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pete_bayle

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Since: Dec 16, 2003
Posts: 290



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:37 pm
Post subject: Do you know who are the Social Democrats?
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Martha has always claimed that she was a Social Democrat. For a long
time I thought I understood what that meant, in at least a vague way,
and thought I understood what it meant to Orwell. Turns out I didn't.

It turns out that Social Democrats had and made difficult decisions in
difficult and chaotic times, against violent minorities. I wonder if
Social Democrats like Martha and Orwell would have stood with their
Social Democratic brothers and sisters, who by choosing order over
chaos created a constitutional republic in Geramnay in 1919.

On January 19, 1919, five days after the article below was written,
the Social Democrats (SPD) recieved roughly 40% of the vote in
nationwide elections. The Indepedent Socialists(USPD) who had broken
off, recieved only 5%. The communists (KDP) sat out the elections.

In the assembly the seats were as follows.
(Note the sources give slightly different numbers and often combine
parites - still the general outlines are clear.)

423 - Total

166 - Social Democrats (The percentage is about the same as 2002)
90 - Catholic Center Party
75 - Liberal Democrats (DDP) - (progressive middle class)
38 - People's Party (conservatives)
22 - reactionary Nationalsts
22 - Independent Socialists (USPD)

Approximately 5% (5% wins about 22 seats) of the electorate boycotted
the election, including the Communists and the far right.

It is this election that the "revoltion" ignored, when it continued to
create unrest and chaos (for example striking and taking over ports
and refusing to allow food from the Hoover Commmission to be unloaded
to feed starving Germans). It is this election that instituted the
reforms that the Socialists had been fighting for for many years.

The government that crushed the "revolution" after January 1919 was
largely an elected Social Democratic one.

It is true that in the next election of 1920, the Social Democrats
lost much of their support to the Independent Socialists (102 seats to
84) though they were still the largest party. (I'm not sure yet how
each party modified their positions in reaction to 1919.) In addition,
many of the more moderate non-socialists moved towards the right.


As Bobby has pointed out, reading the history of Weimar make you feel
very fortunate. It also make you realize how important it is to
identify the real enemies.

**

http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1919/01/14.htm

Rosa Luxemburg
Order Prevails in Berlin

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Written: January 14, 1919
Source: Gessemelte Werke
Publisher: Dietz Verlag
First Published: Rote Fahne, 14 January 1919
Translated: Marcus
Online Version: marxists.org 1999
Transcription: Andy Lehrer/Brian Basgen


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[The following editorial is the last known piece of writing by Rosa
Luxemburg. It was written just after the Spartacus uprising was
crushed by the German government and in the hours prior to the arrest
and murder of her and Karl Liebknecht by the Friekorps.–A.L.]

"Order prevails in Warsaw!" declared Minister Sebastiani to the Paris
Chamber of Deputies in 1831, when after having stormed the suburb of
Praga, Paskevich's marauding troops invaded the Polish capital to
begin their butchery of the rebels.

"Order prevails in Berlin!" So proclaims the bourgeois press
triumphantly, so proclaim Ebert and Noske, and the officers of the
"victorious troops," who are being cheered by the petty-bourgeois mob
in Berlin waving handkerchiefs and shouting "Hurrah!" The glory and
honor of German arms have been vindicated before world history. Those
who were routed in Flanders and the Argonne have restored their
reputation with a brilliant victory -- over three hundred
"Spartacists" in the Vorwarts building. The days when glorious German
troops first crossed into Belgium, and the days of General von Emmich,
the conqueror of Liege, pale before the exploits of Reinhardt and Co.
in the streets of Berlin. The government's rampaging troops massacred
the mediators who had tried to negotiate the surrender of the Vorwarts
building, using their rifle butts to beat them beyond recognition.
Prisoners who were lined up against the wall and butchered so
violently that skull and brain tissue splattered everywhere. In the
sight of glorious deeds such as those, who would remember the
ignominious defeat at the hands of the French, British, and Americans?
Now "Spartacus" is the enemy, Berlin is the place where our officers
can savor triumph, and Noske, "the worker," is the general who can
lead victories where Ludendorff failed.

Who is not reminded of that drunken celebration by the "law and order"
mob in Paris, that Bacchanal of the bourgeoisie celebrated over the
corpses of the Communards? That same bourgeoisie who had just
shamefully capitulated to the Prussians and abandoned the capital to
the invading enemy, taking to their heels like abject cowards. Oh, how
the manly courage of those darling sons of the bourgeoisie, of the
"golden youth," and of the officer corps flared back to life against
the poorly armed, starving Parisian proletariat and their defenseless
women and children. How these courageous sons of Mars, who had buckled
before the foreign enemy, raged with bestial cruelty against
defenseless people, prisoners, and the fallen.

"Order prevails in Warsaw!" "Order prevails in Paris!" "Order prevails
in Berlin!" Every half-century that is what the bulletins from the
guardians of "order" proclaim from one center of the world-historic
struggle to the next. And the jubilant "victors" fail to notice that
any "order" that needs to be regularly maintained through bloody
slaughter heads inexorably toward its historic destiny; its own
demise.

What was this recent "Spartacus week" in Berlin? What has it brought?
What does it teach us? While we are still in the midst of battle,
while the counterrevolution is still howling about their victory,
revolutionary proletarians must take stock of what happened and
measure the events and their results against the great yardstick of
history. The revolution has no time to lose, it continues to rush
headlong over still-open graves, past "victories" and "defeats,"
toward its great goal. The first duty of fighters for international
socialism is to consciously follow the revolution's principles and its
path.

Was the ultimate victory of the revolutionary proletariat to be
expected in this conflict? Could we have expected the overthrow
Ebert-Scheidemann and the establishment of a socialist dictatorship?
Certainly not, if we carefully consider all the variables that weigh
upon the question. The weak link in the revolutionary cause is the
political immaturity of the masses of soldiers, who still allow their
officers to misuse them, against the people, for counterrevolutionary
ends. This alone shows that no lasting revolutionary victory was
possible at this juncture. On the other hand, the immaturity of the
military is itself a symptom of the general immaturity of the German
revolution.

