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rball84213

External


Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 31) Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>larry-niven (more info?)

[RB comment: Response supplied both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <40656487.C8124A1.RemoveThis@alcyone.com>,
Erik Max Francis <max.RemoveThis@alcyone.com> writes:

 >Richard Ballard wrote:
 >
  >>Once again you are attempting to evade the question, Eric.
  >>Have you ever experienced chafing from underwear elastic?
  >>Underwear elastic can chafe in a near zero gravity
  >>environment. A wrinkle in your underwear can chafe if
  >>you recline on it long enough.
 >
 >What's that have to do with bed sores?

Skin problems while constrained in a reclining position in
a relatively tiny, full space capsule because that is all
that is affordable. No Star Trek with its transmutation
of energy to matter -- no resupply.

  >>Eric, not changing bedsheets (neglect/abuse?) complicates bedsore
  >>problems, particularly when situations complicate (a-hem)
  >>elimination
  >>of bodily wastes. Not changing your underwear and neglecting
  >>personal hygiene complicates your health and your social
  >>interactions, Eric.
 >
 >What's that have to do with with the fact that astronauts have
 >conducted
 >the long-duration flights that you've claimed they haven't and
 >haven't
 >had these problems? You're declaring that they're an insoluble
 >impediment; there's a clear existence proof that they are not.

Eric, if the Martian capsule on a multimonth duration
round trip journey resembles _a full barrel_ because
that is all that is affordable, we got new problems.

Have you ever visited the Smithstonian Air And Space Museum
in Washington DC, Eric? Have you ever touched the moon rock?
A moon rock is embedded in a massive pedestal -- less than
one square inch surface area is exposed. (Think Excalibur,
Eric.) The Apollo astronauts did not bring back _tons_ of
moon rocks, Eric, because they had mass limitations upon
return. I consider that the precedent, Eric, and compared
to Mars the moon is nearby and has low gravity.

  >>On a related note, Eric, apparently you read Larry Niven.
 >
 >Yeah, imagine that, I'm reading this in alt.books.larry-niven.
 >
  >>Do you remember the term 'phermones'?
 >
 >The word you're looking for is _pheromones_.

Golly, Eric, I misspelled a word. Imagine that. I must have
been distracted by my breakfast. I'm glad the misspelling
is in casual text rather than in an operations manual (or
worse, in a computer program).

  >>Phermones can be considered
  >>natural organic musk. Have you ever been stuck in an elevator
  >>with somebody wearing a musky cologne that you found objectionable?
  >>If yes, you were the victim of an 'offactory assault'.

Oops, 'olfactory'. Another breakfast distraction. But I did
not spill my coffee in my lap -- no mess.

  >>(Don't blow any smoke at me, Eric.) Males stuck in an enclosed
  >>unwashed
  >>environment might develop instinctive competitive urges if
  >>overexposed to each other's phermones. Men and women overexposed
  >>to each other's phermones in an enclosed unwashed environment might
  >>be sexually distracted. These experiences do _not_ promote mental
  >>acuity, Eric, a mandatory characteristic for astronauts on a
  >>space voyage.
 >
 >Some coherence at some point would be useful.

This ain't lasers, Eric -- no solar sail spacecraft launched
by Moon-based lasers ala Larry Niven. All fuel must be carried
aboard the mission with no resupply. Ditto with food, drinking
water and a source of breathable air. No stasis fields ala
Larry Niven -- ya gotta eat, ya gotta drink and ya gotta breathe.

Science fiction plots often center around 'if that technology
existed, how would this social and/or physical environment
change?'. I assume no fundamental physics or medical
breakthroughs between now and the launch of the human mission
to Mars. IMO new pharmacuticals or genetic engineering will
not be relevant to the problems encountered on the Mars mission.

  >>This is the first time I ever have encountered anybody who
  >>does _not_ like soap and water, Eric. I am glad this is
  >>Usenet rather than smellovision.
 >
 >Congratulations, you jumped to a bizarre conclusion that had
 >nothing to
 >do with what I was saying.

Did you lose your sense of humor, Eric? Perhaps you were
distracted by _your_ breakfast. Given the choice between not
important misspellings and loss of sense of humor, I'd choose
the misspellings every time. Of course I'm just hacking on
Usenet -- I am not an astronaut depending upon a space capsule
to keep me alive on a round trip voyage to Mars.

 >You said that bed sores would be an impediment to long-duration
 >spaceflight. The fact that long-duration flights have been conducted
 >and have had no such problems is proof otherwise. You were wrong,
 >calling me stinky isn't really going to change that.

There have been _no_ multimonth space journeys conducted
in the equivalent of the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo spacecraft,
Eric. I am _not_ convinced that more spacious accommodations
will be affordable on a mission carrying humans to Mars.

  >>Show me the implementation funding, Eric. Show me the money.
 >
 >Implementating funding for what? The "experiment" has already been
 >conducted.
 >
 >--
 > __ Erik Max Francis

There have been NO multimonth continuous experiments
without _resupply_, Eric. Think of an oceangoing
wooden sailing ship departing for the new world.
What ya got is all ya get until you return -- there is
no food on Mars, no drinking water (to my knowledge),
the Martian atmosphere is not breathable (to my knowledge)
and no fuel supply on Mars (to my knowledge).

