Don't Get Sore ...

[RB comment: Response supplied both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <40656487.C8124A1.DeleteThis@alcyone.com>,
Erik Max Francis <max.DeleteThis@alcyone.com> writes:

 >Richard Ballard wrote:
 >
  >>Once again you are attempting to evade the question, Eric.
  >>Have you ever experienced chafing from underwear elastic?
  >>Underwear elastic can chafe in a near zero gravity
  >>environment. A wrinkle in your underwear can chafe if
  >>you recline on it long enough.
 >
 >What's that have to do with bed sores?

Skin problems while constrained in a reclining position in
a relatively tiny, full space capsule because that is all
that is affordable. No Star Trek with its transmutation
of energy to matter -- no resupply.

  >>Eric, not changing bedsheets (neglect/abuse?) complicates bedsore
  >>problems, particularly when situations complicate (a-hem)
  >>elimination
  >>of bodily wastes. Not changing your underwear and neglecting
  >>personal hygiene complicates your health and your social
  >>interactions, Eric.
 >
 >What's that have to do with with the fact that astronauts have
 >conducted
 >the long-duration flights that you've claimed they haven't and
 >haven't
 >had these problems? You're declaring that they're an insoluble
 >impediment; there's a clear existence proof that they are not.

Eric, if the Martian capsule on a multimonth duration
round trip journey resembles _a full barrel_ because
that is all that is affordable, we got new problems.

Have you ever visited the Smithstonian Air And Space Museum
in Washington DC, Eric? Have you ever touched the moon rock?
A moon rock is embedded in a massive pedestal -- less than
one square inch surface area is exposed. (Think Excalibur,
Eric.) The Apollo astronauts did not bring back _tons_ of
moon rocks, Eric, because they had mass limitations upon
return. I consider that the precedent, Eric, and compared
to Mars the moon is nearby and has low gravity.

  >>On a related note, Eric, apparently you read Larry Niven.
 >
 >Yeah, imagine that, I'm reading this in alt.books.larry-niven.
 >
  >>Do you remember the term 'phermones'?
 >
 >The word you're looking for is _pheromones_.

Golly, Eric, I misspelled a word. Imagine that. I must have
been distracted by my breakfast. I'm glad the misspelling
is in casual text rather than in an operations manual (or
worse, in a computer program).

  >>Phermones can be considered
  >>natural organic musk. Have you ever been stuck in an elevator
  >>with somebody wearing a musky cologne that you found objectionable?
  >>If yes, you were the victim of an 'offactory assault'.

Oops, 'olfactory'. Another breakfast distraction. But I did
not spill my coffee in my lap -- no mess.

  >>(Don't blow any smoke at me, Eric.) Males stuck in an enclosed
  >>unwashed
  >>environment might develop instinctive competitive urges if
  >>overexposed to each other's phermones. Men and women overexposed
  >>to each other's phermones in an enclosed unwashed environment might
  >>be sexually distracted. These experiences do _not_ promote mental
  >>acuity, Eric, a mandatory characteristic for astronauts on a
  >>space voyage.
 >
 >Some coherence at some point would be useful.

This ain't lasers, Eric -- no solar sail spacecraft launched
by Moon-based lasers ala Larry Niven. All fuel must be carried
aboard the mission with no resupply. Ditto with food, drinking
water and a source of breathable air. No stasis fields ala
Larry Niven -- ya gotta eat, ya gotta drink and ya gotta breathe.

Science fiction plots often center around 'if that technology
existed, how would this social and/or physical environment
change?'. I assume no fundamental physics or medical
breakthroughs between now and the launch of the human mission
to Mars. IMO new pharmacuticals or genetic engineering will
not be relevant to the problems encountered on the Mars mission.

  >>This is the first time I ever have encountered anybody who
  >>does _not_ like soap and water, Eric. I am glad this is
  >>Usenet rather than smellovision.
 >
 >Congratulations, you jumped to a bizarre conclusion that had
 >nothing to
 >do with what I was saying.

Did you lose your sense of humor, Eric? Perhaps you were
distracted by _your_ breakfast. Given the choice between not
important misspellings and loss of sense of humor, I'd choose
the misspellings every time. Of course I'm just hacking on
Usenet -- I am not an astronaut depending upon a space capsule
to keep me alive on a round trip voyage to Mars.

 >You said that bed sores would be an impediment to long-duration
 >spaceflight. The fact that long-duration flights have been conducted
 >and have had no such problems is proof otherwise. You were wrong,
 >calling me stinky isn't really going to change that.

