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Orwell - Who follows his take on Socialism ?

 
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madim

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Since: Aug 05, 2003
Posts: 1



(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:04 pm
Post subject: Orwell - Who follows his take on Socialism ?
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I really enjoyed a book called "Orwell and the Left" by
Professor Alex Zwerdling. (Don't laugh, it's a LOT more fun than those
books on Euro Communism written in the 1970s!)

It contains a chapter called "Socialism and Pessimism" which is
nothing less than a real straight-forward look at the human emotions
which configure activism or "giving up" and talks about the limits of
institutional embodiment of humane values.

Read after reading H. G. Wells "A Mind at the End of its Tether" and
you see how bleak the perspective on actually succeeding and
manufacturing a descent society looked then to various socialists, and
now days it looks that way even more.

I had this same struggle with a decade spend practicing Buddhism which
traditionally says "tranform yourself and the world will automagically
reflect this in the aggregate",...how can you NOT try to do something
in a group effort?....yet human nature seems to transmute collective
social efforts into "Here comes the new boss...same as the old boss."

Does it really come down to just working locally and hoping the human
race matures in time...because efforts to accellerate the process in a
large scale always produces large scale stuctures with inherant
tyrannical momentums? (Note how huge the anti Iraq War movement in the
US and the Seed and Water Ant-Privatization Movements in India
are...and how little they actually modulate Social Policy.

Could the United States be a Totalitarian State that breeds Humans that
don't need Liberty the way Scientists can breed cows without horns?

"Orwell: Socialism vs. Pessimism," The New Review (London), 1 (1974),
5-17. - also ontained in:
Orwell and the Left (New Haven and London: Yale University Press, 1974;
second edition, 1978)

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allport

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Since: Jun 27, 2003
Posts: 241



(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2003 11:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Orwell - Who follows his take on Socialism ? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Madimi" <madim.RemoveThis@madimi.com> wrote in message
news:050820031604308253%madim@madimi.com...

 > Could the United States be a Totalitarian State that breeds Humans that
 > don't need Liberty the way Scientists can breed cows without horns?

Well, first of all, the United States may be many things today, not all of
them very attractive, but it is not a totalitarian state; or at least, not
in any sense that someone like Hannah Arendt would have understood that
term.

Second, you need to clarify what you mean by 'liberty', which I doubt is
going to be as simple a task as you might think. Both Right and Left can
plausibly claim that liberty is their guiding principle, but they have
irreconcilable notions of what it means and the conclusions it demands. It's
something we all say or think we want, but we don't seem to be able to agree
much on what it represents. Therein lies the problem.

Alan.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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haynongunahora

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Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 69



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2003 1:22 pm
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"Alan Allport" <allport DeleteThis @sasdot.upenndot.edu> wrote in message
news:bgpiq6$cbc9$1@netnews.upenn.edu...
 > "Madimi" <madim DeleteThis @madimi.com> wrote in message
 > news:050820031604308253%madim@madimi.com...
 >
  > > Could the United States be a Totalitarian State that breeds Humans
that
  > > don't need Liberty the way Scientists can breed cows without
horns?
 >
 > Well, first of all, the United States may be many things today, not
all of
 > them very attractive, but it is not a totalitarian state; or at
least, not
 > in any sense that someone like Hannah Arendt would have understood
that
 > term.
 >
 > Second, you need to clarify what you mean by 'liberty', which I
doubt is
 > going to be as simple a task as you might think. Both Right and Left
can
 > plausibly claim that liberty is their guiding principle, but they
have
 > irreconcilable notions of what it means and the conclusions it
demands. It's
 > something we all say or think we want, but we don't seem to be able
to agree
 > much on what it represents. Therein lies the problem.
 >
 > Alan.
 >

Adjective: totalitarian
1. Characterized by a government in which the political authority
exercises absolute and centralized control
2. Of or relating to the principles of totalitarianism according to
which the state regulates every realm of life
[WordWeb.info]

By these definitions, using "absolute and every," no state could ever
be called totalitarian as it is impossible (nevermind incredibly
tedious or counter-productive) to exercise that degree of control.



I'd suggest to you that the corporate capitalist state is a
totalitarian state because you are forced to participate in its system
unless you are born independently wealthy. (Assuming, of course, that
"suicide" or suicide is an irrational choice for the healthy.)

My definition of a totalitarian state is one in which you are forced
(strongly coerced) to participate in its system/culture/myths. Once
all the food was "locked up", who was free?

Hay<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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allport

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Since: Jun 27, 2003
Posts: 241



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2003 3:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Orwell - Who follows his take on Socialism ? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Hay Nongunahora" <haynongunahora.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vja4fvcnmrbq9f@corp.supernews.com...

