Don't Get Sore ...

Richard Ballard wrote:

 > During the Apollo era there was a T V series "Space 1999"
 > starring Martin Landau that depicted life on a lunar base.
 > At the time it seemed plausible -- it didn't happen.

What, you mean the part where a nuclear waste dump explosion knocked the
Moon out of orbit?

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Richard Ballard wrote:

 > In article <opr5g06ivj0v1caabrianlj DeleteThis @news-text.dial.pipex.com>,
 > "Brian L Johnson" <no.email DeleteThis @address.invalid> writes:
 >
  >> Needless to say, the living capsule need not be small.
 >
 > During the Apollo era there was a T V series "Space 1999"
 > starring Martin Landau that depicted life on a lunar base.
 > At the time it seemed plausible -- it didn't happen.

Isn't that a coincidence?! I've long been a Gerry Anderson fan, and I
know quite a bit about "Space: 1999".

Yes, you're quite right: Gerry himself fully expected the US to have bases
on the moon (although, he didn't think, back in 1973 that they would be
built by 1999 -- he just liked the euphonious sound of the phrase
'nineteen ninety nine' <g>) and, as you say, it didn't happen. A shame,
eh?

 > I am somewhat familiar with the history of the United States
 > manned space program.

Isn't that a coincidence?! I've long been a follower of the US manned
space program and, wouldn't you know it... my much-thumbed copy of _The
Right Stuff_ was returned last night after nearly 9 years absence when a
friend found it in her attic!

 > I will wait until the economic analyses
 > are completed before being convinced on Martian capsule size.

Yes, I think I'll wait as well. Speculation is all very well, but there's
no substitute for cold hard facts, is there? Even better, of course,
would be to wait until after the fact. A friend once told me that, unlike
some disciplines, hindsight was an /exact/ science.

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On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 17:37:43 -0000, "Brian L Johnson"
<no.email.DeleteThis@address.invalid> wrote:

 >
 >Isn't that a coincidence?! I've long been a Gerry Anderson fan, and I
 >know quite a bit about "Space: 1999".
 >

Yes; it looks as though you do...

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.space1999.net/~eagle/brian.html" target="_blank">http://www.space1999.net/~eagle/brian.html</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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<< From: Erik Max Francis max DeleteThis @alcyone.com >>


<< > During the Apollo era there was a T V series "Space 1999"
 > starring Martin Landau that depicted life on a lunar base.
 > At the time it seemed plausible -- it didn't happen.

What, you mean the part where a nuclear waste dump explosion knocked the
Moon out of orbit? >>

No, the part where the waste dump was on the far side of the Moon, and the
explosion dragged the moon towards itself instead of hurtling into the Earth.

And then there was the whole 'the Moon must be going trans light' aspect.

And the 'this week, the Moon is caught in a planet's gravity well, and goes
into orbit. Our heroes have an adventure on the planet, but then have to
leave, because the Moon IS BREAKING OUT OF ORBIT ALL ON IT'S OWN and they have
to catch their ride' plot.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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[RB comment: Response provided both to ABIA and ABLN]

In article <4064BE54.AF95C09E.DeleteThis@alcyone.com>,
Erik Max Francis <max.DeleteThis@alcyone.com> writes:

  >>Starting a rash/abrasion is easy. I don't wish to be rude,
  >>but have you ever experienced chafing from underwear elastic?
 >
 >That's not what a bed sore is. Bed sores are caused because of
 >prolonged pressure between a certain part of the body and the surface
 >it's resting against,

You neglected to answer my question, Eric, and I find that
telling. Being stuck in the same clothing for long duration
without opportunity to change clothing or wash potentially
causes health problems that must be addressed.

I do not remember the details, but I remember that the
United States Skylab contained some form of shower bath.

 >and in long-duration spaceflight there simply will
 >not be any such pressure, whether the capsule is cramped or not,
 >and the current designs will not have nearly cramped capsules as >you seem to
think.
 >
 >And there _are_ causes of long-duration spaceflight -- people have
 >been in space stations for months on end with no similar effects.
 >_Mir_ and similar stations are at least as cramped, if not more,
 >as proposed Mars mission spacecraft.
 >
 >--
 > __ Erik Max Francis

I will wait for the economic and ergonomic (human factors)
analyses before I make further judgments. We have landed
automated Rovers on Mars -- they are wonderful machines
but they do not have a human being's general purpose
utility and curiousity. Human beings have different physical
limitations. To my knowledge you can _not_ put astronauts
into 'suspended animation' (e.g., Larry Niven's stasis fields)
through the rough parts of the journey -- human beings eat,
breathe, potentially experience muscular atrophy and
potentially bruise throughout the journey. IMO biological
limitations will be a real factor in the planning and design of
the proposed Martian mission.