The countryside, from which a large percentage of rank-and-file
soldiers come, has hardly been touched by the revolution. So far,
Berlin has remained virtually isolated from the rest of the country.
The revolutionary centers in the provinces -- the Rhineland, the
northern coast, Brunswick, Saxony, Wurttemburg -- have been heart and
soul behind the Berlin workers, it is true. But for the time being
they still do not march forward in lockstep with one another, there is
still no unity of action, which would make the forward thrust and
fighting will of the Berlin working class incomparably more effective.
Furthermore, there is -- and this is only the deeper cause of the
political immaturity of the revolution -- the economic struggle, the
actual volcanic font that feeds the revolution, is only in its initial
stage. And that is the underlying reason why the revolutionary class
struggle, is in its infancy.

From all this that flows the fact a decisive, lasting victory could
not be counted upon at this moment. Does that mean that the past
week's struggle was an "error"? The answer is yes if we were talking
about a premeditated "raid" or "putsch." But what triggered this week
of combat? As in all previous cases, such as December 6 and December
24, it was a brutal provocation by the government. Like the bloodbath
against defenseless demonstrators in Chausseestrasse, like the
butchery of the sailors, this time the assault on the Berlin police
headquarters was the cause of all the events that followed. The
revolution does not develop evenly of its own volition, in a clear
field of battle, according to a cunning plan devised by clever
"strategists."

The revolution's enemies can also take the initiative, and indeed as a
rule they exercise it more frequently than does the revolution. Faced
with the brazen provocation by Ebert-Scheidemann, the revolutionary
workers were forced to take up arms. Indeed, the honor of the
revolution depended upon repelling the attack immediately, with
full-force in order to prevent the counterrevolution from being
encouraged to press forward, and lest the revolutionary ranks of the
proletariat and the moral credit of the German revolution in the
International be shaken.

The immediate and spontaneous outpouring of resistance from the Berlin
masses flowed with such energy and determination that in the first
round the moral victory was won by the "streets."

Now, it is one of the fundamental, inner laws of revolution that it
never stands still, it never becomes passive or docile at any stage,
once the first step has been taken. The best defense is a strong blow.
This is the elementary rule of any fight but it is especially true at
each and every stage of the revolution. It is a demonstration of the
healthy instinct and fresh inner strength of the Berlin proletariat
that it was not appeased by the reinstatement of Eichorn (which it had
demanded), rather the proletariat spontaneously occupied the command
posts of the counter-revolution: the bourgeois press, the
semi-official press agency, the Vorwarts office. All these measures
were a result of the masses' instinctive realization that, for its
part, the counter-revolution would not accept defeat but would carry
on with a general demonstration of its strength.

Here again we stand before one of the great historical laws of the
revolution against which are smashed to pieces all the sophistry and
arrogance of the petty USPD variety "revolutionaries" who look for any
pretext to retreat from struggle. As soon as the fundamental problem
of the revolution has been clearly posed -- and in this revolution it
is the overthrow of the Ebert-Scheidemann government, the primary
obstacle to the victory of socialism -- then this basic problem will
rise again and again in its entirety. With the inevitability of a
natural law, every individual chapter in the struggle will unveil this
problem to its full extent regardless of how unprepared the revolution
is ready to solve it or how unripe the situation may be. "Down with
Ebert-Scheidemann!" -- this slogan springs forth inevitably in each
revolutionary crisis as the only formula summing up all partial
struggles. Thus automatically, by its own internal, objective logic,
bringing each episode in the struggle to a boil, whether one wants it
to or not.

Because of the contradiction in the early stages of the revolutionary
process between the task being sharply posed and the absence of any
preconditions to resolve it, individual battles of the revolution end
in formal defeat. But revolution is the only form of "war" -- and this
is another peculiar law of history -- in which the ultimate victory
can be prepared only by a series of "defeats."

What does the entire history of socialism and of all modern
revolutions show us? The first spark of class struggle in Europe, the
revolt of the silk weavers in Lyon in 1831, ended with a heavy defeat;
the Chartist movement in Britain ended in defeat; the uprising of the
Parisian proletariat in the June days of 1848 ended with a crushing
defeat; and the Paris commune ended with a terrible defeat. The whole
road of socialism -- so far as revolutionary struggles are concerned
-- is paved with nothing but thunderous defeats. Yet, at the same
time, history marches inexorably, step by step, toward final victory!
Where would we be today without those "defeats," from which we draw
historical experience, understanding, power and idealism? Today, as we
advance into the final battle of the proletarian class war, we stand
on the foundation of those very defeats; and we can do without any of
them, because each one contributes to our strength and understanding.

The revolutionary struggle is the very antithesis of the parliamentary
struggle. In Germany, for four decades we had nothing but
parliamentary "victories." We practically walked from victory to
victory. And when faced with the great historical test of August 4,
1914, the result was the devastating political and moral defeat, an
outrageous debacle and rot without parallel. To date, revolutions have
given us nothing but defeats. Yet these unavoidable defeats pile up
guarantee upon guarantee of the future final victory.

There is but one condition. The question of why each defeat occurred
must be answered. Did it occur because the forward-storming combative
energy of the masses collided with the barrier of unripe historical
conditions, or was it that indecision, vacillation, and internal
frailty crippled the revolutionary impulse itself?

Classic examples of both cases are the February revolution in France
on the one hand and the March revolution in Germany on the other. The
courage of the Parisian proletariat in the year 1848 has become a
fountain of energy for the class struggle of the entire international
proletariat. The deplorable events of the German March revolution of
the same year have weighed down the whole development of modern
Germany like a ball and chain. In the particular history of official
German Social Democracy, they have reverberated right up into the most
recent developments in the German revolution and on into the dramatic
crisis we have just experienced.

How does the defeat of "Spartacus week" appear in the light of the
above historical question? Was it a case of raging, uncontrollable
revolutionary energy colliding with an insufficiently ripe situation,
or was it a case of weak and indecisive action?