Almost makes you wonder if a Martian voyage might be
preceded by a mission that achieves Martian orbit with
the sole purpose of resupply once the capsule carrying
humans arrives in Martian orbit -- get the groceries,
etc. to Mars first safely.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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max

External


Since: Jul 09, 2003
Posts: 169



(Msg. 32) Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 5:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Richard Ballard wrote:

 > Skin problems while constrained in a reclining position in
 > a relatively tiny, full space capsule because that is all
 > that is affordable. No Star Trek with its transmutation
 > of energy to matter -- no resupply.

There's no gravity pressing you into your seat, so this is not true.

Second, why have these problems not happened in Skylab, Mir, and ISS
during long-duration stays? People _have_ stayed "tens of days," just
like you were saying they hadn't, yet no one's had this problem with
hygiene. Why are you ignoring that?

 > Have you ever visited the Smithstonian Air And Space Museum
 > in Washington DC, Eric? Have you ever touched the moon rock?
 > A moon rock is embedded in a massive pedestal -- less than
 > one square inch surface area is exposed. (Think Excalibur,
 > Eric.) The Apollo astronauts did not bring back _tons_ of
 > moon rocks, Eric, because they had mass limitations upon
 > return.

Yes, the total amount was about 400 kg, or a little less than half a
metric tonne.

 > I consider that the precedent, Eric, and compared
 > to Mars the moon is nearby and has low gravity.

What do you think this has to do with anything?

 > There have been _no_ multimonth space journeys conducted
 > in the equivalent of the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo spacecraft,
 > Eric.

No, there haven't. And since tiny capsules like that will not be what
journey to Mars, it's irrelevant.

 > I am _not_ convinced that more spacious accommodations
 > will be affordable on a mission carrying humans to Mars.

Since you're not involved with the planning of Mars manned missions in
any way, and haven't bothered doing your research on what the proposals
are, I don't see why anyone should care what you are convinced about.

--
__ Erik Max Francis && max.RemoveThis@alcyone.com && <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.alcyone.com/max/" target="_blank">http://www.alcyone.com/max/</a>
/ \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
\__/ Everything's gonna be all right / Everything's gonna be okay
-- Sweetbox<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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rball84213

External


Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 33) Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 7:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

[RB comment: Provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

IMO former President Kennedy's decision to land Americans
on the moon (a decision that several successive Presidents
supported) initially was a response to the Cold War and to the
Cuban Missile Crisis. IMO President Kennedy's decision was
a de facto extension of the Monroe Doctrine to near space.

The Mercury / Gemini / Apollo programs brought great advances
in computers, in materials science and in biomedicine, but
IMO these programs were _not_ initiated as science investment
programs. Americans like NASA, but IMO these programs were
initiated to accomplish United States dominance of near space.

I observe no equivalent motivation for a mission carrying humans
to Mars -- I observe no equivalent cost justification. As a result,
I believe that economic analyses will be _very_ important to the
hu/manned Mars missions' design and implementation.

And as I alluded to earlier, I observe no relevant _fundamental_
scientific discoveries since the Apollo program. No Star Trek
transporter and energy-to-matter transmutation for resupply.
Star Trek's gravity generators (which raise interesting
inertial mass reduction questions) do not exist. We will be
applying faster computers plus Apollo technology to a Mars
mission. [Deep space telecommunications capabilities might
have improved -- greater power in a noisier terrestrial
environment (e.g., cellular telephones).] I know no
_relevant and significant_ materials science or biomedical
advances since Apollo. IMO new pharmacuticals and genetic
engineering are _not_ applicable to the Mars missions'
_major_ problems.

That is why I (a taxpayer) keep asking "What can we afford?"

More below.

In article <20040327084641.12851.00000069.TakeThisOut@mb-m06.aol.com>,
rball84213.TakeThisOut@aol.com (Richard Ballard) writes:

 >In article <40656487.C8124A1.TakeThisOut@alcyone.com>,
 >Erik Max Francis <max.TakeThisOut@alcyone.com> writes:
 >
  >>Richard Ballard wrote:
  >>
   >>>Once again you are attempting to evade the question, Eric.
   >>>Have you ever experienced chafing from underwear elastic?
   >>>Underwear elastic can chafe in a near zero gravity
   >>>environment. A wrinkle in your underwear can chafe if
   >>>you recline on it long enough.
  >>
  >>What's that have to do with bed sores?
 >
 >Skin problems while constrained in a reclining position in
 >a relatively tiny, full space capsule because that is all
 >that is affordable. No Star Trek with its transmutation
 >of energy to matter -- no resupply.
 >
   >>>Eric, not changing bedsheets (neglect/abuse?) complicates bedsore
   >>>problems, particularly when situations complicate (a-hem)
   >>>elimination
   >>>of bodily wastes. Not changing your underwear and neglecting
   >>>personal hygiene complicates your health and your social
   >>>interactions, Eric.
  >>
  >>What's that have to do with with the fact that astronauts have
  >>conducted
  >>the long-duration flights that you've claimed they haven't and
  >>haven't
  >>had these problems? You're declaring that they're an insoluble
  >>impediment; there's a clear existence proof that they are not.
 >
 >Eric, if the Martian capsule on a multimonth duration
 >round trip journey resembles _a full barrel_ because
 >that is all that is affordable, we got new problems.
 >
 >Have you ever visited the Smithstonian Air And Space Museum
 >in Washington DC, Eric? Have you ever touched the moon rock?
 >A moon rock is embedded in a massive pedestal -- less than
 >one square inch surface area is exposed. (Think Excalibur,
 >Eric.) The Apollo astronauts did not bring back _tons_ of
 >moon rocks, Eric, because they had mass limitations upon
 >return. I consider that the precedent, Eric, and compared
 >to Mars the moon is nearby and has low gravity.
 >
   >>>On a related note, Eric, apparently you read Larry Niven.
  >>
  >>Yeah, imagine that, I'm reading this in alt.books.larry-niven.
  >>
   >>>Do you remember the term 'phermones'?
  >>
  >>The word you're looking for is _pheromones_.
 >
 >Golly, Eric, I misspelled a word. Imagine that. I must have
 >been distracted by my breakfast. I'm glad the misspelling
 >is in casual text rather than in an operations manual (or
 >worse, in a computer program).
 >
   >>>Phermones can be considered
   >>>natural organic musk. Have you ever been stuck in an elevator
   >>>with somebody wearing a musky cologne that you found objectionable?
   >>>If yes, you were the victim of an 'offactory assault'.
 >
 >Oops, 'olfactory'. Another breakfast distraction. But I did
 >not spill my coffee in my lap -- no mess.
 >
   >>>(Don't blow any smoke at me, Eric.) Males stuck in an enclosed
   >>>unwashed
   >>>environment might develop instinctive competitive urges if
   >>>overexposed to each other's phermones. Men and women overexposed
   >>>to each other's phermones in an enclosed unwashed environment might
   >>>be sexually distracted. These experiences do _not_ promote mental
   >>>acuity, Eric, a mandatory characteristic for astronauts on a
   >>>space voyage.
  >>
  >>Some coherence at some point would be useful.
 >
 >This ain't lasers, Eric -- no solar sail spacecraft launched
 >by Moon-based lasers ala Larry Niven. All fuel must be carried
 >aboard the mission with no resupply. Ditto with food, drinking
 >water and a source of breathable air. No stasis fields ala
 >Larry Niven -- ya gotta eat, ya gotta drink and ya gotta breathe.
 >
 >Science fiction plots often center around 'if that technology
 >existed, how would this social and/or physical environment
 >change?'. I assume no fundamental physics or medical
 >breakthroughs between now and the launch of the human mission
 >to Mars. IMO new pharmacuticals or genetic engineering will
 >not be relevant to the problems encountered on the Mars mission.
 >
   >>>This is the first time I ever have encountered anybody who
   >>>does _not_ like soap and water, Eric. I am glad this is
   >>>Usenet rather than smellovision.
  >>
  >>Congratulations, you jumped to a bizarre conclusion that had
  >>nothing to
  >>do with what I was saying.
 >
 >Did you lose your sense of humor, Eric? Perhaps you were
 >distracted by _your_ breakfast. Given the choice between not
 >important misspellings and loss of sense of humor, I'd choose
 >the misspellings every time. Of course I'm just hacking on
 >Usenet -- I am not an astronaut depending upon a space capsule
 >to keep me alive on a round trip voyage to Mars.
 >
  >>You said that bed sores would be an impediment to long-duration
  >>spaceflight. The fact that long-duration flights have been
  >>conducted
  >>and have had no such problems is proof otherwise. You were wrong,
  >>calling me stinky isn't really going to change that.
 >
 >There have been _no_ multimonth space journeys conducted
 >in the equivalent of the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo spacecraft,
 >Eric. I am _not_ convinced that more spacious accommodations
 >will be affordable on a mission carrying humans to Mars.
 >
   >>>Show me the implementation funding, Eric. Show me the money.
  >>
  >>Implementating funding for what? The "experiment" has already been
  >>conducted.
  >>
  >>--
  >> __ Erik Max Francis
 >
 >There have been NO multimonth continuous experiments
 >without _resupply_, Eric. Think of an oceangoing
 >wooden sailing ship departing for the new world.
 >What ya got is all ya get until you return -- there is
 >no food on Mars, no drinking water (to my knowledge),
 >the Martian atmosphere is not breathable (to my knowledge)
 >and no fuel supply on Mars (to my knowledge).

When a wooden sailing ship set out to find new worlds, there
was no guarantee the crew would find land. If they found land
there was no guarantee the crew would find fresh water -- the
coastline might be desert. And there was no guarantee that
the crew would catch a significant amount of fish. There was
no resupply guarantee in a wooden sailing ship seeking
new worlds.