 > Adjective: totalitarian
 > 1. Characterized by a government in which the political authority
 > exercises absolute and centralized control
 > 2. Of or relating to the principles of totalitarianism according to
 > which the state regulates every realm of life
 > [WordWeb.info]
 >
 > By these definitions, using "absolute and every," no state could ever
 > be called totalitarian as it is impossible (nevermind incredibly
 > tedious or counter-productive) to exercise that degree of control.

I don't believe Hannah Arendt wrote WorldWeb.info, and in the absence of
information to the contrary I'll stick with her perfectly fine working
definition.

Alan.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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h_sundt

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Since: Aug 09, 2003
Posts: 4



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:14 am
Post subject: Re: Orwell said this about Totalitarianism [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"One does not need to live in a Totalitarian State to be inflvenced by
Totalitarianism"

Mvssolini said (rovghly qvoting here): " Fascism is the vnion of the
coprporate powers of manvfactvring and militarism"

Remember, if we can as a people only make decisions abovt those things
that don't really matter, (being concidered Consvmers rather than
Citizens), then Totalitarianism in choices by an Elite in those matters
that DO matter ...is effectively a Totalitarian State with enovgh
economic svccess to spoil and shelter the Upper middle Class.

Hal
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farouk

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Since: Jul 25, 2003
Posts: 19



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:00 pm
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"Hay Nongunahora" <haynongunahora.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vja4fvcnmrbq9f@corp.supernews.com...
 >
 > "Alan Allport" <allport.TakeThisOut@sasdot.upenndot.edu> wrote in message
 > news:bgpiq6$cbc9$1@netnews.upenn.edu...
  > > "Madimi" <madim.TakeThisOut@madimi.com> wrote in message
  > > news:050820031604308253%madim@madimi.com...
  > >
   > > > Could the United States be a Totalitarian State that breeds Humans
 > that
   > > > don't need Liberty the way Scientists can breed cows without
 > horns?
  > >
  > > Well, first of all, the United States may be many things today, not
 > all of
  > > them very attractive, but it is not a totalitarian state; or at
 > least, not
  > > in any sense that someone like Hannah Arendt would have understood
 > that
  > > term.
  > >
  > > Second, you need to clarify what you mean by 'liberty', which I
 > doubt is
  > > going to be as simple a task as you might think. Both Right and Left
 > can
  > > plausibly claim that liberty is their guiding principle, but they
 > have
  > > irreconcilable notions of what it means and the conclusions it
 > demands. It's
  > > something we all say or think we want, but we don't seem to be able
 > to agree
  > > much on what it represents. Therein lies the problem.
  > >
  > > Alan.
  > >
 >
 > Adjective: totalitarian
 > 1. Characterized by a government in which the political authority
 > exercises absolute and centralized control
 > 2. Of or relating to the principles of totalitarianism according to
 > which the state regulates every realm of life
 > [WordWeb.info]
 >
 > By these definitions, using "absolute and every," no state could ever
 > be called totalitarian as it is impossible (nevermind incredibly
 > tedious or counter-productive) to exercise that degree of control.
 >
 >
 >
 > I'd suggest to you that the corporate capitalist state is a
 > totalitarian state because you are forced to participate in its system
 > unless you are born independently wealthy. (Assuming, of course, that
 > "suicide" or suicide is an irrational choice for the healthy.)
 >
 > My definition of a totalitarian state is one in which you are forced
 > (strongly coerced) to participate in its system/culture/myths. Once
 > all the food was "locked up", who was free?
 >
 > Hay
 >
 >
You may as well complain that you were toilet-trained. What you can dispute
is whether it was decent of your parents to force you to use a backyard
latrine while they took advantage of the perfectly sharable indoor
amenities.

A system wherein the rich and powerful manipulate the law and exploit the
lesser masses in order to maintain their gifts is not a system. It's life
on earth.