Both! The crisis had a dual nature. The contradiction between the
powerful, decisive, aggressive offensive of the Berlin masses on the
one hand and the indecisive, half-hearted vacillation of the Berlin
leadership on the other is the mark of this latest episode. The
leadership failed. But a new leadership can and must be created by the
masses and from the masses. The masses are the crucial factor. They
are the rock on which the ultimate victory of the revolution will be
built. The masses were up to the challenge, and out of this "defeat"
they have forged a link in the chain of historic defeats, which is the
pride and strength of international socialism. That is why future
victories will spring from this "defeat."

"Order prevails in Berlin!" You foolish lackeys! Your "order" is built
on sand. Tomorrow the revolution will "rise up again, clashing its
weapons," and to your horror it will proclaim with trumpets blazing:

I was, I am, I shall be!

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bridegam

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Since: Jun 27, 2003
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:58 pm
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Pete Bayle wrote:

 > Martha has always claimed that she was a Social Democrat.

Incorrect as usual.

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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mabjo

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Since: Jun 28, 2003
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:03 pm
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Martha Bridegam wrote:

 > Pete Bayle wrote:
 >
  > > Martha has always claimed that she was a Social Democrat.
 >
 > Incorrect as usual.
 >
 > /M

The capital letters are what make it incorrect. Not all
democrats are Democrats either.

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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pete_bayle

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Since: Dec 16, 2003
Posts: 290



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:54 pm
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Martha Bridegam <bridegam.TakeThisOut@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<40F03C44.D945C4F4.TakeThisOut@pacbell.net>...
 > Pete Bayle wrote:
 >
  > > Martha has always claimed that she was a Social Democrat.
 >
 > Incorrect as vsval.
 >
 > /M


I covld be incorrect, if the Clintonian emphasis is placed on
"always". If so my apologies.

On the other hand - an speaking trvthfvlly - yov did write this on
abgo on 2004-01-20 10:21:35 PST (as google says) in Av Revoir didn't
yov?

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://grovps.google.com/grovps?selm=400D724C.75F5B657%40pacbell.net&ovtpvt=gplain" target="_blank">http://grovps.google.com/grovps?selm=400D724C.75F5B657%40pac...l.net&o</a>

Pavl Stable wrote:

 > Rather than knocking svch a freqvent and entertaining poster as Robbie,
 > Martha covld perhaps examine her own posts a little more to see if she is
 > not exclvding those whose views do not agree with her own rather narrowly
 > defined (PC) orthodoxy.

Martha replied:

"I gvess then I'm an orthodox liberal plvrallist. I'm an orthodox
antiracist.
I'm an orthodox believer in democracy. I'm an orthodox reader of Camvs
and
Orwell and the U.S. Bill of Rights. I'm an orthodox non-Marxist social
democrat, and if that makes me some kind of a sinner or creep in yovr
book then
I can live with it."

To recap - "I'm an orthodox non-Marxist social democrat"

Now I am trying to vnderstand what that means. The split between the
Social Democrats and the left-Left (i.e. commvnists and USPD)
represents a fvndamental tvrning point in the birth of "orthodox
non-Marxist social democrat[s]" as a party. In fact the SPD had placed
reform above revolvtion for most of the late 19th centvry, with the
approval of Marx. I'm not svre where the non-Marxist form of Social
Democracy wovld have been, vnless it wovld have been anarchist, bvt
the anrachist weren't very social.

Now I admit I take yovr repetitive vse of the word "orthodox" as a
rhetorical (not to say dialectical Smile device.

In fact I'm not svre what "orthodox non-Marxist social democrat"
means. I admit that while I wovld like to know what it means to yov,
today or in Janvary or whenever yov became one, I am more interested
in trying to figvre ovt if it existed and what it meant in 1919, 1930,
etc.

That is to Orwell and the political argvment of his times.

Becavse it seem to me that those of vs cvrrent day Orwellians (the
standard posters to the old abgo), are all some version of the Social
Democratic - Liberal Democratic spectrvm as fovnd in 1919.

In England the Labor party had a very late birth, relative to the
other working class parties in Evrope, becavse they cooperated with
the liberals on reforms. IIRC they were the only party where the
general vnion was formed before the party rather than by the party.

So I admit I am vsing the German example of Social Democrat becavse
AFAIK that is the pvrest example at the time.

***

In any case it is clear to me that this history is central to
vnderstanding the politics of the 30s. I bet not many of vs know this
history very well if at all. For that reason I beleive a discvssion of
Social Democracy wovld be helpfvl in vnderstanding Orwell.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user285

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Since: Jul 10, 2004
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:22 am
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Pete Bayle <pete_bayle DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:

 > Martha has always claimed that she was a Social Democrat. For a long
 > time I thought I understood what that meant, in at least a vague way,
 > and thought I understood what it meant to Orwell. Turns out I didn't.
 >
 > It turns out that Social Democrats had and made difficult decisions in
 > difficult and chaotic times, against violent minorities. I wonder if
 > Social Democrats like Martha and Orwell would have stood with their
 > Social Democratic brothers and sisters, who by choosing order over
 > chaos created a constitutional republic in Geramnay in 1919.

<snip>
 >
 > The government that crushed the "revolution" after January 1919 was
 > largely an elected Social Democratic one.


The term Social Democrat has changed its contents several times over.

The Social Democratic parties that hold such significant power in
today's Europe are seveal generations removed from the social democrats
a hundred years ago.

The Norwegian labour party once followed Lenin into Komintern, it now
negotiates international free trade with it's equals.

