Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West?

coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:

> if the jealousy for immortality was in the stewards
> i think they would not want a great deal of contact

The Stewards could also have received this information directly from
Saruman or Gandalf. If they declared themselves to the Elven leaders,
they might also have done so the the Stewards.

-JJ
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"Jussi Jaatinen" <1 RemoveThis @1.au> wrote in message news:3F827B20.9A43585E@1.au...
>
>
> This has probably been addressed here previously, but did the Steward of
> Gondor know Saruman was a maia emissary of the Valar when he allowed him
> to settle in Orthanc? We're told that Elrond and Galadriel knew where
> the Istari came from (and on what business) but did they let the Lords
> of Gondor in on that, too?
>

It's clearly stated in several places that the Istari only told a very few
who they actually were and where they came from, and those few were Elrond,
Galadriel, and Cirdan (from whom it pretty much could NOT have been
concealed anyway... Denethor plainly has no idea who Gandalf is just from
his behavior. He rejects everything that Gandalf suggests and treats him as
some sort of meddling politician.

> On a slightly related note.. do you think that the King of Numenor had
> some means of communication with the Valar, if he wanted their councel
> concerning something? I've sometimes thought he could have written a
> letter and asked some of the Elves who visited Numenor to pass it on,
> but a more direct form of communication would IMO have been an
> appropriate "boon".
>

Yes, at least one. The palantiri have been brought up by others, but that
would have been a link to Eldamar if the rumored 'matching' stone was in a
tower of Tol Erresea, not directly to the Valar. The 'ceremonial' space on
top of Meneltarma on the other hand was clearly a space reserved for the
King/Queen to speak, so much so that anyone would sense it: "but it is said
that the silence was so great that even a stranger ignorant of Númenor and
all its history, if he were transported thither, would not have dared to
speak aloud." (UT) And this mountain is placed 'in front' of the greater
mountain of Valinor itself where Manwe and Varda sit. Numenor is far closer
to Valinor than any othe rmortal land. Clearly, the King/Queen speaking here
would be heard by the Elder King, not to mention Eru himself. It's a pity it
was not used when it was most needed. "And last of all the mounting wave,
green and cold and plumed with foam, climbing over the land, took to its
bosom Tar-Míriel the Queen, fairer than silver or ivory or pearls. Too late
she strove to ascend the steep ways of the Meneltarma to the holy place; for
the waters overtook her, and her cry was lost in the roaring of the wind."
(Silmarillion) If she had thought to go there earlier and appeal for help
someone (most likely Eonwe) could have been sent to take the troublesome
guest away before he had completely corrupted the land.
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On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 08:43:17 GMT,
Jussi Jaatinen <1 DeleteThis @1.au> wrote:
>
>
> This has probably been addressed here previously, but did the Steward of
> Gondor know Saruman was a maia emissary of the Valar when he allowed him
> to settle in Orthanc? We're told that Elrond and Galadriel knew where
> the Istari came from (and on what business) but did they let the Lords
> of Gondor in on that, too?

To be honest, I doubted very much that they had any idea. Gandalf tells
Denethor that he was a steward as well, so I'm presuming that the Dunedain
of Gondor, at least, probably had no idea who or what they were.

>
> On a slightly related note.. do you think that the King of Numenor had
> some means of communication with the Valar, if he wanted their councel
> concerning something?

Until the shadow came over Numenor, Elves used to come from Tol Eressea. As
the shadow fell, there were emissaries from the Valar who tried to reason
with the Numernoans.

> I've sometimes thought he could have written a
> letter and asked some of the Elves who visited Numenor to pass it on,
> but a more direct form of communication would IMO have been an
> appropriate "boon".

Perhaps the Palantir that looked into the West had this ability, but other
than that possibility, I do not think the kings of Numenor had a direct line
to the Valar.

--
Aaron Clausen

taocow DeleteThis @alberni.net
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Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<MPG.19ed460ce749a75998b509.DeleteThis@news.odyssey.net>...
> In article <vo64auqnfvt83.DeleteThis@corp.supernews.com> in
> rec.arts.books.tolkien, Chocoholic <Chocoholic.DeleteThis@Cocoa.org> wrote:
> >Denethor plainly has no idea who Gandalf is just from
> >his behavior. He rejects everything that Gandalf suggests and treats him as
> >some sort of meddling politician.
>
> Your logic escapes me.
> Even if Denethor knew _exactly_ who and what Gandalf was, it does
> not follow that he would necessarily have followed Gandalf's advice.
>
> After all, the King of Númenor received undoubted emissaries from
> the Valar, and still disregarded what they said.
>
>
I've thought about this recently, and I think that I now have a theory
for this- Denethor's pride and opinion of the might of his people.