 >Almost makes you wonder if a Martian voyage might be
 >preceded by a mission that achieves Martian orbit with
 >the sole purpose of resupply once the capsule carrying
 >humans arrives in Martian orbit -- get the groceries,
 >etc. to Mars first safely.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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whitgurley

External


Since: Mar 01, 2004
Posts: 7



(Msg. 34) Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 10:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <20040327061719.17713.00000069 DeleteThis @mb-m28.aol.com>,
rball84213 DeleteThis @aol.com (Richard Ballard) wrote:

 > I am _not_ qualified to provide dental opinions, but I know no
 > reason [other than inconvenience brushing teeth or reduction of
 > salivation (which flushes decay bacteria from the mouth)] that
 > dental decay would be increased in a near zero gravity environment.

<snip>

I'm not finding the Wired article, but here's an article that mentions
the problem (search for "mars"):
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.cda.org/member/pubs/journal/jour1101/impress.html" target="_blank">http://www.cda.org/member/pubs/journal/jour1101/impress.html</a>

My rationale seems to be accurate - the problem has to do with loss of
bone mass and calcium. No mention here of emulated gravity being a
solution, but then it doesn't go into much detail. Shame I can't find
the Wired article.
_____________________
w h i t g u r l e y
whitgurley DeleteThis @R-E-M-O-V-E-T-H-I-Shotmail.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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rball84213

External


Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 35) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 12:49 am
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[RB comment: Response provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <whitgurley-6C2CFB.11015527032004 DeleteThis @netnews.comcast.net>,
Whit Gurley <whitgurley DeleteThis @TxHxExOxPxPxOxSxIxTxExOxFxCxOxLxDmail.com>
writes:

 >In article <20040327061719.17713.00000069 DeleteThis @mb-m28.aol.com>,
 > rball84213 DeleteThis @aol.com (Richard Ballard) wrote:
 >
  >>I am _not_ qualified to provide dental opinions, but I know no
  >>reason [other than inconvenience brushing teeth or reduction of
  >>salivation (which flushes decay bacteria from the mouth)] that
  >>dental decay would be increased in a near zero gravity environment.
 >
 ><snip>

You snipped my comment about dehydration reducing saliva's
rinsing decay-causing bacteria from the human mouth in case of
drinking water rationing.

 >I'm not finding the Wired article, but here's an article that
 >mentions
 >the problem (search for "mars"):
<RB snipped URL>
 >
 >My rationale seems to be accurate - the problem has to do with loss
 >of
 >bone mass and calcium. No mention here of emulated gravity being a
 >solution, but then it doesn't go into much detail. Shame I can't
 >find
 >the Wired article.

As I mentioned earlier, I am _not_ qualified to provide dental
opinions. To my knowledge tooth enamel is not subject to
calcium leeching by the body.

I am _not_ qualified to provide medical opinions, but I know
that in cases of dietary calcium deficiency the body can leech
soluble calcium from the bones, weakening bone rigidity and
strength (e.g., osteoporosis). I do not know how long this
process takes, and whether the effect would be serious on
a several month long space journey.

As I mentioned earlier, I am _not_ qualified to provide medical
opinions, but I seem to remember that the opposite problem
exists: the formation of dysfunctional calcium deposits in
unused skeletal joints. A sedentary (e.g., bedridden) individual
can get calcium deposits in their skeletal joints, simulating
arthritis. I do not know if astronauts forced by tight quarters
to continually recline on acceleration couchs with no physical
exercise would experience these skeletal dysfunctional calcium
deposits during a several month space voyage.

Too little dietary calcium and astronauts might get calcium loss
in bones with resulting loss of skeletal strength. Too much dietary
calcium with no physical exercise and astronauts might get
dysfunctional calcium deposits in joints with resulting motion
pain and problems. I do not know the rate at which these maladies
occur -- presumably space medicine and geriatric medicine already
knows the answers.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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tberk

External


Since: Mar 11, 2004
Posts: 87



(Msg. 36) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 3:59 am
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Brian L Johnson wrote:

 > Steerpike wrote:
 >
  >> Yes; it looks as though you do...
  >>
<font color=green>  >> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.space1999.net/~eagle/brian.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.space1999.net/~eagle/brian.html</font</a>>
 >
 >
 > Drat! Smile
 >


That's the kind of being 'outed' one can deal with.

TBerk<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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tberk

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Since: Mar 11, 2004
Posts: 87



(Msg. 37) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:15 am
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Richard Ballard wrote:

<snip>

 > I am _not_ qualified...

This capability extends much farther than you are letting on.

I get a sense of 'knuckleheadedness' from you.


I sounds almost childlike in it's whining.


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rball84213

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Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 38) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:08 am
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[RB comment: Response provided to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <4065FB8E.4F5E225F DeleteThis @alcyone.com>,
Erik Max Francis <max DeleteThis @alcyone.com> writes:

 >Richard Ballard wrote:
 >
  >>Skin problems while constrained in a reclining position in
  >>a relatively tiny, full space capsule because that is all
  >>that is affordable. No Star Trek with its transmutation
  >>of energy to matter -- no resupply.
 >
 >There's no gravity pressing you into your seat, so this is not true.

Eric, I tire of your childish denials.

As I mentioned earlier, excessively tight underwear elastic
can chafe your skin in any environment. And acceleration
couches are designed to cushion against forces generated
by rocket thrust in addition to gravity (if any).

