Welcome to BookBoardz.com!
FAQFAQ      ProfileProfile    Private MessagesPrivate Messages   Log inLog in

Don't Get Sore ...

 
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
   Book Forums (Home) -> Isaac Asimov RSS
Next:  Importance of Isaac Asimov in robotics  
Author Message
rball84213

External


Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 6:12 am
Post subject: Don't Get Sore ...
Archived from groups: alt>books>isaac-asimov (more info?)

[RB comment: Message provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

The Space Shuttle is (and Skylab was) spacious enough that
astronauts could get up and walk around. The spaciousness
made sanitary functions easier.

The Apollo trips to the moon utilized (relatively) small capsules
where the astronauts reclined in pressure suits. There was
little room to move around. I believe the books "The Right Stuff"
and "Apollo 13" contain some discussion about the male
astronauts sanitary concerns while in pressure suits. The
journey to the moon does not take tens of days in each direction.

A human journey to Mars will be of relatively long duration in
each direction, and I assume the use of small capsules with
astronauts continuously reclining in pressure suits. I know that
hospitals and nursing homes have procedures to ensure that
bedridden patients do not develop bedsores (which can range
from minor irritations to ulcerating infections).

Has anybody discussed how an astronaut forced to continually
wear a pressure suit and recline within a small space capsule
for tens of days will avoid developing bedsores?

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at www.amazon.com
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg

 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 
Back to top
Login to vote
ernestf

External


Since: Nov 14, 2003
Posts: 929



(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 6:12 am
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Richard Ballard" <rball84213.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324221220.08988.00000016@mb-m02.aol.com...
 > [RB comment: Message provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]
 >
 > The Space Shuttle is (and Skylab was) spacious enough that
 > astronauts could get up and walk around. The spaciousness
 > made sanitary functions easier.
 >
 > The Apollo trips to the moon utilized (relatively) small capsules
 > where the astronauts reclined in pressure suits. There was
 > little room to move around. I believe the books "The Right Stuff"
 > and "Apollo 13" contain some discussion about the male
 > astronauts sanitary concerns while in pressure suits. The
 > journey to the moon does not take tens of days in each direction.
 >
 > A human journey to Mars will be of relatively long duration in
 > each direction, and I assume the use of small capsules with
 > astronauts continuously reclining in pressure suits. I know that
 > hospitals and nursing homes have procedures to ensure that
 > bedridden patients do not develop bedsores (which can range
 > from minor irritations to ulcerating infections).
 >
 > Has anybody discussed how an astronaut forced to continually
 > wear a pressure suit and recline within a small space capsule
 > for tens of days will avoid developing bedsores?

First off, with modern rockets, a trip to Mars is measured not in "tens
of days" but in "months," so I assume that they will get more commodious
accomodations during the trip.

Either we deliver a vastly faster propulsion method, or we need to give
them some bloody room to stretch, I think.

Have a great day!

Ernest
_____________________
"paid
I am
worked."<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 
Back to top
Login to vote
rball84213

External


Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

[RB comment: Message provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <406252B0.229E52CB.TakeThisOut@alcyone.com>,
Erik Max Francis <max.TakeThisOut@alcyone.com> writes:

 >Richard Ballard wrote:
 >
  >>Has anybody discussed how an astronaut forced to continually
  >>wear a pressure suit and recline within a small space capsule
  >>for tens of days will avoid developing bedsores?
 >
 >The test mission was already performed. Look up _Gemini VII_.
 >
 >--
 > __ Erik Max Francis

The difference between any of the Gemini missions (which
took days) and a human journey to Mars (which will take many
tens of days in each direction) is the difference between a
one hundred yard dash and a marathon run. I know no
precedent to spending _many_ tens of days _continuously_
reclining in a pressure suit.

The United States Government knows about physical conditioning,
but how do you toughen up somebody's _skin_ to survive an
enclosed, sweaty (ever had a nervous sweat?) increasingly grimy
environment? A papercut can make keyboard work awkward, and
bedsores potentially range from minor rashes to ulcerating
infections. Ulcerating infections are painful -- in addition,
infections raise the possibility of blood poisoning with
attendent mental acuity deterioration -- no laughing matter on a
journey to Mars.

Anybody who watches T V knows that hospitals routinely use
intervenous feeding of pharmacuticals, of electrolytes and
of nourishment. An intervenous feed creates no solid waste --
no bedpan problems. Orally administered liquid nourishment
(e.g., protein shakes) might offer similar advantages during
long space journeys, but bowel movement is necessary both
to maintain bowel function and for microbic safety. [I.e., the
lower interstine extracts water from solid waste. Eliminate
the solid waste or the solid waste eventually turns rock hard,
and I don't want to think about longterm constipation during
a human journey to Mars. I.e., food (even cooked food) contains
_some_ living bacteria, and you don't want that bacteria growing,
evolving and becoming toxic while sitting in your lower intestine
like in a petri dish]. On a journey to Mars taking many tens of
days in each direction, some solid food (and solid waste
elimination) is MANDATORY -- Tang(TM) won't solve the problem,
and pureed food (e.g., baby food) eventually must be eliminated
from the body.

