Snide parodies

After a Computer crash and the demise of civilization, it was learned
Quadibloc <jsavard.TakeThisOut@ecn.ab.ca> wrote on Tue, 02 Oct 2007 19:06:01 -0700
in alt.books.david-weber :
>pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> Like I said "it's turtle all the way down." Which is why the SD(P)
>> are so big. You just think those are pods, but half of them are heat
>> sinks taking the excess heat with them.
>
>I do remember one science-fiction author, I believe it was Heinlein,
>who said that science-fiction writers could take liberties with almost
>any known laws of science and still be plausible, because new
>discoveries that upset established theories can be made - but *not*
>the Three Laws of Thermodynamics.
>
>However, the Honor Harrington novels are not necessarily great
>offenders in this regard. After all, in most battles, energy weapons
>only play a minor role - most of the deadly effect comes from
>missiles.
>
>Also, air conditioners and heat pumps work by using energy to take
>heat from a colder area and put it in a warmer area. So refrigerators
>*do* work on a spaceship - just use enough energy to heat the fins up
>so that they will radiate all the waste heat away (plus ten or a
>hundred times as much energy as the waste heat originally contained
>required to move the heat to the hotter fins).

Well, now we know what causes the ships to explode when battle
damage hits the engine room. All that "waste heat" which had been
stored away "till later" suddenly is releases in a catastrophic failure,
much like the depowering of the containment field in Ghostbusters.

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
We now return you to something called reality.
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On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 19:06:01 -0700, Quadibloc <jsavard DeleteThis @ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>
>Also, air conditioners and heat pumps work by using energy to take
>heat from a colder area and put it in a warmer area. So refrigerators
>*do* work on a spaceship - just use enough energy to heat the fins up
>so that they will radiate all the waste heat away (plus ten or a
>hundred times as much energy as the waste heat originally contained
>required to move the heat to the hotter fins).

There's a reason that Dewar flasks for holding liquid gasses are
insulated with vacuum. Losing heat in a vacuum via radiation (the
only way to do so unless you eject mass to carry it away) is a *slow*
and highly ineffiicent process.

Space is not cold. Space is not temperature at all.

And refrigerators and air cponditioners (which a heat pumps is) only
work if there's somewhere toi actually *put* the heat.

--
mike weber (fairportfan@gmail.com)
============================
My Website: http://electronictiger.com
===================================
No use looking for the answers when the questions are in doubt - Fred leBlanc, "The Love of My Life"
 >> Stay informed about: Snide parodies 

After a Computer crash and the demise of civilization, it was learned
mike weber <fairportfan.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote on Thu, 04 Oct 2007 23:43:22
-0400 in alt.books.david-weber :
>On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 19:06:01 -0700, Quadibloc <jsavard.RemoveThis@ecn.ab.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>Also, air conditioners and heat pumps work by using energy to take
>>heat from a colder area and put it in a warmer area. So refrigerators
>>*do* work on a spaceship - just use enough energy to heat the fins up
>>so that they will radiate all the waste heat away (plus ten or a
>>hundred times as much energy as the waste heat originally contained
>>required to move the heat to the hotter fins).
>
>There's a reason that Dewar flasks for holding liquid gasses are
>insulated with vacuum. Losing heat in a vacuum via radiation (the
>only way to do so unless you eject mass to carry it away) is a *slow*
>and highly ineffiicent process.
>
>Space is not cold. Space is not temperature at all.
>
>And refrigerators and air cponditioners (which a heat pumps is) only
>work if there's somewhere toi actually *put* the heat.

We're heating up the quantum foam.
--
pyotr filipivich
The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were
better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes."
 >> Stay informed about: Snide parodies 

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 23:43:22 -0400, mike weber wrote:


> Space is not cold. Space is not temperature at all.
>
> And refrigerators and air cponditioners (which a heat pumps is) only
> work if there's somewhere toi actually *put* the heat.

Technically space is almost totally devoid of heat....and cold is
basically just absence of heat. Space is by that definition very cold.
 >> Stay informed about: Snide parodies 

"mike weber" <fairportfan DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1hcbg3lp078oq88etc3r8126997593g0i9@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 19:06:01 -0700, Quadibloc <jsavard DeleteThis @ecn.ab.ca>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Also, air conditioners and heat pumps work by using energy to take
>>heat from a colder area and put it in a warmer area. So refrigerators
>>*do* work on a spaceship - just use enough energy to heat the fins up
>>so that they will radiate all the waste heat away (plus ten or a
>>hundred times as much energy as the waste heat originally contained
>>required to move the heat to the hotter fins).
>
> There's a reason that Dewar flasks for holding liquid gasses are
> insulated with vacuum. Losing heat in a vacuum via radiation (the
> only way to do so unless you eject mass to carry it away) is a *slow*
> and highly ineffiicent process.
>
> Space is not cold. Space is not temperature at all.
>
> And refrigerators and air cponditioners (which a heat pumps is) only
> work if there's somewhere toi actually *put* the heat.
>

Not wishing to tread on any toes!

DW has covered off getting rid of waste heat "out-of-band" of the books.