The Western constitutional democracies are not totalitarian. The state may
regulate human intercourse in ways that insure the rich get richer and the
poor get poorer, but it does not attempt to harness all human activity in a
drive towards an imagined historic destiny.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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haynongunahora

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Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 69



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Orwell - Who follows his take on Socialism ? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Alan Allport" <allport.TakeThisOut@sasdot.upenndot.edu> wrote in message
news:bh36d4$ss5$1@netnews.upenn.edu...
 > "Hay Nongunahora" <haynongunahora.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
 > news:vja4fvcnmrbq9f@corp.supernews.com...
 >
  > > Adjective: totalitarian
  > > 1. Characterized by a government in which the political authority
  > > exercises absolute and centralized control
  > > 2. Of or relating to the principles of totalitarianism according
to
  > > which the state regulates every realm of life
  > > [WordWeb.info]
  > >
  > > By these definitions, using "absolute and every," no state could
ever
  > > be called totalitarian as it is impossible (nevermind incredibly
  > > tedious or counter-productive) to exercise that degree of control.
 >
 > I don't believe Hannah Arendt wrote WorldWeb.info, and in the
absence of
 > information to the contrary I'll stick with her perfectly fine
working
 > definition.
 >
 > Alan.
 >

That was WordWeb. I didn't suggest it was the stone tablets merely a
start for looking at definitions of terms. Perhaps you wouldn;t mind
citing Arendt's?

BTW WordWeb Pro is a handy inexpensive, expandable dictionary(+, e.g.
la aortal LPN is an anagram of your name) available at a hotkey or
tray in Windows. There is also a freeware version available.
wordweb.info is the website.

So what'll it be Alan. Will you define your terms?

Hay<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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allport

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Since: Jun 27, 2003
Posts: 241



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:45 pm
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"Hay Nongunahora" <haynongunahora DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vjcmt4rtqllu84@corp.supernews.com...

 > So what'll it be Alan.

Sweet sherry, please. Arendt is explained (sort of) at
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/arendthtml/essayb1.html" target="_blank">http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/arendthtml/essayb1.html</a>

Alan.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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h_sundt

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Since: Aug 09, 2003
Posts: 4



(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:37 am
Post subject: Re: Orwell on Totalitarianism as a State of Experience [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Try to set aside the inherited Marxist and social-structuralist
definitions of Totalitarianism and remember that first in "Spike" and
then "Down and Out" and "Pier" Orwell was responding to the Lived
Effects of socially sanctioned inequity and loss of liberty.

In fact he would hearily agree with the idea that both Master and Slave
or foreshorted by twisted social relations.

All you have to do is control access to information and manufacture
that onformation to rob people of equality and freedom.

BESIDEs, there IS a Vision to US Totalitarianism.

What is "Total Information Awareness"?

They can see us, we can't see them. We are Naked, yet even Economic
Conferences are National Security Secrets.

And for a game plan for the Purpetual War needed to keep the USA in a
perminiant State of Emegency under the War Powers Acts....

Try pursuing:

"THE GRAND CHESSBOARD - American Primacy And It's Geostrategic
Imperatives," Zbigniew Brzezinski, Basic Books, 1997.

These are the very first words in the book: "Ever since the continents
started interacting politically, some five hundred years ago, Eurasia
has been the center of world power."- p. xiii.æ Eurasia is all of the
territory east of Germany and Poland, stretching all the way through
Russia and China to the Pacific Ocean. It includes the Middle East and
most of the Indian subcontinent. The key to controlling Eurasia, says
Brzezinski, is controlling the Central Asian Republics.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/zbig.html
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haynongunahora

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Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 69



(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 5:18 pm
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"Alan Allport" <allport RemoveThis @sasdot.upenndot.edu> wrote in message
news:bh5pa1$1gbt$1@netnews.upenn.edu...
 > "Hay Nongunahora" <haynongunahora RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
 > news:vjcmt4rtqllu84@corp.supernews.com...
 >
  > > So what'll it be Alan.
 >
 > Sweet sherry, please. Arendt is explained (sort of) at
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/arendthtml/essayb1.html</font" target="_blank">http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/arendthtml/essayb1.html</font</a>>
 >
 > Alan.
 >

"Totalitarianism has been identified by many writers as a ruthless,
brutal, and, thanks to modern technology, potent form of political
tyranny whose ambitions for world domination are unlimited.
Disseminating propaganda derived from an ideology through the media of
mass communication, totalitarianism relies on mass support. It crushes
whoever and whatever stands in its way by means of terror and proceeds
to a total reconstruction of the society it displaces.

Such achievements require total one-party governmental control and
tremendous human sacrifice; the elimination of free choice and
individuality; the politicization of the private sphere, including
that of the family; and the denial of any notion of the universality
of human rights. In diverse areas of the world where political freedom
and open societies have been virtually unknown or untried,
totalitarian methods have been seen to exert an ongoing attraction for
local elites, warlords, and rebels."


Delivered from that site with your glass of sherry.

Fairly accurate description of the behavior of the Bush Administration
and its supporters, neocon to Neanderthal, although Arendt certainly
was not aware of how far military technology would progress and how
one country might surpass all others in its accumulation and use.