BTW, these lower intestine considerations raise questions about
the practicality of astronauts 'sleeping' through long journeys
in outer space, a popular problem solution in science fiction.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 
Back to top
Login to vote
rball84213

External


Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

[RB comment: Message provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <hmk560hd92q5m3tkr3kp06eutv1036qe9n.DeleteThis@4ax.com>,
Steerpike <steerpike-100.DeleteThis@nospam.freeuk.com> writes:

 >On 25 Mar 2004 03:12:21 GMT,
 >rball84213@aol.com (Richard Ballard) wrote:
 >
  >>[RB comment: Message provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]
  >>
 >-- snip --
  >>
  >>A human journey to Mars will be of relatively long duration in
  >>each direction, and I assume the use of small capsules with
  >>astronauts continuously reclining in pressure suits. I know that
  >>hospitals and nursing homes have procedures to ensure that
  >>bedridden patients do not develop bedsores (which can range
  >>from minor irritations to ulcerating infections).
  >>
  >>Has anybody discussed how an astronaut forced to continually
  >>wear a pressure suit and recline within a small space capsule
  >>for tens of days will avoid developing bedsores?
 >
 >I must admit, I don't get this post. I don't know of any Mars mission
 >profile that expects its astronauts to be suited for the duration of
 >the trip - the more so as most of the studies look at a round-trip of
 >as much as three years, with the stop-off at Mars in the middle.
 >
 >Have you seen other studies which do make this assumption?

My assumption is that the capsules used to carry humans to Mars
will be (relatively) small and will be packed with consumable
cargo [food and a source of breathing air (perhaps fresh water
that can be drank and also hydrolyzed)]. As a result there will
be minimum space for humans, dictating an acceleration couched
pressure suited environment. IMO you can not risk an accident
in a shirtsleeved environment on a journey to Mars.

The best environmental analogy I can draw is belowdeck
(no risky enroute spacewalks) on one of the old oceangoing
wooden sailing ships. Nutrition (e.g., rickets) was a definite
problem for sailors. Discipline during a long voyage also was
a problem -- there is a reason that old time unshaven buccaneers
are stereotypically depicted as wearing a brass earring.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 
Back to top
Login to vote
rball84213

External


Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

[RB comment: Message provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <20040325085346.05305.00000017.RemoveThis@mb-m05.aol.com>,
rball84213.RemoveThis@aol.com (Richard Ballard) writes:

 >In article <hmk560hd92q5m3tkr3kp06eutv1036qe9n.RemoveThis@4ax.com>,
 >Steerpike <steerpike-100.RemoveThis@nospam.freeuk.com> writes:
 >
  >>On 25 Mar 2004 03:12:21 GMT,
  >>rball84213@aol.com (Richard Ballard) wrote:

<snip>

   >>>A human journey to Mars will be of relatively long duration in
   >>>each direction, and I assume the use of small capsules with
   >>>astronauts continuously reclining in pressure suits. I know that
   >>>hospitals and nursing homes have procedures to ensure that
   >>>bedridden patients do not develop bedsores (which can range
   >>>from minor irritations to ulcerating infections).
   >>>
   >>>Has anybody discussed how an astronaut forced to continually
   >>>wear a pressure suit and recline within a small space capsule
   >>>for tens of days will avoid developing bedsores?
  >>
  >>I must admit, I don't get this post. I don't know of any Mars
  >>mission
  >>profile that expects its astronauts to be suited for the duration of
  >>the trip - the more so as most of the studies look at a round-trip
  >>of
  >>as much as three years, with the stop-off at Mars in the middle.
  >>
  >>Have you seen other studies which do make this assumption?
 >
 >My assumption is that the capsules used to carry humans to Mars
 >will be (relatively) small and will be packed with consumable
 >cargo [food and a source of breathing air (perhaps fresh water
 >that can be drank and also hydrolyzed)]. As a result there will
 >be minimum space for humans, dictating an acceleration couched
 >pressure suited environment. IMO you can not risk an accident
 >in a shirtsleeved environment on a journey to Mars.
 >
 >The best environmental analogy I can draw is belowdeck
 >(no risky enroute spacewalks) on one of the old oceangoing
 >wooden sailing ships. Nutrition (e.g., rickets) was a definite
 >problem for sailors. Discipline during a long voyage also was
 >a problem -- there is a reason that old time unshaven buccaneers
 >are stereotypically depicted as wearing a brass earring.