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If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 

Richard Ballard wrote:

 > You neglected to answer my question, Eric, and I find that
 > telling.

What, that I don't bother questions that are obviously irrelevant?
Yeah, it means I'm not prone to wasting my time or yours.

 > Being stuck in the same clothing for long duration
 > without opportunity to change clothing or wash potentially
 > causes health problems that must be addressed.

Nice goalpost shift, it was bed sores you were worried about before,
which aren't physically possible in contemporary long-duration
spaceflight.

 > I do not remember the details, but I remember that the
 > United States Skylab contained some form of shower bath.

Why are you under the delusion that a Mars mission spacecraft would have
to be as cramped as an Apollo capsule, and not less cramped like the
Skylab, Mir, or ISS (which are still pretty darn cramped)? These
stations have had long-duration occupations of the length that you're
talking about but haven't had any problem whatsoever with what you're
suggesting. Why is that?

--
__ Erik Max Francis && max RemoveThis @alcyone.com && <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.alcyone.com/max/" target="_blank">http://www.alcyone.com/max/</a>
/ \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
\__/ Who shall stand guard to the guards themselves?
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I'm only glancing through this discussion, but so far I haven't heard
anyone bring up the dental atrophy problem. Wired published an article a
couple of years ago wherein someone had discovered that rapid tooth
decay is the most pressing problem in a weightless (or, assumedly,
low-grav) environment. I forget what the reasoning is for this (perhaps
it has something to do with the fact that the body is constantly shaving
and padding the walls of all the bones in your body based on the stress
that each bone receives), nor do I remember why the classic "spinning
hoop" craft configurations don't solve the problem, but it's a problem
nonetheless. I would think the solution to this would the same solution
to muscle atrophy, but I could be wrong.

One other topic that might be relevant: There are researchers trying to
figure out how hibernation works, theorizing that the genes for it exist
in humans. Obviously this would be a low-tech form of stasis that would
solve more than one logistic problem for the Mars trip. We're many years
away from actually making such a trip happen, so there's no telling what
new discoveries and technologies will bring it about.
_____________________
w h i t g u r l e y
whitgurley DeleteThis @R-E-M-O-V-E-T-H-I-Shotmail.com
 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 

Whit Gurley wrote:

 > I'm only glancing through this discussion, but so far I haven't heard
 > anyone bring up the dental atrophy problem. Wired published an article
 > a
 > couple of years ago wherein someone had discovered that rapid tooth
 > decay is the most pressing problem in a weightless (or, assumedly,
 > low-grav) environment. I forget what the reasoning is for this
 > (perhaps
 > it has something to do with the fact that the body is constantly
 > shaving
 > and padding the walls of all the bones in your body based on the
 > stress
 > that each bone receives), nor do I remember why the classic "spinning
 > hoop" craft configurations don't solve the problem, but it's a problem
 > nonetheless. I would think the solution to this would the same
 > solution
 > to muscle atrophy, but I could be wrong.

The "spinning hoop" configuration _is_ the solution to muscle atrophy,
either that or a regimen of exercise. All your body expects is
resistance, and it doesn't get that in microgravity unless you
compensate. The "spinning hoop" simulates gravity just fine, provided
the hoop is big enough (if it's not big enough you get disorientation
problems because of the differential speed between your head and your
feet).

There's an immunological effect that appears to occur as well, but no
one's sure why at this point.

--
__ Erik Max Francis && max RemoveThis @alcyone.com && <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.alcyone.com/max/" target="_blank">http://www.alcyone.com/max/</a>
/ \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
\__/ Who shall stand guard to the guards themselves?
-- Juvenal<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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[RB comment: Response provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <40654AF4.663D8B9F DeleteThis @alcyone.com>,
Erik Max Francis <max DeleteThis @alcyone.com> writes:

 >Richard Ballard wrote:
 >
  >>You neglected to answer my question, Eric, and I find that
  >>telling.
 >
 >What, that I don't bother questions that are obviously irrelevant?
 >Yeah, it means I'm not prone to wasting my time or yours.

