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Since: Aug 26, 2003
Posts: 392
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:05 pm
Post subject: Solarian League Breakup?
Archived from groups: alt>books>david-weber (more info?)
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After a Computer crash and the demise of civilization, it was learned
Paul Howard <ppaulshoward.RemoveThis@insightbb.com> wrote on Mon, 03 Sep 2007
16:07:24 -0500 in alt.books.david-weber :
>There's been speculation on Baen's Bar that even with Mantocore's more
>advanced technology along with Haven joining the Alliance that the
>Solarian League would win in the long run. However, there has been
>strong hints that the Solarian League will be breaking up. It is very
>possible that the breakup will be caused by news of Mesa's meddling
>within the Solarian League.
Two thoughts on the breakup of the Sollies. It will happen because
the most powerful force in the Honorverse wills it: namely the author
needs plot devices.
The "how" will be all manner of socio-political technobable. Some
parts will split because of the revelations of Mesa duplicity, others
will not care, and just go for their own little patch of heaven (or is
that "the heavens"?).
What's going to make it fall apart is simply that it is not cohesive
enough to prevent secessionist movements from taking hold. Once that
starts, any excuse will do. Mesa duplicity, OFS oppression, Border
region corruption, core world "insensitively", a shortage of Legos,
depredations by zombie ninja space pirates. The Return of The One.
Bun-Bun. (I was going to include "bad horoscopes" but how can you cast
a chart in another planetary system?)
In other words, the machinations of Mesa are not going to upset
enough people to matter. But the "cause" of Mesan machinations will
provide an excuse for many who do matter.
tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
"Quemadmoeum gladuis neminem occidit, occidentis telum est. "
Lucius Annaeus Seneca, circa 45 AD
(A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.) |
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External
Since: Jun 24, 2007
Posts: 18
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Solarian League Breakup? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Two thoughts on the breakup of the Sollies. It will happen because
> the most powerful force in the Honorverse wills it: namely the author
> needs plot devices.
>
> The "how" will be all manner of socio-political technobable. Some
> parts will split because of the revelations of Mesa duplicity, others
> will not care, and just go for their own little patch of heaven (or is
> that "the heavens"?).
..
Well, the author does need to further the plot, but breaking up the
Solarian League will *deprive* the author of a plot device rather than
providing one...
> "Quemadmoeum gladuis neminem occidit, occidentis telum est. "
> Lucius Annaeus Seneca, circa 45 AD
> (A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.)
..
Oh, so *he's* the one to blame for "Guns don't kill people: people
kill people".
John Savard |
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External
Since: Aug 26, 2003
Posts: 392
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Solarian League Breakup? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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After a Computer crash and the demise of civilization, it was learned
Quadibloc <jsavard.DeleteThis@ecn.ab.ca> wrote on Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:10:41 -0700
in alt.books.david-weber :
>pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> Two thoughts on the breakup of the Sollies. It will happen because
>> the most powerful force in the Honorverse wills it: namely the author
>> needs plot devices.
>>
>> The "how" will be all manner of socio-political technobable. Some
>> parts will split because of the revelations of Mesa duplicity, others
>> will not care, and just go for their own little patch of heaven (or is
>> that "the heavens"?).
>.
>Well, the author does need to further the plot, but breaking up the
>Solarian League will *deprive* the author of a plot device rather than
>providing one...
Depends on which plot device he's after. Who knows, he could do
both... it's his world, we just live there.
>
>> "Quemadmoeum gladuis neminem occidit, occidentis telum est. "
>> Lucius Annaeus Seneca, circa 45 AD
>> (A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.)
>.
>Oh, so *he's* the one to blame for "Guns don't kill people: people
>kill people".
Yep. "There is nothing new under the sun." Ecclesiastes, circa
1000 BC
--
pyotr filipivich
The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were
better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes." >> Stay informed about: Solarian League Breakup? |
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External
Since: Jun 24, 2007
Posts: 18
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Solarian League Breakup? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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pyotr filipivich wrote:
> After a Computer crash and the demise of civilization, it was learned
> Quadibloc <jsavard DeleteThis @ecn.ab.ca> wrote on Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:10:41 -0700
> in alt.books.david-weber :
> >> "Quemadmoeum gladuis neminem occidit, occidentis telum est. "
> >> Lucius Annaeus Seneca, circa 45 AD
> >> (A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.)
> >.
> >Oh, so *he's* the one to blame for "Guns don't kill people: people
> >kill people".
>
> Yep. "There is nothing new under the sun." Ecclesiastes, circa
> 1000 BC
Since I was used to "Occident" meaning west, I looked it up in a Latin
dictionary, and found that *that* word was right... but apparently the
version of this quote you've used has a couple of minor spelling
errors from the source used.
The first two words should be "Quemadmodum gladius", making it
Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.
As for myself, I recognize that honest citizens having guns can help
reduce some kinds of crime. On the other hand, a disarmed citizenry
makes it safer for police to investigate domestic violence complaints.
