Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West?

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.RemoveThis@fastmail.fm> writes:

> Frodo was effectively raised by Bilbo, and Gandalf was a friend of
> theirs; yet there is no evidence in LotR that Frodo knew what
> Gandalf was. There is no evidence in LotR that Frodo or any other
> mortal knew what a Maia was. Did Aragorn? I doubt it. Certainly he
> had heard of the Valar, as part of the tales that came down to him
> from Númenor. But the Maiar as such had not really had dealings with
> the Edain in the First Age (except during the War of Wrath), or with
> the Númenóreans in the Second Age, or with the Dúnedain in the
> Third.

What about Melian? The tale of Lúthien and Beren was rather
well-known, and I would expect the origin of Lúthien's mother to be a
known fact to someone like Aragorn. After all, she is a distant
ancestor of himself, and a rather close ancestor of his wife. Elrond
almost certainly knew that she was a Maia, and I don't see any reason
why he would want to keep it secret for Aragorn.

It is also not entirely impossible that the Edain and the Númenóreans
knew that Sauron was a Maia, IMHO.

--
Tord Romstad
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

Tord Kallqvist Romstad <romstad.DeleteThis@math.uio.no> wrote in
news:gqk4qyi8tpx.fsf@aload.uio.no:
>
> What about Melian? The tale of Lúthien and Beren was rather
> well-known, and I would expect the origin of Lúthien's mother to
> be a known fact to someone like Aragorn. After all, she is a
> distant ancestor of himself, and a rather close ancestor of his
> wife. Elrond almost certainly knew that she was a Maia, and I
> don't see any reason why he would want to keep it secret for
> Aragorn.

Why would he want to tell Aragorn about the various orders of the
Ainur? It's not as though he himself has personally met them. Apart
from the Istari, and they were reticent about the subject.

Did the Numenoreans actually know that much about the Maiar? That they
existed on a different level from the Valar, that they were of the same
order but lesser? The most detail that we have on the matter lies in
Hurin's dialogue with Morgoth, and he concentrated on the Eldar King,
the faces that have seen the Light (the Noldor), and the nature of Men.
But as Morgoth mocked, and Hurin failed to refute, he didn't actually
know that much about the West that did not concern Men and Noldor.

And remember, this was one of the Edain who'd been closest to those
who'd been in regular contact with the Ainur. One who had been treated
as a foster child by Turgon, and who was in the confidence of Fingon.

This gap between what they'd been told by the Noldor, and their
understanding of the world, probably also led to the fertile ground
that Sauron exploited when he established the worship of Melkor in
Numenor.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Email to: jim dot laker one at btopenworld dot com
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

"A Tsar Is Born" <AtsarisbornNoSpam.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> writes:

> "The Sidhekin"
> <Sidhekin.RemoveThis@remove-spam-and-and-and-remove.allverden.nospam.invalid> wrote in
> message news:7x65izzp4x.fsf@laptop.dav...
> > Aragorn knew who Gandalf was. And if Faramir just thought long
> > enough about it, it would come to him as well. He was a descendent
> > of Melian, after all.
>
> Where does it say that Faramir was anything of the sort?
> (The Dol Amroths had Elvish blood but not HIGH Elvish blood. The House of
> Mardil were of High Numenorean ancestry but NOT of royal blood.)

I think it is very likely that Faramir was a descendent of Melian,
even if it is not explicitly stated anywhere. Apparently, people of
high ancestry often married each other in Numenor and Gondor (like in
most other cultures of the past), and it would be very surprising if
there never were any intermarriages between the royal family and the
house of stewards some time during the long history of the Dunedain.

My guess is that most of the Numenorean aristocracy at the end of the
Second Age were descendents of Melian.

--
Tord Romstad
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

"Tord Kallqvist Romstad" <romstad.TakeThisOut@math.uio.no> wrote in message
news:gqkznga7ejl.fsf@aload.uio.no...
> "A Tsar Is Born" <AtsarisbornNoSpam.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> > "The Sidhekin"
> > <Sidhekin.TakeThisOut@remove-spam-and-and-and-remove.allverden.nospam.invalid> wrote
in
> > message news:7x65izzp4x.fsf@laptop.dav...
> > > Aragorn knew who Gandalf was. And if Faramir just thought long
> > > enough about it, it would come to him as well. He was a descendent
> > > of Melian, after all.
> >
> > Where does it say that Faramir was anything of the sort?
> > (The Dol Amroths had Elvish blood but not HIGH Elvish blood. The House
of
> > Mardil were of High Numenorean ancestry but NOT of royal blood.)
>
> I think it is very likely that Faramir was a descendent of Melian,
> even if it is not explicitly stated anywhere. Apparently, people of
> high ancestry often married each other in Numenor and Gondor (like in
> most other cultures of the past), and it would be very surprising if
> there never were any intermarriages between the royal family and the
> house of stewards some time during the long history of the Dunedain.
>
> My guess is that most of the Numenorean aristocracy at the end of the
> Second Age were descendents of Melian.