Hay<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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allport

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Since: Jun 27, 2003
Posts: 241



(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 6:38 pm
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"Hay Nongunahora" <haynongunahora.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vjfr1om25arl6c@corp.supernews.com...

 > Fairly accurate description of the behavior of the Bush Administration
 > and its supporters

If you say so. I think using overheated language like "totalitarian" is
frankly silly in this context; it's a kind of rhetorical inflation that's
insulting to those who have had to live under genuine dictatorships, and it
makes it next to impossible to have any real discussion about comparative
political history (if Bush is a totalitarian leader, then what was Stalin?)
Throwing exaggerated charges at our leaders only makes it easier for them to
sidestep genuine complaints. But I know from experience that this sort of
thing is far, far too popular to do anything about.

Alan.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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ahogue

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Since: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 242



(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 6:38 pm
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Alan Allport wrote:

>"Hay Nongunahora" <haynongunahora.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:vjfr1om25arl6c@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
>
>>Fairly accurate description of the behavior of the Bush Administration
>>and its supporters
>>
>>
>
>If you say so. I think using overheated language like "totalitarian" is
>frankly silly in this context; it's a kind of rhetorical inflation that's
>insulting to those who have had to live under genuine dictatorships, and it
>makes it next to impossible to have any real discussion about comparative
>political history (if Bush is a totalitarian leader, then what was Stalin?)
>Throwing exaggerated charges at our leaders only makes it easier for them to
>sidestep genuine complaints. But I know from experience that this sort of
>thing is far, far too popular to do anything about.
>
>Alan.
>
>

Well said.
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ahogue

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Since: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 242



(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 7:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Orwell on Totalitarianism as a State of Experience [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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This is a good example of how meaningless (or at least, from the point
of view of argumentation, irrelevant) formal elements like rhymes, puns,
etc., in literature can make something that is nonsense seem reasonable.

Hal wrote:

 >
 >BESIDEs, there IS a Vision to US Totalitarianism.
 >
 >What is "Total Information Awareness"?
 >
 >They can see us, we can't see them. We are Naked, yet even Economic
 >Conferences are National Security Secrets.
 >
Nice wordplay here: vision -> see. There's also an incidental echo here
of the TIA program's original logo which, if I remember correctly,
prominently featured an eye.
What would otherwise seem a string of nonsequiturs seems a little more
coherent on account of it.

(Incidentally, I didn't know this, but they've changed the name of the
program to "Terrorist Information Network".)

Alan H.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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farouk

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Since: Jul 25, 2003
Posts: 19



(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 9:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Orwell on Totalitarianism as a State of Experience [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Hal" <h_sundt.TakeThisOut@efn.org> wrote in message
news:100820032237553819%h_sundt@efn.org...
 > Try to set aside the inherited Marxist and social-structuralist
 > definitions of Totalitarianism and remember that first in "Spike" and
 > then "Down and Out" and "Pier" Orwell was responding to the Lived
 > Effects of socially sanctioned inequity and loss of liberty.
 >
 > In fact he would hearily agree with the idea that both Master and Slave
 > or foreshorted by twisted social relations.
 >
 > All you have to do is control access to information and manufacture
 > that onformation to rob people of equality and freedom.
 >
 > BESIDEs, there IS a Vision to US Totalitarianism.
 >
 > What is "Total Information Awareness"?
 >
 > They can see us, we can't see them. We are Naked, yet even Economic
 > Conferences are National Security Secrets.
 >
 > And for a game plan for the Purpetual War needed to keep the USA in a
 > perminiant State of Emegency under the War Powers Acts....
 >
 > Try pursuing:
 >
 > "THE GRAND CHESSBOARD - American Primacy And It's Geostrategic
 > Imperatives," Zbigniew Brzezinski, Basic Books, 1997.
 >
 > These are the very first words in the book: "Ever since the continents
 > started interacting politically, some five hundred years ago, Eurasia
 > has been the center of world power."- p. xiii.æ Eurasia is all of the
 > territory east of Germany and Poland, stretching all the way through
 > Russia and China to the Pacific Ocean. It includes the Middle East and
 > most of the Indian subcontinent. The key to controlling Eurasia, says
 > Brzezinski, is controlling the Central Asian Republics.
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/zbig.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/zbig.html</font</a>>

I defer to Mr. Allport on this topic. But two points: 1) this kind of
bickering over the definition of totalitarianism is the sort of thing that
makes those of us on the left look silly; and 2) if the United States were
a totalitarian state, we wouldn't be having this conversation.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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mabjo

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Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 423



(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 9:31 pm
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Bobby Farouk wrote:

 > ...
 > I defer to Mr. Allport on this topic.

Oh, mustn't do that, now...

/M<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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