Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West?

>I think it was Tolkien's position also that all of the
>> Sil was in fact a "Mannish tradition" that was passed on to us -
>> probably through Numenor and Gondor.

He hadn't really settled on anything yet. But at the time these texts were
written they were considered elvish texts. Later Tolkien had the idea of
making them Numenorean traditions but he never went back a reworked anything.

Russ


"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor"
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

"Trade Surplus" <tradesurplus.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:56zhb.15524$yn2.5030@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com:
>
> There are two possible explanations for Aragorn being the "last of
> the royal house" or "the last of Isildur's line".
> 1) Non-royal descendants of the royal house became so far
> separated from the royal house (by number of generations or
> intervening women) that they were no longer considered eligible
> for the throne and thus not accepted as being of the royal house
> or of the king's line. 2) The royal house was so badly cursed that
> to marry a royal daughter or second son meant annihilation for
> your descendants, without exception.

3) Like Arvedui 'Last King', Aragorn's life came at a decisive point.
If he were to triumph over Sauron, his line would be assured. If he
were to fail, the 'Kings of the West' would surely be extinct.

I'm sure it's been answered before, but what does Ar-Agorn mean? Also,
why did the Arnorians start using the Numenorean, rather than High
Elven title?


--
Cheers, ymt.
Email to: jim dot laker one at btopenworld dot com
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:44:30 -0400, "Chocoholic" <Chocoholic.TakeThisOut@Cocoa.org>
wrote:
>It's not surprising that Saruman knows a lot about Frodo. He's been obsessed
>with recovering the Ring, so he's been watching Frodo 'from afar' by every
>means he could come up with. Maybe even with the palantir. How would he know
>to mock Galadriel's lament if he hadn't witnessed it, or at least got a
>report of it from some agent, watching the fellowship leave Lorien?

For a moment, I took that as an excellent argument. But I think it's
actually rather weak. Saruman is merely mocking the classic and
perpetual Elven lament: it's almost generic. Is there any specific
element of his mocking that ties it directly to Galadriel's song in
Farewell to Lorien? IDHTBIFOM, but I suspect there is not.

Jim Deutch
--
Bah! Conspiracy theories! There's a cabal of little-known Swiss
businessmen that thinks those up, you know. - Tony Walton
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

"Jim Deutch" <103134.3516 DeleteThis @compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:3f871ae1.376432641@news.compuserve.com...
> On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:44:30 -0400, "Chocoholic" <Chocoholic DeleteThis @Cocoa.org>
> wrote:
> >It's not surprising that Saruman knows a lot about Frodo. He's been
obsessed
> >with recovering the Ring, so he's been watching Frodo 'from afar' by
every
> >means he could come up with. Maybe even with the palantir. How would he
know
> >to mock Galadriel's lament if he hadn't witnessed it, or at least got a
> >report of it from some agent, watching the fellowship leave Lorien?
>
> For a moment, I took that as an excellent argument. But I think it's
> actually rather weak. Saruman is merely mocking the classic and
> perpetual Elven lament: it's almost generic. Is there any specific
> element of his mocking that ties it directly to Galadriel's song in
> Farewell to Lorien? IDHTBIFOM, but I suspect there is not.
>
> Jim Deutch

yes, he uses her exact words: "And now, what ship will bear you back across
so wide a sea?' he mocked. 'It will be a grey ship, and full of ghosts.' He
laughed, but his voice was cracked and hideous."
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 22:03:03 +0300,
<put-the-no-mail-out-archimedes99 RemoveThis @mail.ru> wrote:

>stephen@nomail.com wrote:
>> He says
>> "For I also am a Steward. Did you not know?"
>> I am not sure what that indicates to me. It sounds like
>> Gandalf expects Denethor to know that Gandalf is a steward, but
>> is suprised to realize that Denethor does not know that Gandalf
>> is a steward.
>What #exactly# does Gandalf mean? For whom is G. a steward? For the Elder
>King? Eru? And it is "Steward" with a Capital "S", which complicates the
>matter so much that I feel an urgent need to have Steuard's advice.

