[Storm from the Shadows] Eridani??

In article ,
Loren Pechtel wrote:

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> They seem to be engaging in a c-frac strike against orbital
> infrastructure. Isn't that just asking for an Eridani violation? What
> will the Sollies do if a round hits the planet?

It's not really a c-frac strike. It's a bunch of stealthed missile pods
coming in on a ballistic trajectory, at only .2c. Once they get in
range of their targets, and have a good firing solution, they'll launch
their missiles.

They might even have some fail-safes in the plan. There could be a
"freighter" in the Manticore system off-loading some cargo, that can
transmit a final go/no-go message to the incoming pods, in case things
have changed in the five months since the Sharks left Mesa, and they've
changed their minds about making the strike.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
 >> Stay informed about: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? 

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:47:07 -0600, J'hn1 wrote:

>On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:32:00 -0800, Loren Pechtel
> wrote:
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>You have to prove who did it first.
>Which would have, as a precondition, that you would have to have some
>idea of who did it.
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>spoiler space
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>Since Mesa never declared war, and has never been seen to posess
>assets that could do this, they would likely not be approved for
>Eridani violation reprisals by the Solly entities.

Disagree. I think Manticore will able to figure out a lot. In the
aftermath of the attack they'll get the attack vector and
velocity--what happens when they send out a bunch of ships to look for
the missiles that missed? A careful radar search should turn some up.
 >> Stay informed about: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? 

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:23:47 -0500, Don Sample
wrote:

>In article ,
> Loren Pechtel wrote:
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>> They seem to be engaging in a c-frac strike against orbital
>> infrastructure. Isn't that just asking for an Eridani violation? What
>> will the Sollies do if a round hits the planet?
>
>It's not really a c-frac strike. It's a bunch of stealthed missile pods
>coming in on a ballistic trajectory, at only .2c. Once they get in
>range of their targets, and have a good firing solution, they'll launch
>their missiles.
>
>They might even have some fail-safes in the plan. There could be a
>"freighter" in the Manticore system off-loading some cargo, that can
>transmit a final go/no-go message to the incoming pods, in case things
>have changed in the five months since the Sharks left Mesa, and they've
>changed their minds about making the strike.

But it's still objects at low relatavistic velocities engaging stuff
in orbit about a planet. One missed round will be devastating.
 >> Stay informed about: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? 

Loren Pechtel wrote:
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> They seem to be engaging in a c-frac strike against orbital
> infrastructure. Isn't that just asking for an Eridani violation? What
> will the Sollies do if a round hits the planet?


Celebrate?

They look to be in a shooting war with Manticore and the people actually
running the SLN don't seem to care about their laws as long as they are
the ones that break them. They will also know they didn't do it but
won't know who did.

I think these things will still have their drives running. I think they
will have some ability to redirect. However if Manticore is prepared to
stop a C-frac strike it ought not to work even though the drives won't
be what gives them away.

I have no clue how DW is going to play this.
 >> Stay informed about: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? 

J'hn1 wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:32:00 -0800, Loren Pechtel
> wrote:
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> You have to prove who did it first.
> Which would have, as a precondition, that you would have to have some
> idea of who did it.
>
> spoiler space
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> Since Mesa never declared war, and has never been seen to posess
> assets that could do this, they would likely not be approved for
> Eridani violation reprisals by the Solly entities.


However while Haven might seem like a good suspect having motive the
tech is too good and has to have it's source with the Sollies or
somebody tied to to the Sollies.

Manticore already knows that Mesa is out to get them by getting the
Sollies to attack and is most likely to be the source of the brain
control attacks. They have already been attacked by the Sollies. They
may well think Sollie secret weapons or Mesa at least once they have
second thoughts.
 >> Stay informed about: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? 

Don Sample wrote:
> In article ,
> Loren Pechtel wrote:
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>> They seem to be engaging in a c-frac strike against orbital
>> infrastructure. Isn't that just asking for an Eridani violation? What
>> will the Sollies do if a round hits the planet?
>
> It's not really a c-frac strike. It's a bunch of stealthed missile pods
> coming in on a ballistic trajectory, at only .2c. Once they get in
> range of their targets, and have a good firing solution, they'll launch
> their missiles.
>
> They might even have some fail-safes in the plan. There could be a
> "freighter" in the Manticore system off-loading some cargo, that can
> transmit a final go/no-go message to the incoming pods, in case things
> have changed in the five months since the Sharks left Mesa, and they've
> changed their minds about making the strike.
>


The problem being that if you can't see these things coming you are wide
open to C-frac attack. Since those have never worked that we know off...
 >> Stay informed about: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? 