--
jan bojer vindheim
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://vindheim.net" target="_blank">http://vindheim.net</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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pete_bayle

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Since: Dec 16, 2003
Posts: 290



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 12:49 pm
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jan.vindheim.DeleteThis@gmail.com (jan bojer vindheim) wrote in message news:<1ggqdv4.f8w8w6u4y06gN%jan.vindheim@gmail.com>...
 > Pete Bayle <pete_bayle.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
 >
  > > Martha has always claimed that she was a Social Democrat. For a long
  > > time I thought I understood what that meant, in at least a vague way,
  > > and thought I understood what it meant to Orwell. Turns out I didn't.
  > >
  > > It turns out that Social Democrats had and made difficult decisions in
  > > difficult and chaotic times, against violent minorities. I wonder if
  > > Social Democrats like Martha and Orwell would have stood with their
  > > Social Democratic brothers and sisters, who by choosing order over
  > > chaos created a constitutional republic in Geramnay in 1919.
 >
 > <snip>
  > >
  > > The government that crushed the "revolution" after January 1919 was
  > > largely an elected Social Democratic one.
 >
 >
 > The term Social Democrat has changed its contents several times over.
 >
 > The Social Democratic parties that hold such significant power in
 > today's Europe are seveal generations removed from the social democrats
 > a hundred years ago.
 >
 > The Norwegian labour party once followed Lenin into Komintern, it now
 > negotiates international free trade with it's equals.

Thanks, and I understand that - the changes.

And I know that those of us in the US don't have good reference points
for the term.

But what I am trying to understand and what I think would be valuable
and crucial for understanding Orwell is what the term meant in
Orwell's time and before, in it's various incarnations.

For example, there seems to be a different history in the UK and
Scandinavia versus Germany and also versus southern Europe.

(My facts - though I might not completely understand them - come from
"Forging Democracy: The History of the Left in Europe, 1850-2000" by
Geoff Eley, Oxford, 2002. Hobsbawm and Foner praise the book on the
back cover and the author admits that he is writing from the
perspective of the left, so this isn't a hostile account and in fact
an account that attempts to show the agitations of the left were
essential to fulfilling the goal of full democracy.)

For example:

In Norway there was cooperation between the Labor Party (NDP - Eley
uses Labor Party and Social Democratic PArty interchangbly at this
time), founded in 1887, and the farmer based Liberals Venstre party in
the early 1890s over the separation from Sweden which resulted in
"virtually winning universal manhood suffrage in 1898 for its pains".
That is two years before the founding of the British Labor Party in
1900. (p67)

I also think this cooperation was absent in Germany and the south,
where Anarachism - which had been driven from the mainstream SD
movement in 1872 by the victory of the parliamentary approach over
Bakunin's insurrectionary approach with Marx's approval and under his
direction - and Syndicalism were more popoluar than standard Social
Democracy.

It also seems true that the Norwegian was the only major Western or
Central European party to "partly" and "offically" participate in the
Zimmerwald movement - the movement during the First World War that
attempted to find a coherent middle path peace position between
right-wing social democracy who supported the war and Lenin's
"revoltuionary demand for a split". Zimmerwald was mostly the fringe
groups, which later split off. (p 130)

Many Scandinavian and other neutrals (Netherlands) had attempted to
mediate during the war. Perhaps Norway's support for Zimmerwald
suggests the move to the Komintern you point out.

Eley also claims that pre-1914 there were only 4 countries which had
achieved his strict defintion of democracy. New Zealand(1893),
Australia(1903), Finland(1906) and Norway(1913). He points out that if
you relax women's suffrage you can add Switzerland and France.

(Notice the claim of Norway achieving universal suffrage in 1913 and
virtual universal suffrage by 1898 is the author's point. I don't know
what the distinction is.)

What seems clear is that there were different levels of cooperation
between the Liberal bourgeiosie and the Social Democratic proletarians
in the various countries, which makes the class war rhetoric sound
different to different ears.

For the most part reform seems to have won the day over revolution
until the dislocation of the 1914-18. Therefore the argument of the
status of Orwell is an old argument that had continually marginalized
the more radical view - i.e. Orwell's opponents within the left - at
least until sometime in the 20s.

I should have know this because of the fact that the British Labor
Party - founded late in 1900 - actually shared power with the liberals
before the war and assumed power during the war under Lloyd George.

This is different than in France, where in repsonse to the Socialist
Alexandre Millerand joining a government formed to "save the republic"
(1899)in response to the Dreyfus Affair, and in fact getting major
refroms, there was a split, with Jaures supporting Millerand and
Gesuade the Marxist non-cooperation approach. (p 87)

The following link suggests the logic and history.

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://crummmountain.tripod.com/id73.htm" target="_blank">http://crummmountain.tripod.com/id73.htm</a>

The year 1889, being the centennial of the French revolution was not
only symbolic for French radicals, but for much of Europe's socialists
as well who saw the revolution as liberating France from feudalism and
ushering in a class consciousness which would later inspire socialism.
(Lerner, 1994) In honor of the storming of the Bastille, the two
major French radical groups, the Marxists and the Possibilists planned
two separate meetings in Paris for the 14th of July. The goal was to
create an international congress. The Marxists led by Guesde and
joined by the German Marxists held their meeting in the Salle
Petrelle. The Possibilists, lead by Dr. Paul Brousse met in the Rue
De Lancry. Members of the two groups were hardly attached to their
particular factions, as many had traveled back and forth between both
meetings. (Lichtheim, 1970) One of the central points of
contention amongst the French was the Possibilists willingness to
support the French Republic against the possibility of a coup by
conservative nationalist General Boulanger. The Marxists spurned the
idea of cooperating with the solidly bourgeois French Republic,
keeping their efforts on class struggle itself instead. The Marxists
cared little for the logic that a bourgeois French Republic would be
better than a military dictatorship, and refused to waste time and
energy to fight for one over the other. These tensions anticipated
the Dreyfus Affair which would rattle the French Socialist movement a
decade later. (Lichtheim, 1970) Eventually, Wilhelm Liebknecht from
the German SPD attempted to serve as mediator between the two rival
French factions in order to bring them together, but only seemed to
aggravate the situation. Fed up, Liebknecht and the Germans formally
endorsed the Guesdists, and attempted to isolate the Possibilists.
This was a result of the German SPD's influence in the international
socialist movement. (Niemeyer, 1966) Before long, the Marxists'
meeting in the Sal Petrelle became a multinational affair, attracting
socialist leaders from various countries, while support for the
Possibilists dwindled. With this victory, the Marxists announced
that their meeting was the founding congress of the Second
International; the heir to Marx's International Workingmen's
Association established several decades earlier in 1864.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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pete_bayle

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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:06 pm
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Martha Bridegam <mabjo.DeleteThis@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<40F03D81.FE12278F.DeleteThis@pacbell.net>...
 > Martha Bridegam wrote:
 >
  > > Pete Bayle wrote:
  > >
   > > > Martha has always claimed that she was a Social Democrat.
  > >
  > > Incorrect as usual.
  > >
  > > /M
 >
 > The capital letters are what make it incorrect. Not all
 > democrats are Democrats either.
 >
 > /M

Thanks for the clarification about the capitalization. I didn't catch
that.

