4ax.com...
>>>>> On 5 May 2006 20:13:31 -0700, "Hoi-Polloi" <terry_tn DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Is Haven in a position to immediately take over the whole Star
>>>>>>Kingdom except for Manticore itself? Including Alizon, Grayson,
>>>>>>etc?
>>>>>
>>>>> No. They don't know where the new ships are deployed. Haven also
>>>>> doesn't have much firepower left, they committed just about all of
>>>>> their combat-ready force to Beatrice.
>>>>>
>>>>>>Why didn't Haven pop a couple of missiles off here and there to
>>>>>>blow up orbital manufacturing facilities? It's not like they didn't
>>>>>>bring a lot of ammo. I think they would have done better to have
>>>>>>the whole invasion fleet be a suicide squadron tasked to take out
>>>>>>the factories At All ... well, you know.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem is the orbital facilities are orbital. That is, very
>>>>> close to the planet. A slight malfunction of a missile and the planet
>>>>> get clobbered. Eridani time. Some time ago we worked out the impact
>>>>> energies. I don't recall the burnout speed of a Havenite missile, we
>>>>> were working with Ghost Rider numbers--and got something like 10% of
>>>>> the energy of the dinosaur killer. You can actually increase the
>>>>> damage by setting off the warhead a bit before impact.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's why nobody takes long range shots at orbital factories.
>>>>
>>>>Depends on what they are in orbit around and how far they are out. A
>>> hundred
>>>>miles up from an inhabited planet would not be a good move. Around a
>>>>star
>>> is
>>>>not a problem.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Is there any chance for peace talks? I'm starting to be reminded
>>>>>>of the wars that drained Byzantium and Persia to the point where
>>>>>>they could not resist the Arab expansion (of course, everything
>>>>>>reminds me of Byzantium and Persia, so I may be off here).
>>>>>
>>>>> I think Manticore will soon be in a position to impose peace.
>>>>
>>>>To be fair that depends on DW. Imposing peace is only going to lead to
>>> round
>>>>three.
>>>
>>> I don't see Elizabeth settling for merely calling a truce jusdt to
>>> simply
>>> end the fighting. I think that QE wants to have a final resolution to
>>> this
>>> Manticore-Haven conflict, not just an end to the war for the sake of
>>> ending
>>> the war. That said, a final resolution could either be with the RMN
>>> wiping
>>> out the Peeps in the Haven system and a traditional unconditional
>>> surrender.
>>> or perhaps, Cachat and Zilwicki return with the proof that the Mesans
> have
>>> been playing the Manties and Peeps like pawns, and Elizabeth and
> Pritchard
>>> decide to meet and finally bury the hachet (and not in each other), then
>>> turn on Mesa.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Sounds just like what the French and British said at the end of WW I when
>>they laid the foundation for WW II.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Deowll, you've lost me here. Could you please add a little more
> background?
> Thx.
>
>
>

France and Britain disarmed Germany after WW I. The U.S. went along with it
though our President thought it was dumb but he got France and Britian to
agree to creating the League of Nation in return. Germany wasn't supposed to
make tanks, etc. With little more than rifles they didn't think Germany
would be any sort of threat. They of course demanded that Germany pay for
the last war as well. It worked for several years but then Hitler came
along. Germany started to rearm covertly. By the time the French and British
really noticed what was going on stopping him would have meant a major war.
They got one any way.

Hitler was a veteran of WW I and in the hospital from being gassed I think
when the first war ended. I think most people agree that he was out for
revenge. The French were forced to surrender in the same railroad car the
Germans had surrendered in.
 >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs 

Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "Fred Burton"
<fburton DeleteThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote on Sun, 7 May 2006 11:27:19 -0400 in
alt.books.david-weber :
>
>>> OTOH, the Andermani don't have the experience (recently) of having an
>>> engagement result in ship lost lists taking up paragraphs, and casualty
>>> lists running for pages.
>>> To quote O'hura in "Star Drek" "We done took a shellacking!"
>>>>
>>
>>True but they also dished one out. They know they have a huge tech edge and
>>they are going to be much more afraid of the Republic now than they were
>>before. They know their old navy couldn't have prevented the Repbulican
>>forces from taking them over. With Manticore help they have reason to think
>>they can.
>>
>>
>Indeed. The Andermani have the ability to build plenty of SD's and, with
>the Manty tech, those SD's are at the leading edge of technology in the
>Honorverse.
>
>And it's hard to imagine that they would have thought that they wouldn't
>take some casualties in this conflict. The Andermani seem like the sort of
>people who won't run away at the their first bloody nose.

Not saying that the casualty lists arriving back home will cause the
Andermani to cut and run, but, well, that many Glorious Military Funerals
will have an impact. A case of you think you are ready for anything, and
then you experience the reality. John Ringo, in his book Ghost, has one of
his characters comment - while doing a HALO insertion from 40,000 feet,
right through air to air missiles - "Sir, with all due respect, I regret
not self-eliminating back in basic." Up until now, it had been pretty cool
and macho, but this was nuts. Not that he was going to curl up and hide,
but he was discovering just what was meant by the job he'd volunteered for.


The Andermani have just discovered experientially what hey had known
intellectually: ships get broke, people get killed,. And in fleet actions
in Modern Warfare, that happens in job lots.

"Another victory like this, and we are undone."

tschus
pyotr


--
pyotr filipivich
Typos, Grammos and da kind are the result of ragin hormones
Fortesque Consulting: Teaching Pigs to Sing since 1968.
 >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs 

Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "deowll" <deowll.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net>
wrote on Sun, 7 May 2006 22:29:12 -0500 in alt.books.david-weber :
>
>And do what? Blow up the planet? Demand they surrender? This a Confederation
>weakly joined and mainly based on trade and mutual defense. It is not in the
>normal meaning of the term a government.
>
>
>They can't occupy the Sollies. They don't have enough ships or people. They
>can't even blockade for the same reason. This is also going to mess up trade
>through the portals which is in large part Sollies. That's the Mantie cash
>cow. The Sollies may not have ships at the same level but everything says
>that once they get pissed off they can catch up given time. This is a real
>loser.
>
>
>Yes Manticore and friends can blow away any sollie fleet today but today
>isn't everything. I suppose they could try running around burning off
>planets if you are into that sort of thing.

I would say that the Solarian League is in a similar situation to
Legislaturist Haven: they are the biggest system in the neighborhood, and
figure that is all they need to be. While they might be qualitatively
behind Manticore and the Republic "quantity has it's own quality". A
combine operation of Haven, Manticore, the Andermani and Grayson will run
rampant for a while, till the sheer numbers start to bog things down.
I doubt many in Manticore or Haven have considered the internal
stresses in the Solarian League, or the possible diplomatic opportunities
this might provide, to isolate Mesa while the League undergoes some
restructuring (another way of saying "fragmenting".) I suspect that there
are a number of forward thinking individuals who realize that it might be
possible, under the right conditions, to set themselves up as a regional
power (Warlord), replacing the "defunct" Solarian League (usurping is such
an emotionally charged word...). Hmmm, collapse of the Westren Roman
Empire scenario?


tschus
pyotr


--
pyotr filipivich
Typos, Grammos and da kind are the result of ragin hormones
Fortesque Consulting: Teaching Pigs to Sing since 1968.
 >> Stay informed about: Situation at end of At All Costs