A linguistic comment: My old dictionary talks around the issue by
referring the reader to an arcane reference text, but my old
dictionary defines the origin of the term 'Yankee' as "a disparaging
nickname for a Hollander, later for Dutch freebooter", and defines a
'freebooter' as "a plunderer; pirate; buccaneer".

I suppose if a sailor lacked discipline and was straying from
the intended course, a Yankee Captain could give the sailor's
brass earring a yank and reset the sailor back onto the
intended disciplined course.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 
Back to top
Login to vote
rball84213

External


Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

[RB comment: Message provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <20040325092732.18733.00000017 DeleteThis @mb-m03.aol.com>,
rball84213 DeleteThis @aol.com (Richard Ballard) writes:

 >In article <20040325085346.05305.00000017 DeleteThis @mb-m05.aol.com>,
 >rball84213@aol.com (Richard Ballard) writes:
 >
  >>In article <hmk560hd92q5m3tkr3kp06eutv1036qe9n DeleteThis @4ax.com>,
  >>Steerpike <steerpike-100 DeleteThis @nospam.freeuk.com> writes:
  >>
   >>>On 25 Mar 2004 03:12:21 GMT,
   >>>rball84213@aol.com (Richard Ballard) wrote:

<snip>

   >>>>A human journey to Mars will be of relatively long duration in
   >>>>each direction, and I assume the use of small capsules with
   >>>>astronauts continuously reclining in pressure suits. I know that
   >>>>hospitals and nursing homes have procedures to ensure that
   >>>>bedridden patients do not develop bedsores (which can range
   >>>>from minor irritations to ulcerating infections).
   >>>>
   >>>>Has anybody discussed how an astronaut forced to continually
   >>>>wear a pressure suit and recline within a small space capsule
   >>>>for tens of days will avoid developing bedsores?
   >>>
   >>>I must admit, I don't get this post. I don't know of any Mars
   >>>mission profile that expects its astronauts to be suited for
   >>>the duration of the trip - the more so as most of the studies
   >>>look at a round-trip of as much as three years, with the
   >>>stop-off at Mars in the middle.
   >>>
   >>>Have you seen other studies which do make this assumption?
  >>
  >>My assumption is that the capsules used to carry humans to Mars
  >>will be (relatively) small and will be packed with consumable
  >>cargo [food and a source of breathing air (perhaps fresh water
  >>that can be drank and also hydrolyzed)]. As a result there will
  >>be minimum space for humans, dictating an acceleration couched
  >>pressure suited environment. IMO you can not risk an accident
  >>in a shirtsleeved environment on a journey to Mars.

Based upon the Soviet experience, I am assuming a mission to
Mars would _not_ use high percentage oxygen breathing environment.
I am not a chemist, but offhand I know no compact inert material
that can be used to _cleanly_ generate nitrogen gas or
carbon dioxide gas.

  >>The best environmental analogy I can draw is belowdeck
  >>(no risky enroute spacewalks) on one of the old oceangoing
  >>wooden sailing ships. Nutrition (e.g., rickets) was a definite
  >>problem for sailors. Discipline during a long voyage also was
  >>a problem -- there is a reason that old time unshaven buccaneers
  >>are stereotypically depicted as wearing a brass earring.
 >
 >A linguistic comment: My old dictionary talks around the issue by
 >referring the reader to an arcane reference text, but my old
 >dictionary defines the origin of the term 'Yankee' as "a disparaging
 >nickname for a Hollander, later for Dutch freebooter", and defines a
 >'freebooter' as "a plunderer; pirate; buccaneer".
 >
 >I suppose if a sailor lacked discipline and was straying from
 >the intended course, a Yankee Captain could give the sailor's
 >brass earring a yank and reset the sailor back onto the
 >intended disciplined course.

Thinking back to the original Apollo era missions I remembered
another concern -- human muscular atrophy.

When humans live in a near zero gravity environment for a long
time period, their muscles lose strength from not being used.
This includes leg, arm and heart muscles -- your heart hardly
works to pump blood in a near zero gravity environment. I have
not followed this phenomenon recently, but the early astronauts
who made duration breaking orbital voyages did experience some
muscular atrophy.

Convalescing patients in physical rehabilitation clinics sometimes
exercise against elastic bands (big rubber bands). I do not know
if this is adequate sustaining exercise on a long space voyage.

Admittedly Mars has less gravity than Earth, but Mars has more
gravity than the Moon. Astronauts with muscular atrophy arriving
on the Martian surface might have difficulty performing their
assignments, and if there are medical problems it's a long ride to
the physician's office.