Once again you are attempting to evade the question, Eric.
Have you ever experienced chafing from underwear elastic?
Underwear elastic can chafe in a near zero gravity
environment. A wrinkle in your underwear can chafe if
you recline on it long enough.

And you chose not to respond to my comment that we have
no stasis field / suspended animation capability, Eric.

  >>Being stuck in the same clothing for long duration
  >>without opportunity to change clothing or wash potentially
  >>causes health problems that must be addressed.
 >
 >Nice goalpost shift, it was bed sores you were worried about before,
 >which aren't physically possible in contemporary long-duration
 >spaceflight.

Eric, not changing bedsheets (neglect/abuse?) complicates bedsore
problems, particularly when situations complicate (a-hem) elimination
of bodily wastes. Not changing your underwear and neglecting
personal hygiene complicates your health and your social
interactions, Eric.

On a related note, Eric, apparently you read Larry Niven. Do
you remember the term 'phermones'? Phermones can be considered
natural organic musk. Have you ever been stuck in an elevator
with somebody wearing a musky cologne that you found objectionable?
If yes, you were the victim of an 'offactory assault'. (Don't
blow any smoke at me, Eric.) Males stuck in an enclosed unwashed
environment might develop instinctive competitive urges if
overexposed to each other's phermones. Men and women overexposed
to each other's phermones in an enclosed unwashed environment might
be sexually distracted. These experiences do _not_ promote mental
acuity, Eric, a mandatory characteristic for astronauts on a
space voyage.

This is the first time I ever have encountered anybody who
does _not_ like soap and water, Eric. I am glad this is
Usenet rather than smellovision.

  >>I do not remember the details, but I remember that the
  >>United States Skylab contained some form of shower bath.
 >
 >Why are you under the delusion that a Mars mission spacecraft would
 >have
 >to be as cramped as an Apollo capsule, and not less cramped like the
 >Skylab, Mir, or ISS (which are still pretty darn cramped)? These
 >stations have had long-duration occupations of the length that you're
 >talking about but haven't had any problem whatsoever with what you're
 >suggesting. Why is that?
 >
 >--
 > __ Erik Max Francis

Show me the implementation funding, Eric. Show me the money.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 

Richard Ballard wrote:

 > Once again you are attempting to evade the question, Eric.
 > Have you ever experienced chafing from underwear elastic?
 > Underwear elastic can chafe in a near zero gravity
 > environment. A wrinkle in your underwear can chafe if
 > you recline on it long enough.

What's that have to do with bed sores?

 > Eric, not changing bedsheets (neglect/abuse?) complicates bedsore
 > problems, particularly when situations complicate (a-hem) elimination
 > of bodily wastes. Not changing your underwear and neglecting
 > personal hygiene complicates your health and your social
 > interactions, Eric.

What's that have to do with with the fact that astronauts have conducted
the long-duration flights that you've claimed they haven't and haven't
had these problems? You're declaring that they're an insoluble
impediment; there's a clear existence proof that they are not.

 > On a related note, Eric, apparently you read Larry Niven.

Yeah, imagine that, I'm reading this in alt.books.larry-niven.

 > Do
 > you remember the term 'phermones'?

The word you're looking for is _pheromones_.

 > Phermones can be considered
 > natural organic musk. Have you ever been stuck in an elevator
 > with somebody wearing a musky cologne that you found objectionable?
 > If yes, you were the victim of an 'offactory assault'. (Don't
 > blow any smoke at me, Eric.) Males stuck in an enclosed unwashed
 > environment might develop instinctive competitive urges if
 > overexposed to each other's phermones. Men and women overexposed
 > to each other's phermones in an enclosed unwashed environment might
 > be sexually distracted. These experiences do _not_ promote mental
 > acuity, Eric, a mandatory characteristic for astronauts on a
 > space voyage.

Some coherence at some point would be useful.

 > This is the first time I ever have encountered anybody who
 > does _not_ like soap and water, Eric. I am glad this is
 > Usenet rather than smellovision.

Congratulations, you jumped to a bizarre conclusion that had nothing to
do with what I was saying.