And there is no Star Trek transporter to beam supplies aboard
a Mars mission craft from a remote location -- no resupply
without a separate advance resupply cacheing mission.

 >Second, why have these problems not happened in Skylab, Mir, and ISS
 >during long-duration stays? People _have_ stayed "tens of days,"
 >just
 >like you were saying they hadn't, yet no one's had this problem with
 >hygiene. Why are you ignoring that?

Skylab had a shower, Eric. I do not know the history of Mir, but
I know it is bigger than the Apollo spacecraft -- room for spare
clothing and for washing and changing clothing. Ditto the
International Space Station even in its early stages. And both
Mir and the International Space Station get resupplied.

Eric, some naval vessels have oceanwater showers -- they can
not afford to waste fresh water for showers. This indicates to
me that spacecraft might have similar fresh water problems.

  >>Have you ever visited the Smithstonian Air And Space Museum
  >>in Washington DC, Eric? Have you ever touched the moon rock?
  >>A moon rock is embedded in a massive pedestal -- less than
  >>one square inch surface area is exposed. (Think Excalibur,
  >>Eric.) The Apollo astronauts did not bring back _tons_ of
  >>moon rocks, Eric, because they had mass limitations upon
  >>return.
 >
 >Yes, the total amount was about 400 kg, or a little less than half a
 >metric tonne.

I am skeptical, Eric. I seem to remember discussion of souvenir
dimes and postage stamps that somebody stowed aboard one
of the Lunar Landers. And that Smithsonian moon rock is awfully
tiny -- if we had 400 kg. of moon rocks IMO the Smithsonian would
merit a bigger sample (for the viewing taxpayers).

  >>I consider that the precedent, Eric, and compared
  >>to Mars the moon is nearby and has low gravity.
 >
 >What do you think this has to do with anything?

The lunar journey is much easier than the Martian journey.
Eric, this is common sense. Stop your automated denials.
You respond like 2001's HAL on a bad day ...

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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max

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Since: Jul 09, 2003
Posts: 169



(Msg. 39) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:08 am
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Richard Ballard wrote:

 > As I mentioned earlier, excessively tight underwear elastic
 > can chafe your skin in any environment. And acceleration
 > couches are designed to cushion against forces generated
 > by rocket thrust in addition to gravity (if any).

And the vast majority of a Mars trip will be spent in microgravity, just
like in a space station. You are likening two things that will not be
the same in real life, so the parallels you find between them are
irrelevant.

 > Skylab had a shower, Eric. I do not know the history of Mir, but
 > I know it is bigger than the Apollo spacecraft -- room for spare
 > clothing and for washing and changing clothing. Ditto the
 > International Space Station even in its early stages. And both
 > Mir and the International Space Station get resupplied.

So what? The planned Mars spacecraft are much more like one of these
space stations than an Apollo capsule. The fact that you wish to remain
ignorant and not look up the facts notwithstanding.

 > I am skeptical, Eric. I seem to remember discussion of souvenir
 > dimes and postage stamps that somebody stowed aboard one
 > of the Lunar Landers. And that Smithsonian moon rock is awfully
 > tiny -- if we had 400 kg. of moon rocks IMO the Smithsonian would
 > merit a bigger sample (for the viewing taxpayers).

Again, your total lack of ability to do elementary research is making
you look foolish.

It would help if your excessive desire to blabber at long length as well
as debate points in an argument were coupled with the tiniest bit of
ability to actually do research on your own. So far you've indicated
that you know next to nothing about Gemini, Apollo, the existing space
stations, the currently proposed Mars missions, nor even the most
trivial facts about manned interplanetary spacecraft.

What's next, your complaints about how relativity is wrong?

--
__ Erik Max Francis && max DeleteThis @alcyone.com && <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.alcyone.com/max/" target="_blank">http://www.alcyone.com/max/</a>
/ \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
\__/ Nothing you have said / Is revelation
-- The Russian, _Chess_<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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rball84213

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Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 40) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 5:06 pm
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Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

[RB comment: Response provided both to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <406674D4.45CF3C48.DeleteThis@alcyone.com>,
Erik Max Francis <max.DeleteThis@alcyone.com> writes:

 >Richard Ballard wrote:
 >
  >>As I mentioned earlier, excessively tight underwear elastic
  >>can chafe your skin in any environment. And acceleration
  >>couches are designed to cushion against forces generated
  >>by rocket thrust in addition to gravity (if any).
 >
 >And the vast majority of a Mars trip will be spent in microgravity,
 >just
 >like in a space station. You are likening two things that will not
 >be
 >the same in real life, so the parallels you find between them are
 >irrelevant.

Eric, my economics-based opinion is that the majority of
any hu/manned voyage to Mars will be spent wearing
relatively uncomfortable pressure suits with the possibility
of chafing complicated by difficulty in eliminating bodily
wastes and in washing. Constipation could be a problem if
fresh water rationing is necessary -- things happen on a
multimonth voyage without resupply. And pressure suits are
not double knits, Eric -- you don't just slip them on and off.