I think that Denethor's attitude to Gandalf would be the same
regardless of whether or not he knew who Gandalf really was. While
Denethor probably doesn't have the same jealously of immortals that
brought about the fall of Numenor, he does have another reason to
dislike people like Gandalf.

Pride- Denethor is full of it. Not just of himself, but of his race.
He believes that the Dunedain are truly mighty, and he is the mighiest
of them all, born and destined to be their ruler. He feels that elves
and istari however, tend to look at the latter-day Numenoreans in a
rather condescending light. Something along the lines of: "Those poor,
stupid Numenoreans! We gave them so many powers and gifts, but they
squandered them and are now no better than the rest of mankind! They
need US to lead them!"

Denethor thinks that Gandalf and all the elven-wise have this attitude
towards the Dunedain, and him especially, whom they see as the
exemplar of the proud, shortsighted leaders that brought Numenor to
its knees. He feels they are thus trying to sideline him as ruler of
the West, and take over themselves - or appoint "puppet" rulers like
Aragorn, who will be at their command. As he thinks that the Dunedain
are rather mighty, and don't need any guidance, he would disagree
quite strongly with what he thinks is Gandalf's opinion of them.

The above is probably quite unrepresentative of the true attitudes of
the istari, most of the eldar and especially Gandalf. He doesn't see
them in any condesending way - he simply beleives that they need help
and guidance in their darkest hour. Denethor of course, because of his
attitude, doesn't see it this way, and thus treats Gandalf as if his
sole aim was to take over as effective ruler of the west. I doubt that
knowledge of who Gandalf was would change this. If anything, it would
make Denethor's dislike of Gandalf stronger, as he would feel that the
valar themselves were trying to control him. And he's a man who
doesn't like to be controlled.

Aravorn 82
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"Jussi Jaatinen" <1.RemoveThis@1.au> wrote in message
news:3F829DB1.AFF6E283@1.au...
>
> coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>
> > if the jealousy for immortality was in the stewards
> > i think they would not want a great deal of contact
>
> The Stewards could also have received this information directly from
> Saruman or Gandalf. If they declared themselves to the Elven leaders,
> they might also have done so the the Stewards.

I don't know that the Istari 'declared' their origins to anybody. They
seemed pretty secretive about their true nature. To proclaim themselves
as emissaries of the Valar could be interpreted as an exhibition of
power, or attempting to exert influence beyond the scope of their role
as counselors.

Doubtless, their true nature would be apparent to certain elves. Cirdan,
obviously, who welcomed their arrival, and any High Elf who would be
able to see it from a spiritual perspective (I include Elrond in this
group also). I think very few Men knew the Istari's true nature. Aragorn
and the Dunedain of the North, and perhaps Faramir.

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
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aravorn82.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com (Aravorn82) wrote in
news:ff50e416.0310072239.7eb57d8c@posting.google.com:
>
> Pride- Denethor is full of it. Not just of himself, but of his
> race. He believes that the Dunedain are truly mighty, and he is
> the mighiest of them all, born and destined to be their ruler. He
> feels that elves and istari however, tend to look at the
> latter-day Numenoreans in a rather condescending light. Something
> along the lines of: "Those poor, stupid Numenoreans! We gave them
> so many powers and gifts, but they squandered them and are now no
> better than the rest of mankind! They need US to lead them!"
>
> Denethor thinks that Gandalf and all the elven-wise have this
> attitude towards the Dunedain, and him especially, whom they see
> as the exemplar of the proud, shortsighted leaders that brought
> Numenor to its knees. He feels they are thus trying to sideline
> him as ruler of the West, and take over themselves - or appoint
> "puppet" rulers like Aragorn, who will be at their command. As he
> thinks that the Dunedain are rather mighty, and don't need any
> guidance, he would disagree quite strongly with what he thinks is
> Gandalf's opinion of them.

Denethor wanted his due. Gondor had stood, alone so he thought, in the
face of the threat of Mordor for thousands of years. Only Rohan came
to her aid in all this time. Why should someone step in now and claim
the glory? It's not as though he, nor Gondor, were covetous of
anything more than they already had.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Email to: jim dot laker one at btopenworld dot com
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"Yuk Tang" <jim.laker2.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns940E7DC3E6BDBjimlaker2yahoocom@130.133.1.4...


> I doubt if even Aragorn would have known; the stories told to him
> would have concentrated on the Valar and those of the Maiar who set
> foot in ME, and Gandalf wouldn't have seen fit to tell him owt else.
> The leaders of the Council (the Ringbearers) would have known the true
> nature of the Istari, and no-one else would be my guess.
>
> Let's face it, if it weren't for the aside in the Silm, what would
your
> response be if told that Gandalf was actually Olorin? Who?