I obviously didn't think you had moved to Germany and I think I know
that there are no Social Democrats in SF.

Still, to say you ware a social democrat - a believer in social
democracy - must have some historical meaning.

I admit that I often get confused. Social seems to be used as both
fellow-feeling belief in the group - maybe what we might call
communitarians today - and those who use it to mean taking over the
economy or totally restrucuring the society. I realize this is vague.

My point is I don't know what you mean. When I read the old debates I
consider myself (all of us really?) a liberal bourgeois - or maybe a
radical liberal - someone who shares the reformist goals of the early
social democrats but who places limits, especially after the reforms
were achieved. But who has no truck with the supporters of revolution.
For a long time, especially in Britain these groups were aligned.

*** gender aside

Though you might be interested to know, if you don't know it already,
of the battles on gender between the Social Democrats and the
bourgeious suffrage movement. And the different strategies they took.
Very interesting.

It was a tough choice. Ought women to fight for "equal" rights -
including women in the current system where they could vote under the
same requirements as men - i.e. before all men - or "universal
suffrage" which would give all men the vote but might not give women
the vote. There was a serious split on this issue. My source, Eley,
claims this set back the movement until the 60s.

***

What do you mean by social democrat, small s small d? I googled to see
if you had specified it before and I couldn't find it. Is there a link
you remember?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user285

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Since: Jul 10, 2004
Posts: 15



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Do you know who are the Social Democrats? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Pete Bayle <pete_bayle.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:

 > jan.vindheim.TakeThisOut@gmail.com (jan bojer vindheim) wrote:

  > > The term Social Democrat has changed its contents several times over.
  > >
  > > The Social Democratic parties that hold such significant power in
  > > today's Europe are seveal generations removed from the social democrats
  > > a hundred years ago.
  > >
  > > The Norwegian labour party once followed Lenin into Komintern, it now
  > > negotiates international free trade with it's equals.
 >
 > Thanks, and I understand that - the changes.
 >
 > And I know that those of us in the US don't have good reference points
 > for the term.
 >
 > But what I am trying to understand and what I think would be valuable
 > and crucial for understanding Orwell is what the term meant in
 > Orwell's time and before, in it's various incarnations.

the term Social democrat is tricky. In most of Europe it signifies the
majority parties of the labor movement, parties that shed their
revolutionary rhetoric and accepted parliamentary democracy. In the
multiparty parliaments of Scandinavia such parties held working
majorities from the mid1930s and well into the 1970s.

<snip!>

 > It also seems true that the Norwegian was the only major Western or
 > Central European party to "partly" and "offically" participate in the
 > Zimmerwald movement - the movement during the First World War that
 > attempted to find a coherent middle path peace position between
 > right-wing social democracy who supported the war and Lenin's
 > "revolutionary demand for a split". Zimmerwald was mostly the fringe
 > groups, which later split off. (p 130)
 >
 > Many Scandinavian and other neutrals (Netherlands) had attempted to
 > mediate during the war. Perhaps Norway's support for Zimmerwald
 > suggests the move to the Komintern you point out.

The Norwegian labour Party was taken over by a group with a
revolutionary syndicalist-like ideology ("the labour opposition") in
1911. Leader of this group was Martin Tranmael who had experience from
the IWW in the the US. Under his guidance the party moved strongly to
the left, and alone among western social democratic parties joined the
Comintern, which led to a rightwing split of "Social Democrats". When
the DNA left the Cominterna few years later (as word of the reality in
the worker's paradise leaked out) th alarge group split to form the
Communist Party, whereupon Labour reabsorbed the Social democrats and
went on the form two goevrments before the German inavsion in 1940.
 >
 > Eley also claims that pre-1914 there were only 4 countries which had
 > achieved his strict defintion of democracy. New Zealand(1893),
 > Australia(1903), Finland(1906) and Norway(1913). He points out that if
 > you relax women's suffrage you can add Switzerland and France.
 >
 > (Notice the claim of Norway achieving universal suffrage in 1913 and
 > virtual universal suffrage by 1898 is the author's point. I don't know
 > what the distinction is.)

The male voter lost its tie to tax payment in 1898, but women did not
get the vote unitl 1913.


 > What seems clear is that there were different levels of cooperation
 > between the Liberal bourgeiosie and the Social Democratic proletarians
 > in the various countries, which makes the class war rhetoric sound
 > different to different ears.
 >
 > For the most part reform seems to have won the day over revolution
 > until the dislocation of the 1914-18. Therefore the argument of the
 > status of Orwell is an old argument that had continually marginalized
 > the more radical view - i.e. Orwell's opponents within the left - at
 > least until sometime in the 20s.

The point is that even before 1900 Social Democrat could mean several
diffent things. The marxist revolutionary tendencies used the label
social democrat: The russian social democrats after 1900 split in two
factions, bolsheviks and mensheviks.

The label "communist" later came to signify parties and groups that
kept their revolutionary ideology, while the mainstream labour parties
took along the label "social democrat" into the cosy atmosphere of
multiparty parlaments.

In the 1920s it was still possible to consider yourself a social
democrat while scorning the process of "petit borugeois
parliamentarianism", During the 1930s this became impossible, as the
revolutionaries adapted the label "communist" and the reformists the
label "Social democrat".

However even today revolutionaries of various kinds prefer to work
within the reformist social democrat parties, especially in the UK with
its antiquated twoparty system. The Labour Party regularly runs purges
againts triskyites and other entrists.

Mosty socail democratic parties keep the structure and discipline that
was established in their revolutionary youth, which makes such purges
possible.