And when it is time to return to Earth, liftoff from the Martian
surface tasks the heart muscle.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 
Back to top
Login to vote
rball84213

External


Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

[RB comment: Message provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <c3tkmf$2bdg8m$1@ID-79033.news.uni-berlin.de>,
"Ernest Fairchild" <ernestf RemoveThis @delphidude.com> writes:

 >"Richard Ballard" <rball84213 RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote in message
 > news:20040324221220.08988.00000016@mb-m02.aol.com...
 >
  >>[RB comment: Message provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]
  >>
  >>The Space Shuttle is (and Skylab was) spacious enough that
  >>astronauts could get up and walk around. The spaciousness
  >>made sanitary functions easier.
  >>
  >>The Apollo trips to the moon utilized (relatively) small capsules
  >>where the astronauts reclined in pressure suits. There was
  >>little room to move around. I believe the books "The Right Stuff"
  >>and "Apollo 13" contain some discussion about the male
  >>astronauts sanitary concerns while in pressure suits. The
  >>journey to the moon does not take tens of days in each direction.
  >>
  >>A human journey to Mars will be of relatively long duration in
  >>each direction, and I assume the use of small capsules with
  >>astronauts continuously reclining in pressure suits. I know that
  >>hospitals and nursing homes have procedures to ensure that
  >>bedridden patients do not develop bedsores (which can range
  >>from minor irritations to ulcerating infections).
  >>
  >>Has anybody discussed how an astronaut forced to continually
  >>wear a pressure suit and recline within a small space capsule
  >>for tens of days will avoid developing bedsores?
 >
 >First off, with modern rockets, a trip to Mars is measured not
 >in "tens of days" but in "months," so I assume that they will
 >get more commodious accomodations during the trip.

As I mentioned in an earlier message, IMO the majority of capsule
volume on a Mars mission capsule will be occupied with storage of
consumables -- food, drinking water, and breathing air sources.

 >Either we deliver a vastly faster propulsion method, or we need
 >to give them some bloody room to stretch, I think.

IMO, 'a vastly faster propulsion method' has two problems.
High acceleration from a higher powered rocket motor causes
medical problems in a muscular atrophied situation (discussed
earlier). Velocity also can be achieved by a longer burn on a
smaller rocket motor, but any velocity requires deceleration
when nearing destination.

Either way, you burn fuel accelerating and decelerating, and
fuel consumption increases both with increased ac/deceleration
and also with increased mass. Increased fuel consumption creates
a fuel storage problem. I do not foresee much room to stretch.

The current Mars Rovers were not designed to return to Earth.
The current Mars Rovers had a somewhat rough engineered landing
on the Martian surface. A Mars mission carrying astronauts on
a round trip journey probably would require some landing adjustments
at the Martian stage of the journey. If necessary, capsule
Earth atmospheric reentry at journey's completion might be avoided
by retrieving the astronauts and their cargo from their
Earth orbiting capsule -- no splashdown.

The bottom line is that a space mission carrying astronauts
operates in a environment of constrained resources -- only so
much carrying capacity for astronauts, food, air and fuel on a
round trip journey. Astronauts are superbly conditioned, but
the human body has limitations.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 
Back to top
Login to vote
lvpokerplayer

External


Since: Feb 08, 2004
Posts: 64



(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

 >From: rball84213 RemoveThis @aol.com (Richard Ballard)

 >Has anybody discussed how an astronaut forced to continually
 >wear a pressure suit and recline within a small space capsule
 >for tens of days will avoid developing bedsores?
 >

As others have pointed out, a Mars mission will require more than just tens of
days, unless we have a continuous thrust system such as an ion drive. This has
been used in the Deep Space One mission (not to be confused with Deep Space
Nine) and at least one communications satellite.
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://hs.onysd.wednet.edu/clubs/astroweb/club/news/deep_space_1.html" target="_blank">http://hs.onysd.wednet.edu/clubs/astroweb/club/news/deep_space_1.html</a> Even
with this, I think mission time will be too long for a small capsule approach.
In Expanded Universe Robert A. Heinlein calculated the travel time to Mars
using constant boosts of 1 g, 1/10 g, 1/100 g, and 1/000 g. At one g the round
trip time is 4.59 days, but this is out of the question. We do not even have
any good theories as to how to achieve a 1 g continuous boost over a period of
days. I think even 1/10 g is unattainable, and that results in a round trip of
14.5 days. MAYBE this is doable in a small capsule, but it is stretching
things. A more realistic acceleration of 1/100 g gives a round trip of 45.9
days, and I think that is out of the question. At 1/1000 g, the trip is 145
days, and I think that might be our most realistic assumption for a continuous
boost with current technology.