Eric, the last two decades of the United States hu/manned
space program have been near space using the Space Shuttle.
From a volume ergonomic standpoint the Space Shuttle is roomy.
Now the United States is discussing a hu/manned voyage to
Mars, and I am _not_ convinced that we can afford to provide
Space Shuttle quality accommodations on a hu/manned Martian
mission. In a sense we are going back into the engineering
archives, dusting off the Apollo records and restarting.
I know _no relevant fundamental scientific or engineering
breakthroughs_ that have occured since the end of the Apollo
missions. Faster computers and better (?) communications
are not major helpers on a Martian mission.

I do _not_ observe political or economic motivation for deluxe
accommodations on a Martian mission-- the United States domestic
economy is weak and it is increasingly difficult to justify pure
research not designed to answer specific questions with economic
payoffs. (As a counterexample, the Space Shuttle is the spacetruck
that allows the United States to maintain its near space
infrastructure -- telecommunications, etc.) And I do _not_ observe
relevant scientific or engineering breakthroughs since Apollo.
Motivation and breakthroughs are the _relevant_ topics, Eric.
Address those two topics, Eric -- your uncorroborated denials
do not warrant wasting my time.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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lvpokerplayer

External


Since: Feb 08, 2004
Posts: 64



(Msg. 41) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

 >From: rball84213 RemoveThis @aol.com (Richard Ballard)

 >Has anybody discussed how an astronaut forced to continually
 >wear a pressure suit and recline within a small space capsule
 >for tens of days will avoid developing bedsores?
 >

As others have pointed out, a Mars mission will require more than just tens of
days, unless we have a continuous thrust system such as an ion drive. This has
been used in the Deep Space One mission (not to be confused with Deep Space
Nine) and at least one communications satellite.
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://hs.onysd.wednet.edu/clubs/astroweb/club/news/deep_space_1.html" target="_blank">http://hs.onysd.wednet.edu/clubs/astroweb/club/news/deep_space_1.html</a> Even
with this, I think mission time will be too long for a small capsule approach.
In Expanded Universe Robert A. Heinlein calculated the travel time to Mars
using constant boosts of 1 g, 1/10 g, 1/100 g, and 1/000 g. At one g the round
trip time is 4.59 days, but this is out of the question. We do not even have
any good theories as to how to achieve a 1 g continuous boost over a period of
days. I think even 1/10 g is unattainable, and that results in a round trip of
14.5 days. MAYBE this is doable in a small capsule, but it is stretching
things. A more realistic acceleration of 1/100 g gives a round trip of 45.9
days, and I think that is out of the question. At 1/1000 g, the trip is 145
days, and I think that might be our most realistic assumption for a continuous
boost with current technology.

Without continuous propulsion, it is out of the question. Months at least
would be needed each way. If we use a Hohmann minimum energy orbit, the travel
time is about 8.5 months each way. <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://makeashorterlink.com/?K2B4267D7" target="_blank">http://makeashorterlink.com/?K2B4267D7</a> If
we are willing to use more fuel we can get there faster, but any realistic fuel
consumption still means a mission much too long for a small capsule to work.
This is simply not an option for a Mars mission. Both physically and mentally,
staying in an acceleration couch while wearing a pressure suit for that length
of time is out of the question. The astronaut would be very weak and ill at
best, and might not even live through the experience. He certainly would be in
no shape to walk on Mars, if he did live that long. I also doubt if there is
anyone who could remain sane for that long under those conditions.

I don't think direct lift off from Earth is an option either. I think the
heaviest booster we have ever made was the Saturn V. I doubt if even one of
these could launch the mission. Even if we did assume one person, smallest
possible capsule with him strapped to the couch all the way, no landing just
orbit and return, minimum possible life support, and the hell with health or
sanity, even then I don't think a Saturn V could have launched the mission.

Several launches will be necessary to assemble the mission. I am guessing that
trying to take along consumables will be out of the question, even if it is a
one person mission. A more practical idea would probably be hydroponics for
food and oxygen. I don't think these launches should come from the Earth
though. I think we should build a colony on the moon, then use it to build and
launch the Mars mission. Some things will have to come from Earth, for example
computer chips. I don't think these will be manufactured by a lunar colony any
time in the near future. Still, they can make and launch the massive stuff,
such as the structure of the craft itself. We can probably use and
electromagnetic mass driver for these launches, instead of chemical fuel. The
moon has plenty of oxygen (the crust is 43% oxygen by weight) but the fuel
itself is lacking in the Lunar crust. Instead of trying to extract hydrogen
(50 parts per million) or other rare and hard to get stuff for fuel, a mass
driver looks a lot more practical.