--
jan bojer vindheim
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://vindheim.net" target="_blank">http://vindheim.net</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user285

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Since: Jul 10, 2004
Posts: 15



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Do you know who are the Social Democrats? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Pete Bayle <pete_bayle DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:

 > jan.vindheim DeleteThis @gmail.com (jan bojer vindheim) wrote:

  > > The term Social Democrat has changed its contents several times over.
  > >
  > > The Social Democratic parties that hold such significant power in
  > > today's Europe are seveal generations removed from the social democrats
  > > a hundred years ago.
  > >
  > > The Norwegian labour party once followed Lenin into Komintern, it now
  > > negotiates international free trade with it's equals.
 >
 > Thanks, and I understand that - the changes.
 >
 > And I know that those of us in the US don't have good reference points
 > for the term.
 >
 > But what I am trying to understand and what I think would be valuable
 > and crucial for understanding Orwell is what the term meant in
 > Orwell's time and before, in it's various incarnations.

The term Social Democrat is tricky. In most of Europe it signifies the
majority parties of the labour movement, parties that shed their
revolutionary rhetoric and accepted parliamentary democracy. In the
multiparty parliaments of Scandinavia such parties held working
majorities from the mid 1930s and well into the 1970s.

<snip!>

 > It also seems true that the Norwegian was the only major Western or
 > Central European party to "partly" and "offically" participate in the
 > Zimmerwald movement - the movement during the First World War that
 > attempted to find a coherent middle path peace position between
 > right-wing social democracy who supported the war and Lenin's
 > "revolutionary demand for a split". Zimmerwald was mostly the fringe
 > groups, which later split off. (p 130)
 >
 > Many Scandinavian and other neutrals (Netherlands) had attempted to
 > mediate during the war. Perhaps Norway's support for Zimmerwald
 > suggests the move to the Komintern you point out.

The Norwegian Labour Party (DNA) was taken over by a group with a
revolutionary syndicalist-like ideology ("the labour opposition") in
1911. Leader of this group was Martin Tranmael who had experience from
the IWW in the US. Under his guidance the party moved strongly to
the left, and alone among western social democratic parties joined the
Comintern, which led to a rightwing splitoff of "Social Democrats". When
the DNA left the Comintern a few years later (as word of the reality in
the worker's paradise leaked out) a large group split off to form the
Communist Party, whereupon Labour reabsorbed the Social democrats and
went on the form two governments before the German inavsion in 1940, and
several more with a large majority, after 1945.
 >
 > Eley also claims that pre-1914 there were only 4 countries which had
 > achieved his strict defintion of democracy. New Zealand(1893),
 > Australia(1903), Finland(1906) and Norway(1913). He points out that if
 > you relax women's suffrage you can add Switzerland and France.
 >
 > (Notice the claim of Norway achieving universal suffrage in 1913 and
 > virtual universal suffrage by 1898 is the author's point. I don't know
 > what the distinction is.)

The male vote lost its tie to a minimum tax payment in 1898, but women
did not get the vote until 1913.


 > What seems clear is that there were different levels of cooperation
 > between the Liberal bourgeiosie and the Social Democratic proletarians
 > in the various countries, which makes the class war rhetoric sound
 > different to different ears.
 >
 > For the most part reform seems to have won the day over revolution
 > until the dislocation of the 1914-18. Therefore the argument of the
 > status of Orwell is an old argument that had continually marginalized
 > the more radical view - i.e. Orwell's opponents within the left - at
 > least until sometime in the 20s.

The point is that even before 1900 Social Democrat could mean several
diffent things. The marxist revolutionary tendencies used the label
social democrat: The russian social democrats after 1900 split in two
factions, bolsheviks and mensheviks.

The label "communist" later came to signify parties and groups that
kept their revolutionary ideology, while the mainstream labour parties
took along the label "social democrat" into the cosy atmosphere of
multiparty parlaments.

In the 1920s it was still possible to consider yourself a social
democrat while scorning the "petit borugeois
parliamentarianist illusions", During the 1930s this became impossible,
as the revolutionaries adapted the label "communist" and the reformists
took the label "Social democrat".

However even today revolutionaries of various kinds prefer to work
within the reformist social democrat parties, especially in the UK with
its antiquated two-party system. The Labour Party regularly runs purges
againts trotskyites and other entrists.

Most social democratic parties keep the structure and discipline that
was established in their revolutionary youth, which makes such purges
possible.

--
jan bojer vindheim
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://vindheim.net" target="_blank">http://vindheim.net</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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moyehoist

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Since: Mar 10, 2004
Posts: 315



(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:05 am
Post subject: Re: Do you know who are the Social Democrats? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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  >> Pete Bayle wrote:
  >>
   >> > Martha has always claimed that she was a Social Democrat.
  >>
  >> Incorrect as usual.
  >>
  >> /M
 >
 >The capital letters are what make it incorrect. Not all
 >democrats are Democrats either.
 >
 >/M
 >


Martha,



You're not kidding anyone.


Marth wrote:
"Explain it how you will, armchair Marxists are better than armchair fascists.
We *do* have all the good songs, or most of them. The extreme right has had
Celine and Pound and Hamsun, but who else?

(OK, ok, I know, Godwin's Law again.)

 >
 >
 > Why is it so difficult to get people to take Marxist-Leninism as seriously
 > as Fascism as a criminal belief system, when it has been directly
 > responsible for at least as many deaths in the last hundred years?

First of all, fascism has no redeeming features but Marxism-Leninism, for all
its many mistakes, has had a lot of decent adherents who have been able to see
the good in it. Boxer the horse represents a real type of hardworking
goodhearted believer in socialism or communism. You can't imagine Boxer the
horse trying hard to be a good fascist.

Maybe more to the point, there's Arendt on the notion that in a totalitarian
movement/state, actual ideology doesn't matter any more: what matters is
membership, enthusiasm, obedience, forward movement towards an arbitrary and
always receding goal. In a totalitarian society, people who pay attention to
the fine points of ideology, even in an attempt to become better members of
whatever Party is in control, sooner or later get treated as suspect simply
because having one's own ideas about the meaning of the Holy Text (whatever it
is) is a form of independent thinking that could lead one into disagreement
with the leadership. Orwell understood this -- it's expressed in the character
of Syme, who talks too intelligently about the purposes of the new Newspeak
Dictionary and therefore is on his way to being arrested.