There have been _no_ multimonth space journeys conducted
in the equivalent of the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo spacecraft,
Eric. I am _not_ convinced that more spacious accommodations
will be affordable on a mission carrying humans to Mars.

  >>Show me the implementation funding, Eric. Show me the money.
 >
 >Implementating funding for what? The "experiment" has already been
 >conducted.
 >
 >--
 > __ Erik Max Francis

There have been NO multimonth continuous experiments
without _resupply_, Eric. Think of an oceangoing
wooden sailing ship departing for the new world.
What ya got is all ya get until you return -- there is
no food on Mars, no drinking water (to my knowledge),
the Martian atmosphere is not breathable (to my knowledge)
and no fuel supply on Mars (to my knowledge).

Almost makes you wonder if a Martian voyage might be
preceded by a mission that achieves Martian orbit with
the sole purpose of resupply once the capsule carrying
humans arrives in Martian orbit -- get the groceries,
etc. to Mars first safely.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

[RB comment: Provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

IMO former President Kennedy's decision to land Americans
on the moon (a decision that several successive Presidents
supported) initially was a response to the Cold War and to the
Cuban Missile Crisis. IMO President Kennedy's decision was
a de facto extension of the Monroe Doctrine to near space.

The Mercury / Gemini / Apollo programs brought great advances
in computers, in materials science and in biomedicine, but
IMO these programs were _not_ initiated as science investment
programs. Americans like NASA, but IMO these programs were
initiated to accomplish United States dominance of near space.

I observe no equivalent motivation for a mission carrying humans
to Mars -- I observe no equivalent cost justification. As a result,
I believe that economic analyses will be _very_ important to the
hu/manned Mars missions' design and implementation.

And as I alluded to earlier, I observe no relevant _fundamental_
scientific discoveries since the Apollo program. No Star Trek
transporter and energy-to-matter transmutation for resupply.
Star Trek's gravity generators (which raise interesting
inertial mass reduction questions) do not exist. We will be
applying faster computers plus Apollo technology to a Mars
mission. [Deep space telecommunications capabilities might
have improved -- greater power in a noisier terrestrial
environment (e.g., cellular telephones).] I know no
_relevant and significant_ materials science or biomedical
advances since Apollo. IMO new pharmacuticals and genetic
engineering are _not_ applicable to the Mars missions'
_major_ problems.

That is why I (a taxpayer) keep asking "What can we afford?"

More below.

In article <20040327084641.12851.00000069.DeleteThis@mb-m06.aol.com>,
rball84213.DeleteThis@aol.com (Richard Ballard) writes:

 >In article <40656487.C8124A1.DeleteThis@alcyone.com>,
 >Erik Max Francis <max.DeleteThis@alcyone.com> writes:
 >
  >>Richard Ballard wrote:
  >>
   >>>Once again you are attempting to evade the question, Eric.
   >>>Have you ever experienced chafing from underwear elastic?
   >>>Underwear elastic can chafe in a near zero gravity
   >>>environment. A wrinkle in your underwear can chafe if
   >>>you recline on it long enough.
  >>
  >>What's that have to do with bed sores?
 >
 >Skin problems while constrained in a reclining position in
 >a relatively tiny, full space capsule because that is all
 >that is affordable. No Star Trek with its transmutation
 >of energy to matter -- no resupply.
 >
   >>>Eric, not changing bedsheets (neglect/abuse?) complicates bedsore
   >>>problems, particularly when situations complicate (a-hem)
   >>>elimination
   >>>of bodily wastes. Not changing your underwear and neglecting
   >>>personal hygiene complicates your health and your social
   >>>interactions, Eric.
  >>
  >>What's that have to do with with the fact that astronauts have
  >>conducted
  >>the long-duration flights that you've claimed they haven't and
  >>haven't
  >>had these problems? You're declaring that they're an insoluble
  >>impediment; there's a clear existence proof that they are not.
 >
 >Eric, if the Martian capsule on a multimonth duration
 >round trip journey resembles _a full barrel_ because
 >that is all that is affordable, we got new problems.
 >
 >Have you ever visited the Smithstonian Air And Space Museum
 >in Washington DC, Eric? Have you ever touched the moon rock?
 >A moon rock is embedded in a massive pedestal -- less than
 >one square inch surface area is exposed. (Think Excalibur,
 >Eric.) The Apollo astronauts did not bring back _tons_ of
 >moon rocks, Eric, because they had mass limitations upon
 >return. I consider that the precedent, Eric, and compared
 >to Mars the moon is nearby and has low gravity.
 >
   >>>On a related note, Eric, apparently you read Larry Niven.
  >>
  >>Yeah, imagine that, I'm reading this in alt.books.larry-niven.
  >>
   >>>Do you remember the term 'phermones'?
  >>
  >>The word you're looking for is _pheromones_.
 >
 >Golly, Eric, I misspelled a word. Imagine that. I must have
 >been distracted by my breakfast. I'm glad the misspelling
 >is in casual text rather than in an operations manual (or
 >worse, in a computer program).
 >
   >>>Phermones can be considered
   >>>natural organic musk. Have you ever been stuck in an elevator
   >>>with somebody wearing a musky cologne that you found objectionable?
   >>>If yes, you were the victim of an 'offactory assault'.
 >
 >Oops, 'olfactory'. Another breakfast distraction. But I did
 >not spill my coffee in my lap -- no mess.
 >
   >>>(Don't blow any smoke at me, Eric.) Males stuck in an enclosed
   >>>unwashed
   >>>environment might develop instinctive competitive urges if
   >>>overexposed to each other's phermones. Men and women overexposed
   >>>to each other's phermones in an enclosed unwashed environment might
   >>>be sexually distracted. These experiences do _not_ promote mental
   >>>acuity, Eric, a mandatory characteristic for astronauts on a
   >>>space voyage.
  >>
  >>Some coherence at some point would be useful.
 >
 >This ain't lasers, Eric -- no solar sail spacecraft launched
 >by Moon-based lasers ala Larry Niven. All fuel must be carried
 >aboard the mission with no resupply. Ditto with food, drinking
 >water and a source of breathable air. No stasis fields ala
 >Larry Niven -- ya gotta eat, ya gotta drink and ya gotta breathe.
 >
 >Science fiction plots often center around 'if that technology
 >existed, how would this social and/or physical environment
 >change?'. I assume no fundamental physics or medical
 >breakthroughs between now and the launch of the human mission
 >to Mars. IMO new pharmacuticals or genetic engineering will
 >not be relevant to the problems encountered on the Mars mission.
 >
   >>>This is the first time I ever have encountered anybody who
   >>>does _not_ like soap and water, Eric. I am glad this is
   >>>Usenet rather than smellovision.
  >>
  >>Congratulations, you jumped to a bizarre conclusion that had
  >>nothing to
  >>do with what I was saying.
 >
 >Did you lose your sense of humor, Eric? Perhaps you were
 >distracted by _your_ breakfast. Given the choice between not
 >important misspellings and loss of sense of humor, I'd choose
 >the misspellings every time. Of course I'm just hacking on
 >Usenet -- I am not an astronaut depending upon a space capsule
 >to keep me alive on a round trip voyage to Mars.
 >
  >>You said that bed sores would be an impediment to long-duration
  >>spaceflight. The fact that long-duration flights have been
  >>conducted
  >>and have had no such problems is proof otherwise. You were wrong,
  >>calling me stinky isn't really going to change that.
 >
 >There have been _no_ multimonth space journeys conducted
 >in the equivalent of the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo spacecraft,
 >Eric. I am _not_ convinced that more spacious accommodations
 >will be affordable on a mission carrying humans to Mars.
 >
   >>>Show me the implementation funding, Eric. Show me the money.
  >>
  >>Implementating funding for what? The "experiment" has already been
  >>conducted.
  >>
  >>--
  >> __ Erik Max Francis
 >
 >There have been NO multimonth continuous experiments
 >without _resupply_, Eric. Think of an oceangoing
 >wooden sailing ship departing for the new world.
 >What ya got is all ya get until you return -- there is
 >no food on Mars, no drinking water (to my knowledge),
 >the Martian atmosphere is not breathable (to my knowledge)
 >and no fuel supply on Mars (to my knowledge).

When a wooden sailing ship set out to find new worlds, there
was no guarantee the crew would find land. If they found land
there was no guarantee the crew would find fresh water -- the
coastline might be desert. And there was no guarantee that
the crew would catch a significant amount of fish. There was
no resupply guarantee in a wooden sailing ship seeking
new worlds.

 >Almost makes you wonder if a Martian voyage might be
 >preceded by a mission that achieves Martian orbit with
 >the sole purpose of resupply once the capsule carrying
 >humans arrives in Martian orbit -- get the groceries,
 >etc. to Mars first safely.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->