Yes it would be surprising except that Tolkien is so set on having Aragorn
the last of his line and so forth that he never thinks about things like
"who did they all marry?" and "what happened to younger sons and daughters?"
which is what anyone who had studied real dynasties would think. (JRRT
wasn't interested in real dynasties.)

These are not real people. These are characters in a story. Aragorn is
fearless because he is descended from Luthien. Faramir is a nice guy because
he reads a lot and has some Elvish blood -- but he is NOT a descendant of
Melian, or JRRT would have said so. He always does.

If anyone IS a descendant of the royal house, or of one of its cadets, he is
very careful to say so. Gilraen was. Castamir was. Earnur was, and we even
know how.

So if he is careful to say that the House of the Stewards were Numenorean
but not royal, that's what he means: your authority on Faramir's descent
from Melian is your own head and nothing at all higher, and we can't accept
that here.

Jean Coeur de Lapin
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 16:29:20 GMT, AC <taocow DeleteThis @alberni.net> wrote:

>On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 08:43:17 GMT,
>Jussi Jaatinen <1 DeleteThis @1.au> wrote:
>>
>>
>> This has probably been addressed here previously, but did the Steward of
>> Gondor know Saruman was a maia emissary of the Valar when he allowed him
>> to settle in Orthanc? We're told that Elrond and Galadriel knew where
>> the Istari came from (and on what business) but did they let the Lords
>> of Gondor in on that, too?
>
>To be honest, I doubted very much that they had any idea. Gandalf tells
>Denethor that he was a steward as well, so I'm presuming that the Dunedain
>of Gondor, at least, probably had no idea who or what they were.

IDHTBIFOM, but IIRC he says something to the effect of "I am a Steward
too, if you have not forgotten", indicating (to me) that Denethor did
indeed know his origin.

Jim Deutch
--
I think it must be God's punishment for me not believing in him.
- Nick Connolly
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:00:46 -0400, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown DeleteThis @fastmail.fm> wrote:

>When Gandalf said "In my youth in the West I was Olorin",(*) I
>thought that just was a name, like Incanus. Even the Appendices to
>LotR didn't really tell me otherwise. (Aragorn had other names in
>his youth too.)
[snipp]
>(*) quited from memory because IDHTBIFOM.

"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten" (*)

The "forgotten" bit is a clue, to those with eyes to see (wouldn't
include Pippin, though, frex).

Jim Deutch
--
"Face: The Spinal Frontier"
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

> I don't have my books in front of me, but I distinctly Gandalf telling
> Denethor "I am also a Steward. Did you not know?" Which would indicate, at
> best, that Denethor might have had some idea of what Gandalf was.

or informing denethor of his role not his nature
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

Jim Deutch <103134.3516.RemoveThis@compuserve.com> wrote:
: On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 16:29:20 GMT, AC <taocow.RemoveThis@alberni.net> wrote:

:>On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 08:43:17 GMT,
:>Jussi Jaatinen <1.RemoveThis@1.au> wrote:
:>>
:>>
:>> This has probably been addressed here previously, but did the Steward of
:>> Gondor know Saruman was a maia emissary of the Valar when he allowed him
:>> to settle in Orthanc? We're told that Elrond and Galadriel knew where
:>> the Istari came from (and on what business) but did they let the Lords
:>> of Gondor in on that, too?
:>
:>To be honest, I doubted very much that they had any idea. Gandalf tells
:>Denethor that he was a steward as well, so I'm presuming that the Dunedain
:>of Gondor, at least, probably had no idea who or what they were.

: IDHTBIFOM, but IIRC he says something to the effect of "I am a Steward
: too, if you have not forgotten", indicating (to me) that Denethor did
: indeed know his origin.