I've always taken it to mean (even though I'd forgotten the actual
phrase Gandalf used) that he was a Steward of Middle Earth. Not "for
whom", but "of what". All things of goodness and beauty are his
charge. After all, the Steward of Gondor himself rules in his own
right: for hundreds of years the conceit that he rules in the name of
the absent King has been maintained only out of stubbornness. Nobody
expected a rightful King to actually pop his head in.

The very example of the Stewards of Gondor shows that you don't
necessarily have to be a Steward _for_ anyone in particular, so
whether it's Manwe, or Eru, or whatever is not material.

Jim Deutch
--
"We will keep fighting until the violence stops!"
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

103134.3516.RemoveThis@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) wrote in
news:3f8719f0.376191064@news.compuserve.com:
>
> The very example of the Stewards of Gondor shows that you don't
> necessarily have to be a Steward _for_ anyone in particular, so
> whether it's Manwe, or Eru, or whatever is not material.

But how did Denethor interpret Gandalf's statement? If, as is possible
(IMO likely), he did not know of Gandalf's Maianess, then what could
the statement mean?

Denethor already knew that a claimant of the throne existed, and had
visited Gondor in the past. Denethor also knew that Gandalf was behind
Thorongil's activities.

Given what we know of Denethor, it's likely that he saw Gandalf as
Aragorn's puppetmaster. Gandalf's remark was highly unfortunate, and
probably contributed to Denethor's resentment of him.

In this light, we can also better understand his interest in Pippin.
Here was a chance to bring the wizard's protege under his command, to
show Gandalf that the Steward of Gondor was still in control.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Email to: jim dot laker one at btopenworld dot com
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

"Yuk Tang" <jim.laker2.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9410E4FB89B21jimlaker2yahoocom@130.133.1.4...
> 103134.3516.RemoveThis@compuserve.com (Jim Deutch) wrote in
> news:3f8719f0.376191064@news.compuserve.com:
> >
> > The very example of the Stewards of Gondor shows that you don't
> > necessarily have to be a Steward _for_ anyone in particular, so
> > whether it's Manwe, or Eru, or whatever is not material.
>
> But how did Denethor interpret Gandalf's statement? If, as is possible
> (IMO likely), he did not know of Gandalf's Maianess, then what could
> the statement mean?
>
> Denethor already knew that a claimant of the throne existed, and had
> visited Gondor in the past. Denethor also knew that Gandalf was behind
> Thorongil's activities.
>
> Given what we know of Denethor, it's likely that he saw Gandalf as
> Aragorn's puppetmaster. Gandalf's remark was highly unfortunate, and
> probably contributed to Denethor's resentment of him.
>
> In this light, we can also better understand his interest in Pippin.
> Here was a chance to bring the wizard's protege under his command, to
> show Gandalf that the Steward of Gondor was still in control.
>

The fact that Gandalf's 'follower' had volunteered his allegiance to
Denethor was no doubt a nice 'bonus' but I think the real issue that
Denethor was reacting to was the symbolic repayment of the 'debt' for
Boromir having saved Pippin's life and losing his own in the process.
Denethor is a very... 'legalistic'? person. I can't think of a better word
at the moment. He's very conscious of the Medieval style 'economy' of rights
and obligations, the oath of service that he gives to Pippin, the
obligations that the Rohirrim owe him as allies, and such. Pippin sort of
'accidently' hit upon something that appealed to Denethor's sense of honor
in offering his allegiance. It seems rather odd to me that Gandalf doesn't
seem to understand why this pleases Denethor. He is always speaking in terms
of the high tradition he serves and all the rights and obligations he is
juggling.
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