You said that bed sores would be an impediment to long-duration
spaceflight. The fact that long-duration flights have been conducted
and have had no such problems is proof otherwise. You were wrong,
calling me stinky isn't really going to change that.

 > Show me the implementation funding, Eric. Show me the money.

Implementating funding for what? The "experiment" has already been
conducted.

--
__ Erik Max Francis && max.RemoveThis@alcyone.com && <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.alcyone.com/max/" target="_blank">http://www.alcyone.com/max/</a>
/ \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
\__/ As far as I'm concerned, being any gender is a drag.
-- Patti Smith<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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[RB comment: Response provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <whitgurley-DC9B15.01380727032004.RemoveThis@netnews.comcast.net>,
Whit Gurley <whitgurley.RemoveThis@TxHxExOxPxPxOxSxIxTxExOxFxCxOxLxDmail.com>
writes:

 >I'm only glancing through this discussion, but so far I haven't
 >heard
 >anyone bring up the dental atrophy problem. Wired published an
 >article a
 >couple of years ago wherein someone had discovered that rapid tooth
 >decay is the most pressing problem in a weightless (or, assumedly,
 >low-grav) environment. I forget what the reasoning is for this
 >(perhaps
 >it has something to do with the fact that the body is constantly
 >shaving
 >and padding the walls of all the bones in your body based on the
 >stress
 >that each bone receives), nor do I remember why the classic
 >"spinning
 >hoop" craft configurations don't solve the problem, but it's a
 >problem
 >nonetheless. I would think the solution to this would the same
 >solution
 >to muscle atrophy, but I could be wrong.

I am _not_ qualified to provide dental opinions, but I know no
reason [other than inconvenience brushing teeth or reduction of
salivation (which flushes decay bacteria from the mouth)] that
dental decay would be increased in a near zero gravity environment.
I assume you would use a tube to spit into a waste receptacle
rather than just spitting. I know no reason for reduction of
salivation except dehydration.

I know that the Peace Corps requires sound dental condition
before sending a volunteer overseas. I trust that NASA has
the same competence.

I do not know if space food is puree'd, and I do not know how
quickly the jaw muscles atrophy from lack of use due to _not_
chewing puree'd food. Presumably geriatric medicine knows
this answer.

 >One other topic that might be relevant: There are researchers
 >trying to
 >figure out how hibernation works, theorizing that the genes for it
 >exist
 >in humans. Obviously this would be a low-tech form of stasis that
 >would
 >solve more than one logistic problem for the Mars trip. We're many
 >years
 >away from actually making such a trip happen, so there's no telling
 >what
 >new discoveries and technologies will bring it about.

Hibernation will not stop microbic action in your intestines, with
potentially toxic consequences during hibernation. (Bears do waken
periodically during their winter hibernation.) I am _not_ qualified
to provide medical opinions, but the intestines do contain bacteria
-- you can flush the intestines (dilute the intestinal content),
but you can not sterilize the intestine contents for a several month
period. (Think yogurt with active bacterial cultures -- a healthy
food sometimes used to flood the intestines with healthy intestinal
flora after a case of diarrhea. I am _not_ qualified to provide
dietary opinions.)

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 

[RB comment: Response provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <40654C46.86AA9F73.TakeThisOut@alcyone.com>,
Erik Max Francis <max.TakeThisOut@alcyone.com> writes:

 >The "spinning hoop" configuration _is_ the solution to muscle
 >atrophy,
 >either that or a regimen of exercise. All your body expects is
 >resistance, and it doesn't get that in microgravity unless you
 >compensate. The "spinning hoop" simulates gravity just fine,
 >provided
 >the hoop is big enough (if it's not big enough you get disorientation
 >problems because of the differential speed between your head and your
 >feet).
 >
 >There's an immunological effect that appears to occur as well, but no
 >one's sure why at this point.
 >
 >--
 > __ Erik Max Francis

If I didn't understand the immunological effect I would not
rely on the immunological effect, particularly on a long
space voyage.

And when somebody says "This is the answer ..."
I say "Show me the economic analysis."

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Don't Get Sore ... 

Steerpike wrote:

 > Yes; it looks as though you do...
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.space1999.net/~eagle/brian.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.space1999.net/~eagle/brian.html</font</a>>

Drat!

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