I think magnesium could be used as ion fuel. It is present in sufficient
amounts (about 5% by weight) and has a fairly low boiling temperature. It
should be possible to use a solar array to vaporize it, then shoot it out as an
ion stream for continuous propulsion. The Deep Space One mission uses xenon,
but that is not present at all in the lunar crust. The solar panels for the
mission can probably be made on the moon too, instead of launched from Earth.
They will already be using hydroponics for their own food and oxygen needs, so
setting them up in this craft should be simple enough. Ammonium nitrate for
plant food might need to come from Earth. What I am guessing is that the lunar
colony could build most of the stuff for this ship, and some minimal stuff
comes from Earth, especially the electronics needed to get into Earth orbit.
Then it is flown into Earth orbit, where launches can rendezvous with the ship
in order to complete the electronics, send up ammonium nitrate and whatever
else is needed for hydroponics (not seeds, these were already sent from Lunar
launches), crew, various scientific probes and equipment, and fuel for the
landers. I have tried to figure out how to get this from Luna, but I don't see
a way. Liquid oxygen is not practical, because it requires cryogenic storage
and even with the best storage it boils off over time. I think trying to store
it as high pressure gas would be too bulky to be practical. The Apollo
missions used hydrazine for fuel and nitrogen tetroxide as oxidizer. Nitrogen
is present in the lunar crust at 100 PPM, twice as much as hydrogen. Possibly
we could make the nitrogen tetroxide on the moon. Hydrazine (N2H4) uses two
elements that are rare on the moon. UDMH ((CH3)2NNH2), another fuel used by
Apollo, adds carbon to the list of rare stuff we need. Alcohol needs carbon
(another 100 PPM substance) and hydrogen. I'm guessing that if we want to land
on Mars, lander fuel needs to come from Earth. Possibly they would only send
the needed rare elements, and we could synthesize it onboard, with Lunar
oxygen?

I do have one somewhat wild idea for lander fuel, but I doubt if it is
practical. Here it is, can anyone with engineering knowlege tell me if it
might work? Magnesium and aluminum both burn, and both are present in the
Lunar crust. Could a hybrid solid/liquid rocket be built? It would have a
combustion chamber similar to the Space Shuttle solid rocket boosters, but
lined with aluminum, magnesium, or an alloy of these two. Then we pump in
oxidizer (liquid oxygen for short missions, a more storable oxidizer such as
N2O4 for longer ones) and ignite it. Would we get enough thrust to make it
work as a rocket? We can vary the thrust by controlling the amount of oxidizer
pumped in, and start and stop it, unlike most solid fuel rockets.

The best part is that I think the cost of a lunar colony would be similar to
trying to base a Mars mission from Earth. At the end though, we have both a
colony and a Mars mission. With Earth basing, all we have is a Mars mission.
I think a lunar colony could put together a much larger mission, too.

Over on alt.fan.heinlein, I have discussed my ideas for a lunar colony fairly
extensively. I have put them into a text file, which I will now post here in a
new thread. Any and all comments are welcome.

--
Ferengi rule of acquisition #192: Never cheat a Klingon...unless you're sure
you can get away with it.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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rball84213

External


Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 42) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 7:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Don't Get Sore ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

[RB comment: Response provided to ABIA, ABLN and AFH ]

In article <20040328090559.01766.00000060.TakeThisOut@mb-m15.aol.com>,
rball84213.TakeThisOut@aol.com (Richard Ballard) writes:

 >In article <406674D4.45CF3C48.TakeThisOut@alcyone.com>,
 >Erik Max Francis <max.TakeThisOut@alcyone.com> writes:
 >
  >>Richard Ballard wrote:
  >>
   >>>As I mentioned earlier, excessively tight underwear elastic
   >>>can chafe your skin in any environment. And acceleration
   >>>couches are designed to cushion against forces generated
   >>>by rocket thrust in addition to gravity (if any).
  >>
  >>And the vast majority of a Mars trip will be spent in microgravity,
  >>just
  >>like in a space station. You are likening two things that will not
  >>be
  >>the same in real life, so the parallels you find between them are
  >>irrelevant.
 >
 >Eric, my economics-based opinion is that the majority of
 >any hu/manned voyage to Mars will be spent wearing
 >relatively uncomfortable pressure suits with the possibility
 >of chafing complicated by difficulty in eliminating bodily
 >wastes and in washing. Constipation could be a problem if
 >fresh water rationing is necessary -- things happen on a
 >multimonth voyage without resupply. And pressure suits are
 >not double knits, Eric -- you don't just slip them on and off.

On the theme of 'Things Happen', I merely will reference the
wonderful space film "Silent Running" starring Bruce Dern.
In a long space voyage some contingencies will _not_ be
anticipated and some spare resources are necessary -- you
can not burn all your resources before liftoff.

 >Eric, the last two decades of the United States hu/manned
 >space program have been near space using the Space Shuttle.
 >From a volume ergonomic standpoint the Space Shuttle is roomy.
 >Now the United States is discussing a hu/manned voyage to
 >Mars, and I am _not_ convinced that we can afford to provide
 >Space Shuttle quality accommodations on a hu/manned Martian
 >mission. In a sense we are going back into the engineering
 >archives, dusting off the Apollo records and restarting.
 >I know _no relevant fundamental scientific or engineering
 >breakthroughs_ that have occured since the end of the Apollo
 >missions. Faster computers and better (?) communications
 >are not major helpers on a Martian mission.
 >
 >I do _not_ observe political or economic motivation for deluxe
 >accommodations on a Martian mission-- the United States domestic
 >economy is weak and it is increasingly difficult to justify pure
 >research not designed to answer specific questions with economic
 >payoffs. (As a counterexample, the Space Shuttle is the spacetruck
 >that allows the United States to maintain its near space
 >infrastructure -- telecommunications, etc.) And I do _not_ observe
 >relevant scientific or engineering breakthroughs since Apollo.
 >Motivation and breakthroughs are the _relevant_ topics, Eric.
 >Address those two topics, Eric -- your uncorroborated denials
 >do not warrant wasting my time.