From Pears of Weber
(http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/Harrington/hh_ais_and_nanotech.htm)
From an email response posted to Baen's Bar BuShips dated August 11, 2004:
Artificial intelligence and nanotechnology
....
(last paragraph)

And while I'm on the subject of nanotechnology, remember the "smart paint"
used by most of the Honorverse navies. That incorporates quite a bit of
nanotech, and, among other things, is used in management of waste heat by
Honorverse ships. Whenever an impeller-drive vessel's wedge or sails are up,
they are part of a complex energy management system. They are able to
"siphon" energy across the interface to "higher" levels of hyper-space, and
they can also be used as an energy sump into which waste heat can be dumped.
A lot of the waste heat produced by these ships is recaptured and converted
into stored energy in the capacitor rings, but there is no way in the
universe that they could recapture and use enough of it to keep from cooking
their crews under normal circumstances. The "cooking component" heat is
what's routinely radiated into and through the wedge and sails when a ship's
nodes are hot. When they aren't hot, other arrangements have to be made.
Merchant vessels, which aren't armored and do not normally use "smart
paint," incorporate radiator arrays into their basic hull design for use
when the wedge is down. Warships, which do use "smart paint," effectively
reconfigure their "paint" to convert it into a heat-radiating surface.
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After a Computer crash and the demise of civilization, it was learned
coldfire <coldfire.RemoveThis@i.hate.spam> wrote on Sat, 06 Oct 2007 18:04:10 -0400
in alt.books.david-weber :
>On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 23:43:22 -0400, mike weber wrote:
>
>
>> Space is not cold. Space is not temperature at all.
>>
>> And refrigerators and air cponditioners (which a heat pumps is) only
>> work if there's somewhere toi actually *put* the heat.
>
>Technically space is almost totally devoid of heat....and cold is
>basically just absence of heat. Space is by that definition very cold.
>

True. But the problem is that the most efficient means of heat
transfer is conduction: this hot thing warms what mater which rests
against it (gas, fluid or solid) until an equilibrium is reached. In
space, there is not enough matter to matter, and you're stuck with what
I understand to be the "black body" problem - can you radiate thermal
energy away faster than it builds up in the "black body".
I remember a short story where robots and AIs had taken over the
solar system, as they were more efficient. But the interstellar probes
were failing. Finally, they send a meat unit (human) along. Turns out
that hyperspace is not "cold", and the robots could not keep their
superconductor circuits "cold", when there is a background temp of ~290
Kelvin (or about 70 degrees F). The robots over heated and failed, but
the human just stripped down to his skippies and sweated it out. The
humans were the ones who would be exploring and colonizing other stars.

Hmmm, there is an interesting plot complication: a hyperspace which
is "denser" than N space, and that includes the thermal energy. In
other words, rather than being 4 degrees Kelvin, it is the same factor
higher as the distance are closer. You can tell the diplomatic
couriers, they're the skinny ones who go to the Sahara for the cool
weather.

tschus
pyotr

But I still say, given a long enough superconductor extension cord, we
can get those giant space refrigerators to work.
--
pyotr filipivich
The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were
better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes."
 >> Stay informed about: Snide parodies 

In article <9jlqg3hmb7bkrrlnktdcpt6v5f29ji7ag6 DeleteThis @4ax.com>,
pyotr filipivich <phamp DeleteThis @mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> I remember a short story where robots and AIs had taken over the
>solar system, as they were more efficient. But the interstellar probes
>were failing. Finally, they send a meat unit (human) along. Turns out
>that hyperspace is not "cold", and the robots could not keep their
>superconductor circuits "cold", when there is a background temp of ~290
>Kelvin (or about 70 degrees F). The robots over heated and failed, but
>the human just stripped down to his skippies and sweated it out. The
>humans were the ones who would be exploring and colonizing other stars.

You're misremembering a story from Asimov's _I, Robot_.
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
"You said there was going to be whining here."
"I didn't say there wasn't also going to be MAS." --AM/SM
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After a Computer crash and the demise of civilization, it was learned
aahz RemoveThis @pobox.com (Aahz Maruch) wrote on 10 Oct 2007 15:59:20 -0700 in
alt.books.david-weber :
>In article <9jlqg3hmb7bkrrlnktdcpt6v5f29ji7ag6 RemoveThis @4ax.com>,
>pyotr filipivich <phamp RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> I remember a short story where robots and AIs had taken over the
>>solar system, as they were more efficient. But the interstellar probes
>>were failing. Finally, they send a meat unit (human) along. Turns out
>>that hyperspace is not "cold", and the robots could not keep their
>>superconductor circuits "cold", when there is a background temp of ~290
>>Kelvin (or about 70 degrees F). The robots over heated and failed, but
>>the human just stripped down to his skippies and sweated it out. The
>>humans were the ones who would be exploring and colonizing other stars.
>
>You're misremembering a story from Asimov's _I, Robot_.