: Jim Deutch

He says
"For I also am a Steward. Did you not know?"
I am not sure what that indicates to me. It sounds like
Gandalf expects Denethor to know that Gandalf is a steward, but
is suprised to realize that Denethor does not know that Gandalf
is a steward.

Stephen
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:44:30 -0400,
Chocoholic <Chocoholic.DeleteThis@Cocoa.org> wrote:
>
> Frodo doesn't have to know Saruman personally to know about him. He's been
> having more conversations with Gandalf than are reported in the text of the
> book, surely?

That would be my assumption. There was obviously some time between
Aragorn's coronation and their departure northward. As I recall, that's
when Gandalf tells Gimli and the hobbits about the meeting with Thorin at
Bree which eventually lead to Bilbo's adventures to Erebor.

Still, I also suspect that Frodo, changed as he was by the morgul wound and
his long resistance to the Ring, may have had a keener sight than his
companions. I have a pretty good feeling that he recognized Saruman's
stature, and possibly even something of his nature.

--
Aaron Clausen

taocow.DeleteThis@alberni.net
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

stephen DeleteThis @nomail.com wrote:
> Jim Deutch <103134.3516 DeleteThis @compuserve.com> wrote:
> : On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 16:29:20 GMT, AC <taocow DeleteThis @alberni.net> wrote:
> :>On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 08:43:17 GMT,
> :>Jussi Jaatinen <1 DeleteThis @1.au> wrote:
> :>> ... We're told that Elrond and Galadriel knew where the Istari came
> :>> from (and on what business) but did they let the Lords
> :>> of Gondor in on that, too?
> :>
> :>To be honest, I doubted very much that they had any idea. Gandalf tells
> :>Denethor that he was a steward as well, so I'm presuming that the Dunedain
> :>of Gondor, at least, probably had no idea who or what they were.
>
> : IDHTBIFOM, but IIRC he says something to the effect of "I am a Steward
> : too, if you have not forgotten", indicating (to me) that Denethor did
> : indeed know his origin.
>
> He says
> "For I also am a Steward. Did you not know?"
> I am not sure what that indicates to me. It sounds like
> Gandalf expects Denethor to know that Gandalf is a steward, but
> is suprised to realize that Denethor does not know that Gandalf
> is a steward.
What #exactly# does Gandalf mean? For whom is G. a steward? For the Elder
King? Eru? And it is "Steward" with a Capital "S", which complicates the
matter so much that I feel an urgent need to have Steuard's advice.

Archie

--
"Education is like a communicable sexual disease:
it disqualifies you from certain jobs,
and you have the urge to pass it on."

Terry Pratchett
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

"A Tsar Is Born" <AtsarisbornNoSpam.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> writes:

> "Tord Kallqvist Romstad" <romstad.DeleteThis@math.uio.no> wrote in message
> news:gqkznga7ejl.fsf@aload.uio.no...
> > "A Tsar Is Born" <AtsarisbornNoSpam.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> writes:
> >
> > > "The Sidhekin" wrote
> > > > Aragorn knew who Gandalf was. And if Faramir just thought long
> > > > enough about it, it would come to him as well. He was a descendent
> > > > of Melian, after all.
> > >
> > > Where does it say that Faramir was anything of the sort?
> > > (The Dol Amroths had Elvish blood but not HIGH Elvish blood. The House
> of
> > > Mardil were of High Numenorean ancestry but NOT of royal blood.)

What distinction do you think Tolkien had in mind between "high" and
"low" Númenorean race? This was the very expression that first gave
me the impression that the Stewards were descended from Melian.

Of course, I may be misinterpreting Tolkien here. The Númenorean
race is in itself "high", so it may be, perhaps, that he just meant
"High (i.e. Númenorean) race". Or he may have tired of writing
"pure", as he did elsewhere, when contrasting with those of mixed
blood lines. But I find it unlikely.


> > I think it is very likely that Faramir was a descendent of Melian,

[snip]

> > My guess is that most of the Numenorean aristocracy at the end of the
> > Second Age were descendents of Melian.
>
> Yes it would be surprising except that Tolkien is so set on having Aragorn
> the last of his line and so forth that he never thinks about things like
> "who did they all marry?" and "what happened to younger sons and daughters?"
> which is what anyone who had studied real dynasties would think. (JRRT
> wasn't interested in real dynasties.)