Having been raised by Elrond, and having close friendship with Gandalf,
it would seem Aragorn would know of his true nature.
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

> No the Stewards did not envy the elves their immortality -- no men were so
> foolish as to do that except the Numenoreans, who were close enough to the

better reread the annals of thekings of gondor
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Stan Brown <the_stan_brown DeleteThis @fastmail.fm> wrote:
: In article <f3Ugb.24838$832.6779@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com> in
: rec.arts.books.tolkien, Bill O'Meally <OMeallyMD DeleteThis @wise.rr.com> wrote:
:>Having been raised by Elrond, and having close friendship with Gandalf,
:>it would seem Aragorn would know of his true nature.

: Frodo was effectively raised by Bilbo, and Gandalf was a friend of
: theirs; yet there is no evidence in LotR that Frodo knew what
: Gandalf was. There is no evidence in LotR that Frodo or any other
: mortal knew what a Maia was. Did Aragorn? I doubt it. Certainly he
: had heard of the Valar, as part of the tales that came down to him
: from Númenor. But the Maiar as such had not really had dealings with
: the Edain in the First Age (except during the War of Wrath), or with
: the Númenóreans in the Second Age, or with the Dúnedain in the
: Third.

The only time in the books that I recall anyone pondering
Gandalf's nature is Pippin after his encounter with Denethor
and Gandalf. Pippin clearly does not have a clue about
Gandalf, which is not saying much.

On the other hand, Frodo's comments about Saruman
"He was great once, of a noble kind that we should not
dar to raise our hands against."
implies that Frodo is aware of Saruman's true nature.

Stephen
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Yuk Tang <jim.laker2.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> writes:

> "Bill O'Meally" <OMeallyMD.DeleteThis@wise.rr.com> wrote in
> news:HSMgb.23947$832.12764@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com:
> >
> > I think very few Men knew the
> > Istari's true nature. Aragorn and the Dunedain of the North, and
> > perhaps Faramir.
>
> I doubt if even Aragorn would have known;

[snip]

> Let's face it, if it weren't for the aside in the Silm, what would your
> response be if told that Gandalf was actually Olorin? Who?

But do you really think that Aragorn had not read Bilbo's
translations from Elvish? That is precisely where that aside
appears, is it not?

"Bilbo's friend" was "the Dunadan", remember?


And anyway, since Gandalf told Faramir who he was "in [his] youth in
the West that is forgotten". While the reader may not think much of
this, Faramir ought to know very well what it means. Faramir knew who
sent Gandalf, and whence he came.

Aragorn knew who Gandalf was. And if Faramir just thought long
enough about it, it would come to him as well. He was a descendent
of Melian, after all.


-SK-
--
perl -e 'print "Just another Perl ${\(trickster and hacker)},";'

The Sidhekin *proves* Sidhe did it!
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stephen.TakeThisOut@nomail.com wrote in news:bm1bpl$2ead$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu:
>
> On the other hand, Frodo's comments about Saruman
> "He was great once, of a noble kind that we should not
> dar to raise our hands against."
> implies that Frodo is aware of Saruman's true nature.

Even the Edain, in the days when they were in close contact with the
Noldor in their prime, were told little of substance about the Valar
(cf. Narn). Why would Frodo have such detailed knowledge?

It's likely that Frodo noticed that Gandalf was accorded respect by the
Elves, even the likes of Elrond and Galadriel. It only occurred to
Pippin during G's confrontation with Denethor, but Frodo, probably the
most perceptive Hobbit who'd ever lived, would have seen it much
earlier. What Gandalf really was would have been beyond his ken, but
Frodo would have seen him as at least on a par with the highest of the
High Elves.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Email to: jim dot laker one at btopenworld dot com
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"coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
<mair_fheal.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-0710030241390001@c114.ppp.tsoft.com...
>
> men had little to do with the valar
> tuor and valandil are the only i can think of
> that had or attempte to have direct contact
>
> men were more directly connected to the eru

They prayed to the valar: "May the valar turn him aside!" (i.e. the
mumak).
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"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.19ee380a3827646298b51c@news.odyssey.net...
> (There are such indications in the Appendices. Who wrote them? I've
> always thought that Bilbo and/or Frodo translated them while in
> retirement. IIRC, Frodo did not have access to Bilbo's /Translations
> from the Elvish/ until after the War of the Ring.)

"Note on the Shire Records" states that the matter of what became Appendices
A, B, and C derived from the "Red Book" volume 5 (written in Westmarch)
edited in Gondor by Findegil, King's Writer, and then condensed by Tolkien.

Appendices D, E, and F were written by Tolkien himself.
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