Without continuous propulsion, it is out of the question. Months at least
would be needed each way. If we use a Hohmann minimum energy orbit, the travel
time is about 8.5 months each way. <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://makeashorterlink.com/?K2B4267D7" target="_blank">http://makeashorterlink.com/?K2B4267D7</a> If
we are willing to use more fuel we can get there faster, but any realistic fuel
consumption still means a mission much too long for a small capsule to work.
This is simply not an option for a Mars mission. Both physically and mentally,
staying in an acceleration couch while wearing a pressure suit for that length
of time is out of the question. The astronaut would be very weak and ill at
best, and might not even live through the experience. He certainly would be in
no shape to walk on Mars, if he did live that long. I also doubt if there is
anyone who could remain sane for that long under those conditions.

I don't think direct lift off from Earth is an option either. I think the
heaviest booster we have ever made was the Saturn V. I doubt if even one of
these could launch the mission. Even if we did assume one person, smallest
possible capsule with him strapped to the couch all the way, no landing just
orbit and return, minimum possible life support, and the hell with health or
sanity, even then I don't think a Saturn V could have launched the mission.

Several launches will be necessary to assemble the mission. I am guessing that
trying to take along consumables will be out of the question, even if it is a
one person mission. A more practical idea would probably be hydroponics for
food and oxygen. I don't think these launches should come from the Earth
though. I think we should build a colony on the moon, then use it to build and
launch the Mars mission. Some things will have to come from Earth, for example
computer chips. I don't think these will be manufactured by a lunar colony any
time in the near future. Still, they can make and launch the massive stuff,
such as the structure of the craft itself. We can probably use and
electromagnetic mass driver for these launches, instead of chemical fuel. The
moon has plenty of oxygen (the crust is 43% oxygen by weight) but the fuel
itself is lacking in the Lunar crust. Instead of trying to extract hydrogen
(50 parts per million) or other rare and hard to get stuff for fuel, a mass
driver looks a lot more practical.

I think magnesium could be used as ion fuel. It is present in sufficient
amounts (about 5% by weight) and has a fairly low boiling temperature. It
should be possible to use a solar array to vaporize it, then shoot it out as an
ion stream for continuous propulsion. The Deep Space One mission uses xenon,
but that is not present at all in the lunar crust. The solar panels for the
mission can probably be made on the moon too, instead of launched from Earth.
They will already be using hydroponics for their own food and oxygen needs, so
setting them up in this craft should be simple enough. Ammonium nitrate for
plant food might need to come from Earth. What I am guessing is that the lunar
colony could build most of the stuff for this ship, and some minimal stuff
comes from Earth, especially the electronics needed to get into Earth orbit.
Then it is flown into Earth orbit, where launches can rendezvous with the ship
in order to complete the electronics, send up ammonium nitrate and whatever
else is needed for hydroponics (not seeds, these were already sent from Lunar
launches), crew, various scientific probes and equipment, and fuel for the
landers. I have tried to figure out how to get this from Luna, but I don't see
a way. Liquid oxygen is not practical, because it requires cryogenic storage
and even with the best storage it boils off over time. I think trying to store
it as high pressure gas would be too bulky to be practical. The Apollo
missions used hydrazine for fuel and nitrogen tetroxide as oxidizer. Nitrogen
is present in the lunar crust at 100 PPM, twice as much as hydrogen. Possibly
we could make the nitrogen tetroxide on the moon. Hydrazine (N2H4) uses two
elements that are rare on the moon. UDMH ((CH3)2NNH2), another fuel used by
Apollo, adds carbon to the list of rare stuff we need. Alcohol needs carbon
(another 100 PPM substance) and hydrogen. I'm guessing that if we want to land
on Mars, lander fuel needs to come from Earth. Possibly they would only send
the needed rare elements, and we could synthesize it onboard, with Lunar
oxygen?

I do have one somewhat wild idea for lander fuel, but I doubt if it is
practical. Here it is, can anyone with engineering knowlege tell me if it
might work? Magnesium and aluminum both burn, and both are present in the
Lunar crust. Could a hybrid solid/liquid rocket be built? It would have a
combustion chamber similar to the Space Shuttle solid rocket boosters, but
lined with aluminum, magnesium, or an alloy of these two. Then we pump in
oxidizer (liquid oxygen for short missions, a more storable oxidizer such as
N2O4 for longer ones) and ignite it. Would we get enough thrust to make it
work as a rocket? We can vary the thrust by controlling the amount of oxidizer
pumped in, and start and stop it, unlike most solid fuel rockets.

The best part is that I think the cost of a lunar colony would be similar to
trying to base a Mars mission from Earth. At the end though, we have both a
colony and a Mars mission. With Earth basing, all we have is a Mars mission.
I think a lunar colony could put together a much larger mission, too.

Over on alt.fan.heinlein, I have discussed my ideas for a lunar colony fairly
extensively. I have put them into a text file, which I will now post here in a
new thread. Any and all comments are welcome.