The balanced view is to acknowledge: people kill people, but guns make
it easier. In the country, far away from police, farmers had better
have guns, or the motorcycle gangs would rule the countryside. In
crowded anonymous cities, it's almost as daft, but to a lesser degree,
to let angry poor people have guns as it would be to let anyone buy
their own atom bomb (who would, but a would-be terrorist - or perhaps
a mercenary, who could get our country in a war because it facilitated
his actions).
Of course a disarmed citizenry makes life easier for tyrants. But
there is still a difficult balance to be struck.
John Savard >> Stay informed about: Solarian League Breakup? |
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External
Since: Apr 13, 2005
Posts: 440
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:49 am
Post subject: Re: Solarian League Breakup? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Quadibloc wrote:
> As for myself, I recognize that honest citizens having guns can help
> reduce some kinds of crime. On the other hand, a disarmed citizenry
> makes it safer for police to investigate domestic violence complaints.
It also makes home invasions safer, and streets safer for muggers. >> Stay informed about: Solarian League Breakup? |
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External
Since: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 368
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Solarian League Breakup? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 06:49:28 -0700, Offbreed
<offbreed_106 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>Quadibloc wrote:
>
>> As for myself, I recognize that honest citizens having guns can help
>> reduce some kinds of crime. On the other hand, a disarmed citizenry
>> makes it safer for police to investigate domestic violence complaints.
>
>
>It also makes home invasions safer, and streets safer for muggers.
Exactly.
We have a higher murder rate but otherwise our crime rate is below
that of Europe. >> Stay informed about: Solarian League Breakup? |
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External
Since: Apr 13, 2005
Posts: 440
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Solarian League Breakup? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Loren Pechtel wrote:
>
> Exactly.
>
> We have a higher murder rate but otherwise our crime rate is below
> that of Europe.
I don't think we can be certain of that. I've read that most of Europe
counts murders by convictions, while the US counts murders by coroner
reports. We need to know how events get counted.
Back during the '94 gun debates, some were claiming that the US counted
the number of assaults by the number of people assaulting, while England
counted assaults by number of events. 20 people stomping two would be
counted as one assault. (The number of victims seems more reasonable
than either.) We need to know current practice.
On the subject of what is reported, here's a new study published, though
not sponsored by, Harvard.
<http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf> >> Stay informed about: Solarian League Breakup? |
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External
Since: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 243
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:01 am
Post subject: Re: Solarian League Breakup? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 06:49:28 -0700, Offbreed
<offbreed_106.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Quadibloc wrote:
>
>> As for myself, I recognize that honest citizens having guns can help
>> reduce some kinds of crime. On the other hand, a disarmed citizenry
>> makes it safer for police to investigate domestic violence complaints.
>
>
>It also makes home invasions safer, and streets safer for muggers.
americans are the most heavily armed nation in the world. 90 small
arms per 100 people. they also own a bit under a third of the world's
total supply of small arms. this plenitude of firepower doesn't seem
to have brought any real feelings of security as americans continue to
stockpile weapons at a rate that simply increases the percentages
mentioned.
go a few miles across the border into canada for instance and you
again find a wealthy western country with an abundance of firearms.
the difference in attitude though is striking as is the difference in
the per capita death rates from firearms.
there's more to it than the simple presence or absence of weapons. >> Stay informed about: Solarian League Breakup? |
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External
Since: Jan 09, 2006
Posts: 61
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:54 am
Post subject: Re: Solarian League Breakup? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Loren Pechtel kirjoitti:
> On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 06:49:28 -0700, Offbreed
> <offbreed_106.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Quadibloc wrote:
>>> As for myself, I recognize that honest citizens having guns can help
>>> reduce some kinds of crime. On the other hand, a disarmed citizenry
>>> makes it safer for police to investigate domestic violence complaints.
>> It also makes home invasions safer, and streets safer for muggers.
> Exactly.
> We have a higher murder rate but otherwise our crime rate is below
> that of Europe.
What "Europe"? Europe as a geographical area is anything but homogenous.
And the difference between the geographical Europe and the political
entity called the European Union is negligible in this regard.
Well, except for the Swiss, compared to whom the US citizenry is the
disarmed one. >> Stay informed about: Solarian League Breakup? |
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Since: Jul 11, 2004
Posts: 57
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Solarian League Breakup? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Offbreed <offbreed_106.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote
> Loren Pechtel wrote:
> >
> > Exactly.
> >
> > We have a higher murder rate but otherwise our crime rate is below
> > that of Europe.
>
> I don't think we can be certain of that. I've read that most of
Europe
> counts murders by convictions, while the US counts murders by coroner
> reports. We need to know how events get counted.
The usual figures count (non-negligent) homicides in fact, the US CDC
and similar elsewhere go by police reports and cause of death
certificates. This works out well enough though apparently the Swedish
figures suffer from double counting and including bodies brought back
from abroad and the usual American idiot invented the theory that the
English figures omitted manslaughter.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html
> Back during the '94 gun debates, some were claiming that the US
counted
> the number of assaults by the number of people assaulting, while
England
> counted assaults by number of events. 20 people stomping two would be
> counted as one assault. (The number of victims seems more reasonable
> than either.) We need to know current practice.