"Chocoholic" <Chocoholic.DeleteThis@Cocoa.org> wrote in
news:voefh5474kkt6f@corp.supernews.com:
> "Yuk Tang" <jim.laker2.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9410E4FB89B21jimlaker2yahoocom@130.133.1.4...
>>
>> In this light, we can also better understand his interest in
>> Pippin. Here was a chance to bring the wizard's protege under his
>> command, to show Gandalf that the Steward of Gondor was still in
>> control.
>
> The fact that Gandalf's 'follower' had volunteered his allegiance
> to Denethor was no doubt a nice 'bonus' but I think the real issue
> that Denethor was reacting to was the symbolic repayment of the
> 'debt' for Boromir having saved Pippin's life and losing his own
> in the process.
>
> Denethor is a very... 'legalistic'? person. I
> can't think of a better word at the moment. He's very conscious of
> the Medieval style 'economy' of rights and obligations, the oath
> of service that he gives to Pippin, the obligations that the
> Rohirrim owe him as allies, and such. Pippin sort of 'accidently'
> hit upon something that appealed to Denethor's sense of honor in
> offering his allegiance. It seems rather odd to me that Gandalf
> doesn't seem to understand why this pleases Denethor. He is always
> speaking in terms of the high tradition he serves and all the
> rights and obligations he is juggling.

Denethor accepted Pippin's service for a number of reasons.

1. So he could speak to someone who'd witnessed Boromir's death.
2. Pippin owed Denethor the debt, explained above.
3. It gave him power over one of Gandalf's followers.

There wasn't a single reason for the episode. But the above combined
helps explain Denethor's surprise at the offer, his dignified
acceptance of the offer, and Gandalf's warning to Pippin. Not to
mention Denethor's discarding of him and sending him back to Gandalf,
when such power games no longer held any point.


--
Cheers, ymt.
Email to: jim dot laker one at btopenworld dot com
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

"Chocoholic" <Chocoholic DeleteThis @Cocoa.org> wrote in message
news:voefkmjb32f1d9@corp.supernews.com...
>
> yes, he uses her exact words: "And now, what ship will bear you back
across
> so wide a sea?' he mocked. 'It will be a grey ship, and full of ghosts.'
He
> laughed, but his voice was cracked and hideous."
>

The question then becomes: is Galadriel's song an improvisation of the
moment, or a part of her repetoire, so to speak, with which Saruman might
have been familiar? IIRC, the song is a meditation on her own condition of
exile, not tied to the specific moment of delivery, and so could have been
composed and spoken in the time before the hobbits actually hear it.

Galadriel does seem to suggest she has the power to close off Sauron's Eye.
Then so much more so mere Saruman's...Nor is there ever any idea that the
users of the Palantirs were able to listen in on private moments or secret
meetings. After all, there are any number of moments when Sauron might have
heard reference to Frodo's mission and ended the novel forthwith.

David Joslin
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<stephen.DeleteThis@nomail.com> wrote in message
news:bm4i0i$316j$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu...

> :> Personally, that final exchange between Saruman and Frodo
> :> always seemed out of place to me. The appear to be far more
> :> familiar with each other than they should be. They have
> :> never met before, other than the brief encounter when the
> :> returning fellowship passed Saruman on the road.
> :>

Perhaps the immediate conversation itself is enough to give Saruman insight
into Frodo's character, don't you think? What more does Saruman need to know
about Frodo to say the words he does, beyond Frodo's act of mercy itself?

This is a very great moment in the book, perhaps the culmination: his
earliest wish for Gollum to have been slain, Gandalf's reproof, and his
later sparing of Gollum out of pity come to this last moment in which he
proves in himself the lesson of mercy. Mercy above pity, since here he is
moved rather by hope for Saruman's restoration. So the divine intervention
of Gandalf bears its fruit: the mere hobbit rises to the wisdom of the
angel, and God's plan and love for the mortals is vindicated. All this in
the very face of the angel who has cast himself down! No wonder Saruman is
so bitter! And no wonder he and Frodo are so familiar, as you put it: they
share the same perspective, if from opposite endpoints.

The conversation is not out of place. To the contrary.

David Joslin
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

> I'm sure it's been answered before, but what does Ar-Agorn mean? Also,
> why did the Arnorians start using the Numenorean, rather than High
> Elven title?

'Aragorn' isn't Numernorean- it's Sindarin. This is stated in the
appendix of LOTR. Elessar, on the other hand, is Quenya. The prefix
Ar(a)- exists in both Quenya and Sindarin, meaning kingly/noble (from
the index of the Silmarillion). As the precusor tounge of Adunaic
(Numenorean), namely the language of the house of Hador, was paritally
derived from the elven tounges (as stated in the Silmarillion), is is
likely that this prefix made it into Adunaic as well.