While I'm not a Marxist myself, I tend to think Marxism is OK so long as 1) it
doesn't pay and 2) it involves exploration and questioning of the doctrine
rather than blind belief."


bmp<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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pete_bayle

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Since: Dec 16, 2003
Posts: 290



(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:03 pm
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jan.vindheim.TakeThisOut@gmail.com (jan bojer vindheim) wrote in message news:<1ggrya7.1hf88m713r3veoN%jan.vindheim@gmail.com>...


Thanks for the info. It helped.

 > The point is that even before 1900 Social Democrat covld mean several
 > diffent things. The marxist revolvtionary tendencies vsed the label
 > social democrat: The rvssian social democrats after 1900 split in two
 > factions, bolsheviks and mensheviks.
 >
 > The label "commvnist" later came to signify parties and grovps that
 > kept their revolvtionary ideology, while the mainstream labovr parties
 > took along the label "social democrat" into the cosy atmosphere of
 > mvltiparty parlaments.
 >

I agree bvt according to my sovrces the idea as pvshed by Marx (note
that I do NOT mean Marxism) was to have a centralized party that wovld
fight in parliaments for the socialists goals. For the most part this
was trve vntil abovt 1900 allowing for the fact that the anrachist
were kicked ovt. I don't think the syndicalists ever called themselves
social democrats did they?

It is also trve that the menshiviks and the social revolvtionaries in
the Soviet Union contivned to svpport the mainstream social democrats
and oppose Lenin and his pals IIRC.


 > In the 1920s it was still possible to consider yovrself a social
 > democrat while scorning the process of "petit borvgeois
 > parliamentarianism", Dvring the 1930s this became impossible, as the
 > revolvtionaries adapted the label "commvnist" and the reformists the
 > label "Social democrat".
 >

Exactly. This is the process I am interested in. It seems that mvch of
the tension, at least ideologically mvst have been derived from the
battles in Germany over the svpression of the revolvtion in 1919,
which seems to have prodvced an irrevocable split on the left, even if
that didn't mean that the Social Democrats wovld svpport the liberals
or other centrist parties.

Does anyone know abovt how these events wovld have been recieved in
England by the Labor Party as well as others on the left?

Also, are yov svre the it took to the 30s for the label commvnism to
be adopted? That seems a little late to me.

In the US everything seemed so blvrred, at least in the general
discovrse. I had heard that no one was more hostile to the New Left's
embrace of commvnism in the early sixites than the old left labor
people, presvmably becavse they had had their own movement sabotaged
so often. I don't know when the split happened in the US.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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pete_bayle

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Since: Dec 16, 2003
Posts: 290



(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:13 pm
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moyehoist.DeleteThis@aol.com (Moyehoist) wrote in message news:<20040711210555.26478.00001820.DeleteThis@mb-m03.aol.com>...

 > Martha wrote:

  > > Why is it so difficult to get people to take Marxist-Leninism as seriously
  > > as Fascism as a criminal belief system, when it has been directly
  > > responsible for at least as many deaths in the last hundred years?
 >
 > First of all, fascism has no redeeming features but Marxism-Leninism, for all
 > its many mistakes, has had a lot of decent adherents who have been able to see
 > the good in it.

I don't really care who worte the above, but I think the answer is
interesting and mistaken.

Seems to me that fascism and Marxism-Leninism both share things that
most people, above all their adheretns, consider good. At least two
come to mind.

A contempt for the disorder of capitalism.

A contempt for the capitalist-bourgeois liberal emphasis on
individualism.

It seems to me that both share an emphasis on order and community -
both goods - but goods that are driven to extremes.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user285

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Since: Jul 10, 2004
Posts: 15



(Msg. 13) Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:32 pm
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Pete Bayle <pete_bayle.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

 > jan.vindheim.RemoveThis@gmail.com (jan bojer vindheim) wrote

  > > In the 1920s it was still possible to consider yovrself a social
  > > democrat while scorning the process of "petit borvgeois
  > > parliamentarianism", Dvring the 1930s this became impossible, as the
  > > revolvtionaries adapted the label "commvnist" and the reformists the
  > > label "Social democrat".
  > >
 >
 > Exactly. This is the process I am interested in. It seems that mvch of
 > the tension, at least ideologically mvst have been derived from the
 > battles in Germany over the svpression of the revolvtion in 1919,
 > which seems to have prodvced an irrevocable split on the left, even if
 > that didn't mean that the Social Democrats wovld svpport the liberals
 > or other centrist parties.
 >
 > Does anyone know abovt how these events wovld have been recieved in
 > England by the Labor Party as well as others on the left?
 >
 > Also, are yov svre the it took to the 30s for the label commvnism to
 > be adopted? That seems a little late to me.

I have the Norwegian experience in mind. The Norwegian Labovr Party
overwhelmingly accepted Lenin's "Moscow theses" in 1921. These theses
were the ideological fovndation of the komintern. They claimed the class
strvggle necessitateed the organization of the working class avantgvard
(ie the Party) according to the principles of "dmocratic centralism".
All reformists mvst be removed from inflvential positions in working
class organizations. And the working class party mvst vse the name
"commvnist".

However even thovgh the Norwegian party accepted the tehsis at a general
conference, there was little will to apply the principles of "democratic
entralism" and the name was never changde from "the Norwegian Labovr
Party" to "the Norwegian Commvnist party". In 1923 there was a dramatic
break with Moscow, and a new Commvnist aprty formed by a sizeable
minority.