Browsing Google.com led me to Message-ID:
<20040325154745.22447.00000070.TakeThisOut@mb-m14.aol.com> from
lvpokerplayer.TakeThisOut@aol.com which discusses _in detail_ some
technical and ergonomic limitations that a hu/manned mission
to Mars must overcome. Clearly other people have/are addressing
these limitations in greater depth than I can. My thanks to
LV Poker Player for corroborating my concerns. Now I'm
gonna move to the Usenet sidelines and watch.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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whitgurley

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Since: Mar 01, 2004
Posts: 7



(Msg. 43) Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:34 pm
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In article <20040327164921.12501.00006978.DeleteThis@mb-m04.aol.com>,
rball84213.DeleteThis@aol.com (Richard Ballard) wrote:

 > You snipped my comment about dehydration reducing saliva's
 > rinsing decay-causing bacteria from the human mouth in case of
 > drinking water rationing.

....because there's no reason for me to repeat parts of your message that
I am not responding to. That statement does not negate the
bone-loss-related tooth decay problem.

 > As I mentioned earlier, I am _not_ qualified to provide dental
 > opinions. To my knowledge tooth enamel is not subject to
 > calcium leeching by the body.

If you're not qualitfied to provide an opinion then why are you
disputing two articles that claim that this is a definite problem?
Neither article said that it couldn't be tackled but both were sure that
it did exist. I'm sure Cmdr. Steinberg *is* qualified to provide dental
opinions. Regarless, I'm _not_ qualified to discuss the issue in detail
(nor do I particularly care about it) - I just thought I'd bring it to
everyone's attention.

On another note, I am certain that I speak for all of Usenet when I ask
you to shut up about the "_not_ qualified" crap already, we heard you
the first time.
_____________________
w h i t g u r l e y
whitgurley.DeleteThis@R-E-M-O-V-E-T-H-I-Shotmail.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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jonored

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Since: Mar 28, 2004
Posts: 16



(Msg. 44) Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:40 am
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"I'm still not convinced that calcium is leeched from the teeth at the
same time it is leeched from the bones. I think I understand why the
bones experience calcium loss: on Earth, the bones are constantly in
need of repair due to the gravitational stress on them. In space, this
stress is absent."

Actually, if i recall correctly, bones are set up as a continuously
adapting structure that optomizes the resource use of the bones against
the stresses they are coping with. They are pretty much constantly being
rebuilt, either by being added to or subtracted from to adust for changes
in the use and stress being placed on it. In space, however, these
stresses are reduced to almost nil, and so the bone rebuilding system in
the body optomizes for the new conditions. It is not set up to cope with
the idea that gravity will suddenly go up again, as it did not have this
to deal with gravity reduction on a long time scale when it was
developing.

How this might apply has to do with whether or not teeth use the same
mechanism, or are even experiencing a reduction in stresses. They are
primarily cutting and crushing implements, rather than support members, so
they aren't experiencing disuse like the bones are.

Hmmm... well, i should probably cite something:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://guide.stanford.edu/Projects/03projects/jacobs1.html" target="_blank">http://guide.stanford.edu/Projects/03projects/jacobs1.html</a>

Anyhow, that's all for now.

  -Jonathan<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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rball84213

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Since: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 210



(Msg. 45) Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:44 am
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[RB comment: Response supplied to ABIA and ABLN ]

In article <whitgurley-798ABB.10344528032004 DeleteThis @netnews.comcast.net>,
Whit Gurley <whitgurley DeleteThis @TxHxExOxPxPxOxSxIxTxExOxFxCxOxLxDmail.com>
writes:

 >In article <20040327164921.12501.00006978 DeleteThis @mb-m04.aol.com>,
 >rball84213@aol.com (Richard Ballard) wrote:
 >
  >>You snipped my comment about dehydration reducing saliva's
  >>rinsing decay-causing bacteria from the human mouth in case of
  >>drinking water rationing.
 >
 >...because there's no reason for me to repeat parts of your message
 >that I am not responding to. That statement does not negate the
 >bone-loss-related tooth decay problem.

Bone loss (in the jaw which can cause tooth looseness and loss)
does _not_ equate to tooth decay. Teeth are different material
than bone. Bone contains _no enamel_.

  >>As I mentioned earlier, I am _not_ qualified to provide dental
  >>opinions. To my knowledge tooth enamel is not subject to
  >>calcium leeching by the body.
 >
 >If you're not qualitfied to provide an opinion then why are you
 >disputing two articles that claim that this is a definite problem?

Because I am _not_ totally ignorant on the subject, and
I do _not_ need to read your articles to explain my knowledge.

"All Rights Reserved"?
If I 'right' must I reserve?

I got no problems.
Other people got problems.
00: 21 _8 02 03/35 06 09

Richard Ballard MSEE CNA4 KD0AZ
--
Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security
Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.amazon.com" target="_blank">www.amazon.com</a>
Last book review: "Guerrilla Television" by Michael Shamberg<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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