According to the appendix or LOTR, the Kings of Arnor stopped using
Quenya names when the Arnor was spilt into the three smaller kingdoms
at the death of King Earendur in TA 868. Why they did this is not
stated anywhere. Maybe they didn't feel 'noble' enough to keep using
Quenya names now that their kingdom was split?

When King Argeleb of Arthedain came to the throne in TA 1350, there
were no more heirs of Isildur in the other two Kingdoms. Argeleb
claimed their kingship (albeit this claim was rejected by one of the
two). From then on, all the heirs of Isildur regnonise themselves as
Kings of all Arnor once again, and continued to use the prefix Ar(a)
in their names. I don't know if this was to honour Argeleb, or because
the prefix means kingly, or because it simply sounds like Arnor. This
continued even after the destruction of Arnor in TA 1974, right down
to Aragorn a thousand years later.

As for the meaning of Aragorn, one of the History of Middle Earth
volumes (I don't know which one) states that it means "kingly valour".

Aravorn82
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greg byshenk <gbyshenk.RemoveThis@byshenk.net> wrote:
: stephen.RemoveThis@nomail.com <stephen.RemoveThis@nomail.com> wrote:
:> I do not see any real evidence that Saruman knew anything about
:> Frodo personally. All he knew is that a hobbit was carrying
:> the Ring. He clearly had no idea that the hobbits his troops
:> captured did not have the Ring. If he knew so much about Frodo
:> personally, and could watch him from afar, he probably would have
:> noticed that Frodo was never captured by his troops.

: Not sure about "watching ... 'from afar'", but it seems very likely
: that Saruman would have heard a fair bit about Frodo (et al) by the
: time he (Saruman) reached the Shire. IIRC, Treebeard reported that
: he had spent considerable time talking to Saruman, and filling him
: in on what was going on outside Orthanc. That Frodo would not be
: a part of these conversations strains credibility beyond the breaking
: point.

Treebeard had never met Frodo, so how could Treebeard tell Saruman
anything personal about Frodo? Treebeard had no special information
about Frodo, and was surely wise enough not to tell Saruman
about the plan to destroy the ring.

:
:> : Frodo doesn't have to know Saruman personally to know about him. He's been
:> : having more conversations with Gandalf than are reported in the text of the
:> : book, surely?
:
:> We can come to any sort of conclusion if we start including stuff
:> that is not in the text.

: There is some truth to this statement, but it is evident that Frodo
: must have had a great many conversations with others in order to
: write what he did after his return.

Apparently he had a conversation or two with Sauron, as he
was able to write what Sauron was thinking just before
the ring was destroyed. Using the idea that Frodo supposedly
wrote LotR to determine what Frodo really knew just does not
work. There are many things in the narrative that Frodo
had no possible way of finding out. You can always use Gandalf
as a cop out, and claim that he told Frodo what Sauron was
thinking, and what the fox was thinking, and what Shagrat
was thinking when he saw Sam with the Ring, and what Shelob
was thinking when she saw the Phial, etc.

Stephen
 >> Stay informed about: Did the Stewards know the Istari came from the West? 

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 20:08:57 +0100, "johnj" <johnj.DeleteThis@classicfm.net>
wrote:

>> I think that Tolkien was in fact aware of what happened to the descendants
>> of daughters and second sons of royals, i.e. that after five or six
>> generations they were no longer considered royal, even though they were
>> descendants of royalty.
>>
>They aren't in real life England, either. Hence Peter and Zara Phillips,
>the Queen's grandchildren, are commoners.

They are commoners in that they have no peerage or title such as
Royal Highness.
However, were HMQ, Charles, William, Harry, Andrew, Beatrice, Eugenie,
Edward, Sophie's bump and Anne all to expire tomorrow, Peter Phillips
would be King. If he keeled over from the stress of it all, Zara
would be Queen.


--
Alison
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