You may find that the FBI mandates one method, but only for offenses
reported for its Uniform Crime Reports and states uses different ones
like the number of felonies committed. Google ["Counting Rules"
site:homeoffice.gov.uk] for a discussion which resulted in a change so
a burglery of a flat(apartment) occupied by four adults was counted as
"4" because since that is the number who would reply "yes" to a survey
question "have you been burgled in the last year". Both the US and
Britain run such surveys so they have figures on crime not reported to
police or not recorded.
--
Mike D >> Stay informed about: Solarian League Breakup? |
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External
Since: Jul 11, 2004
Posts: 57
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Solarian League Breakup? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Mikko Nahkola <mnahkola.TakeThisOut@trein.ntc.nokia.com> wrote
> Loren Pechtel kirjoitti:
> > On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 06:49:28 -0700, Offbreed
> > <offbreed_106.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > We have a higher murder rate but otherwise our crime rate is below
> > that of Europe.
>
> What "Europe"? Europe as a geographical area is anything but
homogenous.
> And the difference between the geographical Europe and the political
> entity called the European Union is negligible in this regard.
In this respect "Europe" (40 states) and the EU (25 states) are
reasonably homogenous.
> Well, except for the Swiss, compared to whom the US citizenry is the
> disarmed one.
No in fact.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html
has Switzerland 27.2 % households with guns (includes all army
personnel.)
US 39.0 %
--
Mike D >> Stay informed about: Solarian League Breakup? |
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External
Since: Jul 01, 2004
Posts: 285
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Solarian League Breakup? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <01c7f14d$47e34140$LocalHost@default>,
"Michael R N Dolbear" <me DeleteThis @privacy.net> wrote:
> Mikko Nahkola <mnahkola DeleteThis @trein.ntc.nokia.com> wrote
>
> > Well, except for the Swiss, compared to whom the US citizenry is the
> > disarmed one.
>
> No in fact.
>
> http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html
>
> has Switzerland 27.2 % households with guns (includes all army
> personnel.)
> US 39.0 %
You have to look at quality as well as quantity. A lot of those Swiss
guns are fully automatic weapons, in the hands of people who have been
trained how to use them.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/> >> Stay informed about: Solarian League Breakup? |
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Since: Jul 11, 2004
Posts: 57
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Solarian League Breakup? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Don Sample <dsample RemoveThis @synapse.net> wrote
> "Michael R N Dolbear" <me RemoveThis @privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > Mikko Nahkola <mnahkola RemoveThis @trein.ntc.nokia.com> wrote
> >
> > > Well, except for the Swiss, compared to whom the US citizenry is
the
> > > disarmed one.
> >
> > No in fact.
> >
> > http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html
> >
> > has Switzerland 27.2 % households with guns (includes all army
> > personnel.)
> > US 39.0 %
>
> You have to look at quality as well as quantity. A lot of those
Swiss
> guns are fully automatic weapons, in the hands of people who have
been
> trained how to use them.
But only those who are still in the miltia. Anyone who is over 42 who
has kept up their markmanship is offered an older rifle on discharge or
their present one converted to non-automatic. And the latest change is
that even the militia will have to give up their sealed ammo so their
training won't be much use unless they have bought their own or can get
to the armory to draw some.
--
Mike D >> Stay informed about: Solarian League Breakup? |
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Since: Aug 15, 2006
Posts: 8
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Solarian League Breakup? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Quadibloc wrote:
> ... In
> crowded anonymous cities, it's almost as daft, but to a lesser degree,
> to let angry poor people have guns as it would be to let anyone buy
> their own atom bomb (who would, but a would-be terrorist - or perhaps
> a mercenary, who could get our country in a war because it facilitated
> his actions).
>
> Of course a disarmed citizenry makes life easier for tyrants. But
> there is still a difficult balance to be struck.
>
> John Savard
>
Crowded anonymous poor people with guns will not remain poor, or
tractable. Remember the Chilean army first enforced the gun control
laws, and then and only then moved against the working people and the
Allende government. >> Stay informed about: Solarian League Breakup? |
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External
Since: Jul 03, 2003
Posts: 131
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:59 am
Post subject: Re: Solarian League Breakup? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 01:01:09 GMT, an orbiting mind-control laser made
Brian McDonald <Brian_knowspam.McDonald.RemoveThis@shaw.ca> write:
I have to admit, these facts fascinate me.
Could you provide citations for these?
>americans are the most heavily armed nation in the world. 90 small
>arms per 100 people.
Most importantly, I'd like to ask you what you take from this
factoid. What is it telling you?
> they also own a bit under a third of the world's
>total supply of small arms.
Does that include rifles, and such? Purely civilian ownership of
weapons, or military small arms, too?
Context, of course, is everything.
-JPB >> Stay informed about: Solarian League Breakup? |
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