So the definiton of the terms commvnist vs social democrat seems to
have been cemented by 1920.


one of the points of disagreement between the social democrat and the
commvnist party model concerns the role of trade vnions. The Norwegian
DNA like the British Labovr Party had labovr vnions directly affiliated,
something the Moscow modeled explicitly banned.
--
jan bojer vindheim
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pete_bayle

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Since: Dec 16, 2003
Posts: 290



(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:32 pm
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jan.vindheim RemoveThis @gmail.com (jan bojer vindheim) wrote in message news:<1ggv0k6.n318w1931z6sN%jan.vindheim@gmail.com>...
> Pete Bayle <pete_bayle RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > jan.vindheim RemoveThis @gmail.com (jan bojer vindheim) wrote
>
> > > In the 1920s it was still possible to consider yourself a social
> > > democrat while scorning the process of "petit borugeois
> > > parliamentarianism", During the 1930s this became impossible, as the
> > > revolutionaries adapted the label "communist" and the reformists the
> > > label "Social democrat".
> > >
> >
> > Exactly. This is the process I am interested in. It seems that much of
> > the tension, at least ideologically must have been derived from the
> > battles in Germany over the supression of the revolution in 1919,
> > which seems to have produced an irrevocable split on the left, even if
> > that didn't mean that the Social Democrats would support the liberals
> > or other centrist parties.
> >
> > Does anyone know about how these events would have been recieved in
> > England by the Labor Party as well as others on the left?
> >
> > Also, are you sure the it took to the 30s for the label communism to
> > be adopted? That seems a little late to me.
>
> I have the Norwegian experience in mind. The Norwegian Labour Party
> overwhelmingly accepted Lenin's "Moscow theses" in 1921. These theses
> were the ideological foundation of the komintern. They claimed the class
> struggle necessitateed the organization of the working class avantguard
> (ie the Party) according to the principles of "dmocratic centralism".
> All reformists must be removed from influential positions in working
> class organizations. And the working class party must use the name
> "communist".
>
> However even though the Norwegian party accepted the tehsis at a general
> conference, there was little will to apply the principles of "democratic
> entralism" and the name was never changde from "the Norwegian Labour
> Party" to "the Norwegian Communist party". In 1923 there was a dramatic
> break with Moscow, and a new Communist aprty formed by a sizeable
> minority.
>
> So the definiton of the terms communist vs social democrat seems to
> have been cemented by 1920.
>
>
> one of the points of disagreement between the social democrat and the
> communist party model concerns the role of trade unions. The Norwegian
> DNA like the British Labour Party had labour unions directly affiliated,
> something the Moscow modeled explicitly banned.

That agrees with what I've read.

The "vanguardism" had been present but driven out in the early days
and then re-emerged with communism. It was given up in favor of a mass
centralized party - i.e. the Social Democratics. Most Social
Democratic Parties formed the first labor unions as part of their
program. The British was one of the few case where it was reversed.

Part of the problem was that the "centralization" was so successful
that there was a loss of the "social" and local democracy. I believe
that was one of the complaints about the Social Democrats it Germany
after 1900.

Apparently once Lenin realized that there was no chance of revolution
occurring in the rest of Europe - and I think he realized this early
and actually discouraged the Sparticists in Germany - he felt the only
chance was for a disciplined cadre to set the stage for the future.
The sources I read widely claim that the revolution in Germany lacked
a certain seriousness and especially planning and discipline - i.e. no
Lenin or Trotsky. Particularly in Munish - where it seemed surreal.

And once the Social Democrats crushed the revolution the first time
(in Berlin and Munich), then called on the left ot crush the military
coup in Berlin (Kapp Putsch), they had to call on the military again
to crush the left one more time in the Ruhr.

Given this tortured history it isn't suprising that the left split. As
far as I am aware nothing like this happened in Scandinavia or the UK
for that matter, approaching this level of bitterness.

I wonder why the trade unions were considered suspect. Was it that
there were class differences between union members and the communist
cadre? Or did they just consider refomist goals suspect?
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user285

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Since: Jul 10, 2004
Posts: 15



(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:27 pm
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Pete Bayle <pete_bayle.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> jan.vindheim.DeleteThis@gmail.com (jan bojer vindheim) wrote

> > one of the points of disagreement between the social democrat and the
> > communist party model concerns the role of trade unions. The Norwegian
> > DNA like the British Labour Party had labour unions directly affiliated,
> > something the Moscow modeled explicitly banned.
>
> That agrees with what I've read.
>
> The "vanguardism" had been present but driven out in the early days
> and then re-emerged with communism. It was given up in favor of a mass
> centralized party - i.e. the Social Democratics. Most Social
> Democratic Parties formed the first labor unions as part of their
> program. The British was one of the few case where it was reversed.

Actually the communist parties also saw them selves as mass parties, and
centralized ones at that.
>
> Part of the problem was that the "centralization" was so successful
> that there was a loss of the "social" and local democracy. I believe
> that was one of the complaints about the Social Democrats it Germany
> after 1900.

And indeed it still is. The orgnizational structures of "social
democracy" and "communism" ar deeply similar

> Apparently once Lenin realized that there was no chance of revolution
> occurring in the rest of Europe - and I think he realized this early
> and actually discouraged the Sparticists in Germany - he felt the only
> chance was for a disciplined cadre to set the stage for the future.

The Spatacists denounced the leninist party model, and were a constant
soruce of friction within the broader revolutionary movement. The POUM,
with which Orwell was affiliated in Spain, belonged to the same
tradition.

> The sources I read widely claim that the revolution in Germany lacked
> a certain seriousness and especially planning and discipline - i.e. no
> Lenin or Trotsky. Particularly in Munish - where it seemed surreal.

Leninism demands obedience. The Munich revolution was controlled by
leninists but they had to accomodate other revolutionary tendencies too,
which is why the anarchist Gustav Landauer was Minister of Culture in
the revolutionary Government. Landauer and his followers had a
different critique of leninism from that presented by the Spartacists,
but both groups were suspicious fo the apocalytpic visons of Marxism.
Landauer refused to consider any revolution as the "end of history".

> And once the Social Democrats crushed the revolution the first time
> (in Berlin and Munich), then called on the left ot crush the military
> coup in Berlin (Kapp Putsch), they had to call on the military again
> to crush the left one more time in the Ruhr.

Your analysis places social democracy outside the lef