Which one? I know there was a story of a robot serial killer which
became homicidal when the temps got above a certain "set point", but
that wasn't the one I'm referencing.
--
pyotr filipivich
The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were
better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes."
 >> Stay informed about: Snide parodies 

On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 03:58:23 -0700, pyotr filipivich
<phamp DeleteThis @mindspring.com> wrote:

>After a Computer crash and the demise of civilization, it was learned
>mike weber <fairportfan DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote on Thu, 04 Oct 2007 23:43:22
>-0400 in alt.books.david-weber :

>>Space is not cold. Space is no temperature at all.
>>
>>And refrigerators and air cponditioners (which a heat pumps is) only
>>work if there's somewhere toi actually *put* the heat.
>
> We're heating up the quantum foam.

Sorry. It's already fully energised.

--
mike weber (fairportfan@gmail.com)
============================
My Website: http://electronictiger.com
===================================
No use looking for the answers when the questions are in doubt - Fred leBlanc, "The Love of My Life"
 >> Stay informed about: Snide parodies 

On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 18:04:10 -0400, coldfire <coldfire.TakeThisOut@i.hate.spam>
wrote:

>On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 23:43:22 -0400, mike weber wrote:
>
>
>> Space is not cold. Space is not temperature at all.
>>
>> And refrigerators and air cponditioners (which a heat pumps is) only
>> work if there's somewhere toi actually *put* the heat.
>
>Technically space is almost totally devoid of heat....and cold is
>basically just absence of heat. Space is by that definition very cold.
>
No. Space is not temperature at all.

Matter has temperature.

Where there is no matter, there is no temperature.

Yes, objects that float around in space long enough will be very very
cold ... but it takes quite a while for them to become that cold, and,
if they have any energy source generating heat internally, they may
never get that cold.

Radiating heat to space where there is nothing to conduct it away is a
*slow* process.

--
mike weber (fairportfan@gmail.com)
============================
My Website: http://electronictiger.com
===================================
No use looking for the answers when the questions are in doubt - Fred leBlanc, "The Love of My Life"
 >> Stay informed about: Snide parodies 

On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 21:45:21 +1300, "Peter Nield"
<pj_nield.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

>"mike weber" <fairportfan.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1hcbg3lp078oq88etc3r8126997593g0i9@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 19:06:01 -0700, Quadibloc <jsavard.DeleteThis@ecn.ab.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Also, air conditioners and heat pumps work by using energy to take
>>>heat from a colder area and put it in a warmer area. So refrigerators
>>>*do* work on a spaceship - just use enough energy to heat the fins up
>>>so that they will radiate all the waste heat away (plus ten or a
>>>hundred times as much energy as the waste heat originally contained
>>>required to move the heat to the hotter fins).
>>
>> There's a reason that Dewar flasks for holding liquid gasses are
>> insulated with vacuum. Losing heat in a vacuum via radiation (the
>> only way to do so unless you eject mass to carry it away) is a *slow*
>> and highly ineffiicent process.
>>
>> Space is not cold. Space is not temperature at all.
>>
>> And refrigerators and air cponditioners (which a heat pumps is) only
>> work if there's somewhere toi actually *put* the heat.
>>
>
>Not wishing to tread on any toes!
>
>DW has covered off getting rid of waste heat "out-of-band" of the books.
>
>From Pears of Weber
>(http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/Harrington/hh_ais_and_nanotech.htm)
>From an email response posted to Baen's Bar BuShips dated August 11, 2004:
> Artificial intelligence and nanotechnology
>...
>(last paragraph)
>
..
>Merchant vessels, which aren't armored and do not normally use "smart
>paint," incorporate radiator arrays into their basic hull design for use
>when the wedge is down. Warships, which do use "smart paint," effectively
>reconfigure their "paint" to convert it into a heat-radiating surface.
>

Sorry. While i will accept the hand-wave about dissipating energy
through the wedge, since such tech works the way the author says iut
does, the whole point here is that it is difficult-to-impossible to
radiate that much heat that fast to a vacuum.

--
mike weber (fairportfan@gmail.com)
============================
My Website: http://electronictiger.com
===================================
No use looking for the answers when the questions are in doubt - Fred leBlanc, "The Love of My Life"
 >> Stay informed about: Snide parodies 

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:40:53 -0700, pyotr filipivich
<phamp DeleteThis @mindspring.com> wrote:

>Which one? I know there was a story of a robot serial killer which
>became homicidal when the temps got above a certain "set point", but
>that wasn't the one I'm referencing.

And that wasn't Asimov - that's Bester's "Fondly Fahrenheit". And it
was an android (meaning an artificial living being) not a robot.

--
mike weber (fairportfan@gmail.com)
============================
My Website: http://electronictiger.com
===================================
No use looking for the answers when the questions are in doubt - Fred leBlanc, "The Love of My Life"
 >> Stay informed about: Snide parodies 

mike weber <fairportfan.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in
news:3bq0h35u8qsdurihust7lnvm691nknclkh@4ax.com:

> And that wasn't Asimov - that's Bester's "Fondly Fahrenheit". And it
> was an android (meaning an artificial living being) not a robot.
>

"The Warm Place" by an author I can't remember is what Pyotr is thinking
of.
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