--
Ferengi rule of acquisition #192: Never cheat a Klingon...unless you're sure
you can get away with it.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 
Back to top
Login to vote
rball84213

External


Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

[RB comment: Response provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <4063560B.ACB21D5A RemoveThis @alcyone.com>,
Erik Max Francis <max RemoveThis @alcyone.com> writes:

 >Richard Ballard wrote:
 >
  >>The difference between any of the Gemini missions (which
  >>took days) and a human journey to Mars (which will take many
  >>tens of days in each direction) is the difference between a
  >>one hundred yard dash and a marathon run.
 >
 >_Gemini VII_ was 14 days in orbit.

Another respondent pointed out that given current rocket motors,
a journey to Mars would take months each way. Rocket motors
with greater thrust stress the human body harder and burn fuel
faster.

  >>The United States Government knows about physical conditioning,
  >>but how do you toughen up somebody's _skin_ to survive an
  >>enclosed, sweaty (ever had a nervous sweat?) increasingly grimy
  >>environment?
 >
 >What do you think the problem is? Humans spent the vast majority of
 >their history with wholly inadequate hygiene. Primitive humans
 >went for
 >enormously long periods without washing; usually the only washing
 >that
 >happened was accidentally stepping in (usually unclean) water. The
 >only
 >serious danger her is offending others and small cuts getting
 >infectious, which isn't a problem when you have access to modern
 >medical
 >technology such as antibiotics.

Starting a rash/abrasion is easy. I don't wish to be rude,
but have you ever experienced chafing from underwear elastic?
And being continually suited up with no chance for washing
or for rinsing off sweat (organic salts are irritants) and
surface dirt (epidermal flaking) makes skin grimy and prone
to nuture infectious surface bacteria.

It is better to stay healthy than to require antibiotics.
I am _not_ qualified to provide medical opinions, but my
personal experience is that infection treated with
antibiotics sometimes reduces mental acuity -- bad for
any astronaut. And infected abrasions, etc. swell and hurt --
another mental distraction that antibiotics do not
address directly.

In his science fiction novel "Stand On Zanzibar", John Brunner
commented about an Egyptian worker viewing the nearly
completed Pyramids. The worker was more interested in his
empty stomach and the irritating blister on his heel than the
grandeur of the Pyramids.

  >>A papercut can make keyboard work awkward, and
  >>bedsores potentially range from minor rashes to ulcerating
  >>infections. Ulcerating infections are painful -- in addition,
  >>infections raise the possibility of blood poisoning with
  >>attendent mental acuity deterioration -- no laughing matter on a
  >>journey to Mars.
 >
 >How do you propose the astronauts are going to get bed sores while
 >they're in _microgravity_? Do you know what bed sores are?
 >
 >--
 > __ Erik Max Francis

When traveling in Mediterranian climates I use baby powder --
a precaution I do not take when at home.

On a summer crosscountry summer cycling trip across my
state, my helmeted head and scalp sweat continuously. I
repeatedly used my water bottle to wash the encrusted salt
from my face, but enough salt gathered at the outside corners
of my eyes to pickle the skin and cause it to crack open over
several days' ride. The solution was increased washing
and treating the skin with a moisturizer to keep it soft and
pliable so that it would crack no further. It healed.

I was wearing Lycra Spandex(TM) cycling shorts specially designed
to have no irritating seams -- no pelvic abrasions. And I showered
carefully and thoroughly every night, and changed clothing faithfully.

You can argue that a summertime cycling environment has
greater physical stress than a climate controlled space capsule
with pressure suits. I'd reply I was happy to shower and change
clothing _daily_ before supper.

Nobody complains about soap and water, and soap apparently
has antibacterial properties.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 
Back to top
Login to vote
rball84213

External


Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

[RB comment: Response provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <11Q8c.5961$Hm4.3167@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
jesus X <jesus_x DeleteThis @mozillanews.org> writes:

 >On 3/25/2004 8:53 AM Richard Ballard cranked up the brainbox
 >and said:
 >
  >>My assumption is that the capsules used to carry humans to Mars
  >>will be (relatively) small
 >
 >And this assumption is your undoing. Check out some of the
 >research concept illustrations.

' ... research concept ...'? Concept?

I am somewhat familiar with the history of the United States
manned space program. I will wait until the economic analyses
are completed.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 
Back to top
Login to vote
rball84213

External


Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

[RB comment: From ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <opr5g06ivj0v1caabrianlj.TakeThisOut@news-text.dial.pipex.com>,
"Brian L Johnson" <no.email.TakeThisOut@address.invalid> writes:

 >Needless to say, the living capsule need not be small.

During the Apollo era there was a T V series "Space 1999"
starring Martin Landau that depicted life on a lunar base.
At the time it seemed plausible -- it didn't happen.