Last of his line does not imply last descendant of Melian. It does
not even imply last descendant of Isildur. The line in question was
from father to son, unbroken throughout all those generations.

> These are not real people. These are characters in a story.

I think you underestimate Tolkien. He tried very hard to make them
real. And as _UT_ lists several cases of both younger and elder
siblings of the various kings and ruling queens of Númenor, and even
goes on to tell some of "what happened to" them, it seems to me he had
a good handle on this particular problem.

> Aragorn is
> fearless because he is descended from Luthien. Faramir is a nice guy because
> he reads a lot and has some Elvish blood -- but he is NOT a descendant of
> Melian, or JRRT would have said so. He always does.

Per definition, right?

Of course, the way I read "a man of high Númenorean race", Tolkien
says just that.

> If anyone IS a descendant of the royal house, or of one of its cadets, he is
> very careful to say so. Gilraen was. Castamir was. Earnur was, and we even
> know how.

Not "anyone". Aside from Gilraen, just claimants to the throne.
Hardly worth such a sweeping generalization.

> So if he is careful to say that the House of the Stewards were Numenorean
> but not royal, that's what he means:

Well, what does "not royal" mean?

1) the royalty of Gondor belonged solely to the heirs of Meneldil

2) in Gondor, such lineage was reckoned through the sons only

All it means is that the stewards were not descended from Meneldil
in an all-male line. As they were "not of the line of Elendil", by
Faramir's own statement, that follows. But it does not follow that
they were not descended from Meneldil at all. And even if they were
not, there were quite a few generations between Elros and Meneldil.

In fact, even if my interpretation of "high Númenorean race" is
wrong, and by some weird chance, Mardil was not descended from Elros,
do you think the descendants of the kings (the existence of which is
confirmed in Appendix A) would not within a few generations marry into
the family?

It is so unlikely as to border on the impossible.

> your authority on Faramir's descent
> from Melian is your own head and nothing at all higher, and we can't accept
> that here.

Tord does not claim any authority, he just thinks it very likely,
would be very surprising if not, and finally states his guess. I
really think you should think higher of his head; it seems to be a
good one.

Or was your intention to declare _my_ head unacceptable? Oh well.
I shall be glad to keep it. Still, it would perhaps be more fitting
of you to declare my _interpretation_ unacceptable. More fitting, at
least, to anyone with a nostalgic flare. Flair. Whatever.


-SK-
--
perl -e 'print "Just another Perl ${\(trickster and hacker)},";'

The Sidhekin *proves* Sidhe did it!
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

mair_fheal RemoveThis @yahoo.com (coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des
anges) wrote in news:mair_fheal-0910031620340001@c119.ppp.tsoft.com:
>
> alot of other maiar came with the vanyar and teleri
> when they joined the edain noldor and sindar
> to finally trounce morgoth

Were they explicitly Maiar? IIRC Maiar aren't specifically referred to
in the histories, and the Edain (and Dunedain) only ever speak of the
'Valar'. If the Maiar, during the War of Wrath, took the form of Elves
(likely), would the Edain have been able to distinguish them from the
Vanyar? If not, would anyone have bothered to tell them the
difference?

The problem is that the Ainur, when clad, usually took the form of the
Children. And if they took the form of Quendi (as I guess they would
have done), their immortality and superhuman power wouldn't seem quite
so out of place. Even if Men saw them, they wouldn't necessarily be
able to tell the difference without instruction; cue the comment about
mortals and sheep.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Email to: jim dot laker one at btopenworld dot com
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

"Jussi Jaatinen" <1.TakeThisOut@1.au> wrote in message
news:3F85206C.5CB9AFCA@1.au...

> According to Akallabeth, Eonwe came to Numenor in the beginning of the
> Second Age and taught the Numenoreans "true knowledge", which IMO
> probably included the Ainulindale and other knowledge of the Valar and
> Maiar. The Numenoreans also benefited from the visits of the High
Elves,
> who certainly knew of the Maiar and may have even told the Edain of
> Olorin.
>
> Also Sauron was on Numenor during the Second Age, and whereas he
> probably didn't impart "true knowledge", at least the Numenoreans knew
> he was a Maia. I think it was Tolkien's position also that all of the
> Sil was in fact a "Mannish tradition" that was passed on to us -
> probably through Numenor and Gondor.

Let's not forget Osse, who raised up the Island of Numenor from the sea.
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
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