I am somewhat familiar with the history of the United States
manned space program. I will wait until the economic analyses
are completed before being convinced on Martian capsule size.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 
Back to top
Login to vote
rball84213

External


Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 12) Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 12:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

[RB comment: Response provided both to ABIA and ABLN]

In article <4064BE54.AF95C09E RemoveThis @alcyone.com>,
Erik Max Francis <max RemoveThis @alcyone.com> writes:

  >>Starting a rash/abrasion is easy. I don't wish to be rude,
  >>but have you ever experienced chafing from underwear elastic?
 >
 >That's not what a bed sore is. Bed sores are caused because of
 >prolonged pressure between a certain part of the body and the surface
 >it's resting against,

You neglected to answer my question, Eric, and I find that
telling. Being stuck in the same clothing for long duration
without opportunity to change clothing or wash potentially
causes health problems that must be addressed.

I do not remember the details, but I remember that the
United States Skylab contained some form of shower bath.

 >and in long-duration spaceflight there simply will
 >not be any such pressure, whether the capsule is cramped or not,
 >and the current designs will not have nearly cramped capsules as >you seem to
think.
 >
 >And there _are_ causes of long-duration spaceflight -- people have
 >been in space stations for months on end with no similar effects.
 >_Mir_ and similar stations are at least as cramped, if not more,
 >as proposed Mars mission spacecraft.
 >
 >--
 > __ Erik Max Francis

I will wait for the economic and ergonomic (human factors)
analyses before I make further judgments. We have landed
automated Rovers on Mars -- they are wonderful machines
but they do not have a human being's general purpose
utility and curiousity. Human beings have different physical
limitations. To my knowledge you can _not_ put astronauts
into 'suspended animation' (e.g., Larry Niven's stasis fields)
through the rough parts of the journey -- human beings eat,
breathe, potentially experience muscular atrophy and
potentially bruise throughout the journey. IMO biological
limitations will be a real factor in the planning and design of
the proposed Martian mission.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 
Back to top
Login to vote
rball84213

External


Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 13) Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 2:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

[RB comment: Response provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <40654AF4.663D8B9F DeleteThis @alcyone.com>,
Erik Max Francis <max DeleteThis @alcyone.com> writes:

 >Richard Ballard wrote:
 >
  >>You neglected to answer my question, Eric, and I find that
  >>telling.
 >
 >What, that I don't bother questions that are obviously irrelevant?
 >Yeah, it means I'm not prone to wasting my time or yours.

Once again you are attempting to evade the question, Eric.
Have you ever experienced chafing from underwear elastic?
Underwear elastic can chafe in a near zero gravity
environment. A wrinkle in your underwear can chafe if
you recline on it long enough.

And you chose not to respond to my comment that we have
no stasis field / suspended animation capability, Eric.

  >>Being stuck in the same clothing for long duration
  >>without opportunity to change clothing or wash potentially
  >>causes health problems that must be addressed.
 >
 >Nice goalpost shift, it was bed sores you were worried about before,
 >which aren't physically possible in contemporary long-duration
 >spaceflight.

Eric, not changing bedsheets (neglect/abuse?) complicates bedsore
problems, particularly when situations complicate (a-hem) elimination
of bodily wastes. Not changing your underwear and neglecting
personal hygiene complicates your health and your social
interactions, Eric.

On a related note, Eric, apparently you read Larry Niven. Do
you remember the term 'phermones'? Phermones can be considered
natural organic musk. Have you ever been stuck in an elevator
with somebody wearing a musky cologne that you found objectionable?
If yes, you were the victim of an 'offactory assault'. (Don't
blow any smoke at me, Eric.) Males stuck in an enclosed unwashed
environment might develop instinctive competitive urges if
overexposed to each other's phermones. Men and women overexposed
to each other's phermones in an enclosed unwashed environment might
be sexually distracted. These experiences do _not_ promote mental
acuity, Eric, a mandatory characteristic for astronauts on a
space voyage.

This is the first time I ever have encountered anybody who
does _not_ like soap and water, Eric. I am glad this is
Usenet rather than smellovision.

  >>I do not remember the details, but I remember that the
  >>United States Skylab contained some form of shower bath.
 >
 >Why are you under the delusion that a Mars mission spacecraft would
 >have
 >to be as cramped as an Apollo capsule, and not less cramped like the
 >Skylab, Mir, or ISS (which are still pretty darn cramped)? These
 >stations have had long-duration occupations of the length that you're
 >talking about but haven't had any problem whatsoever with what you're
 >suggesting. Why is that?
 >
 >--
 > __ Erik Max Francis

Show me the implementation funding, Eric. Show me the money.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 
Back to top
Login to vote
rball84213

External


Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 14) Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 2:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

[RB comment: Response provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <whitgurley-DC9B15.01380727032004.RemoveThis@netnews.comcast.net>,
Whit Gurley <whitgurley.RemoveThis@TxHxExOxPxPxOxSxIxTxExOxFxCxOxLxDmail.com>
writes:

 >I'm only glancing through this discussion, but so far I haven't
 >heard
 >anyone bring up the dental atrophy problem. Wired published an
 >article a
 >couple of years ago wherein someone had discovered that rapid tooth
 >decay is the most pressing problem in a weightless (or, assumedly,
 >low-grav) environment. I forget what the reasoning is for this
 >(perhaps
 >it has something to do with the fact that the body is constantly
 >shaving
 >and padding the walls of all the bones in your body based on the
 >stress
 >that each bone receives), nor do I remember why the classic
 >"spinning
 >hoop" craft configurations don't solve the problem, but it's a
 >problem
 >nonetheless. I would think the solution to this would the same
 >solution
 >to muscle atrophy, but I could be wrong.

I am _not_ qualified to provide dental opinions, but I know no
reason [other than inconvenience brushing teeth or reduction of
salivation (which flushes decay bacteria from the mouth)] that
dental decay would be increased in a near zero gravity environment.
I assume you would use a tube to spit into a waste receptacle
rather than just spitting. I know no reason for reduction of
salivation except dehydration.

I know that the Peace Corps requires sound dental condition
before sending a volunteer overseas. I trust that NASA has
the same competence.

I do not know if space food is puree'd, and I do not know how
quickly the jaw muscles atrophy from lack of use due to _not_
chewing puree'd food. Presumably geriatric medicine knows
this answer.

 >One other topic that might be relevant: There are researchers
 >trying to
 >figure out how hibernation works, theorizing that the genes for it
 >exist
 >in humans. Obviously this would be a low-tech form of stasis that
 >would
 >solve more than one logistic problem for the Mars trip. We're many
 >years
 >away from actually making such a trip happen, so there's no telling
 >what
 >new discoveries and technologies will bring it about.

Hibernation will not stop microbic action in your intestines, with
potentially toxic consequences during hibernation. (Bears do waken
periodically during their winter hibernation.) I am _not_ qualified
to provide medical opinions, but the intestines do contain bacteria
-- you can flush the intestines (dilute the intestinal content),
but you can not sterilize the intestine contents for a several month
period. (Think yogurt with active bacterial cultures -- a healthy
food sometimes used to flood the intestines with healthy intestinal
flora after a case of diarrhea. I am _not_ qualified to provide
dietary opinions.)

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 
Back to top
Login to vote
rball84213

External


Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 15) Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 2:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

[RB comment: Response provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <40654C46.86AA9F73 RemoveThis @alcyone.com>,
Erik Max Francis <max RemoveThis @alcyone.com> writes:

 >The "spinning hoop" configuration _is_ the solution to muscle
 >atrophy,
 >either that or a regimen of exercise. All your body expects is
 >resistance, and it doesn't get that in microgravity unless you
 >compensate. The "spinning hoop" simulates gravity just fine,
 >provided
 >the hoop is big enough (if it's not big enough you get disorientation
 >problems because of the differential speed between your head and your
 >feet).
 >
 >There's an immunological effect that appears to occur as well, but no
 >one's sure why at this point.
 >
 >--
 > __ Erik Max Francis

If I didn't understand the immunological effect I would not
rely on the immunological effect, particularly on a long
space voyage.

And when somebody says "This is the answer ..."
I say "Show me the economic analysis."

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 
Back to top
Login to vote
Display posts from previous:   
Related Topics:
Need Asimov book title - Have a friend who had a favorite Asimov book when she was a child. I would like to get her a copy but don't know the title. It involves two kingdoms. Apparently the guy comes to her realm, says he'll see her in a few days then departs for his realm..

Book Signing in Texas? - I have a "friend" that says he has a signed copy of a book of Isaac Asimov's that was signed in Texas. I don't recall in any of the Bio's of the Good Doctor, that he was ever in Texas. Any truth to this?

$1.00 for good Asimov stories - I'd sure like it if someone here would look at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3528523160&category=273&rd=1 where right now a $1 bid would get someone some interesting stories. -- or write to me with a helpful comment or ...

in the finest traditions of Asimov bowing to Pauling - background: The Good Doctor had written a paper about the dangers of Carbon-14 fallout (from nukular tests). A couple of years later Dr. Pauling made a Big Deal over this, and that, in large part, led to the open air nuclear test ban. The Good Doctor..

That science fictional jolt... - So I was browsing through the library and picked up a copy of the Good Doctor's "The Exploding Suns: The Secrets of the Supernovas." Leafing through it, I came across this fascinating passage: <font color=green> ; ; ....
   Book Forums (Home) -> Isaac Asimov All times are: Pacific Time (US & Canada) (change)
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Page 1 of 7

 
You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum



[ Contact us | Terms of Service/Privacy Policy ]