Loren Pechtel wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:47:07 -0600, J'hn1 wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:32:00 -0800, Loren Pechtel
>> wrote:
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>> You have to prove who did it first.
>> Which would have, as a precondition, that you would have to have some
>> idea of who did it.
>>
>> spoiler space
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>> Since Mesa never declared war, and has never been seen to posess
>> assets that could do this, they would likely not be approved for
>> Eridani violation reprisals by the Solly entities.
>
> Disagree. I think Manticore will able to figure out a lot. In the
> aftermath of the attack they'll get the attack vector and
> velocity--what happens when they send out a bunch of ships to look for
> the missiles that missed? A careful radar search should turn some up.


The ones that miss should auto destruct.
 >> Stay informed about: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? 

Loren Pechtel wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:23:47 -0500, Don Sample
> wrote:
>
>> In article ,
>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
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>>> They seem to be engaging in a c-frac strike against orbital
>>> infrastructure. Isn't that just asking for an Eridani violation? What
>>> will the Sollies do if a round hits the planet?
>> It's not really a c-frac strike. It's a bunch of stealthed missile pods
>> coming in on a ballistic trajectory, at only .2c. Once they get in
>> range of their targets, and have a good firing solution, they'll launch
>> their missiles.
>>
>> They might even have some fail-safes in the plan. There could be a
>> "freighter" in the Manticore system off-loading some cargo, that can
>> transmit a final go/no-go message to the incoming pods, in case things
>> have changed in the five months since the Sharks left Mesa, and they've
>> changed their minds about making the strike.
>
> But it's still objects at low relatavistic velocities engaging stuff
> in orbit about a planet. One missed round will be devastating.


And where did you get the idea that Mesa was run by a bunch of bleeding
hearts?

This is the "You have to break some eggs to make an omelet," crowd.


One of their agents has already blown up a space station with 40,000
people on it.
 >> Stay informed about: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? 

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:50:23 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
wrote:

>Loren Pechtel wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:47:07 -0600, J'hn1 wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:32:00 -0800, Loren Pechtel
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
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>>> You have to prove who did it first.
>>> Which would have, as a precondition, that you would have to have some
>>> idea of who did it.
>>>
>>> spoiler space
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>>> Since Mesa never declared war, and has never been seen to posess
>>> assets that could do this, they would likely not be approved for
>>> Eridani violation reprisals by the Solly entities.
>>
>> Disagree. I think Manticore will able to figure out a lot. In the
>> aftermath of the attack they'll get the attack vector and
>> velocity--what happens when they send out a bunch of ships to look for
>> the missiles that missed? A careful radar search should turn some up.
>
>
>The ones that miss should auto destruct.

*SHOULD*. You really think they all will? Nothing will have been
knocked out of commission by it's long fall through space?
 >> Stay informed about: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? 

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:55:08 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
wrote:

>Loren Pechtel wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:23:47 -0500, Don Sample
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In article ,
>>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
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>>>> They seem to be engaging in a c-frac strike against orbital
>>>> infrastructure. Isn't that just asking for an Eridani violation? What
>>>> will the Sollies do if a round hits the planet?
>>> It's not really a c-frac strike. It's a bunch of stealthed missile pods
>>> coming in on a ballistic trajectory, at only .2c. Once they get in
>>> range of their targets, and have a good firing solution, they'll launch
>>> their missiles.
>>>
>>> They might even have some fail-safes in the plan. There could be a
>>> "freighter" in the Manticore system off-loading some cargo, that can
>>> transmit a final go/no-go message to the incoming pods, in case things
>>> have changed in the five months since the Sharks left Mesa, and they've
>>> changed their minds about making the strike.
>>
>> But it's still objects at low relatavistic velocities engaging stuff
>> in orbit about a planet. One missed round will be devastating.
>
>
>And where did you get the idea that Mesa was run by a bunch of bleeding
>hearts?
>
>This is the "You have to break some eggs to make an omelet," crowd.
>
>
>One of their agents has already blown up a space station with 40,000
>people on it.

I'm not saying Mesa will care one bit about the deaths. What I'm
saying is that if one hits a planet the Sollies might be mighty upset.
 >> Stay informed about: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? 

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:49:01 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
wrote:

>Don Sample wrote:
>> In article ,
>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
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>>> They seem to be engaging in a c-frac strike against orbital
>>> infrastructure. Isn't that just asking for an Eridani violation? What
>>> will the Sollies do if a round hits the planet?
>>
>> It's not really a c-frac strike. It's a bunch of stealthed missile pods
>> coming in on a ballistic trajectory, at only .2c. Once they get in
>> range of their targets, and have a good firing solution, they'll launch
>> their missiles.
>>
>> They might even have some fail-safes in the plan. There could be a
>> "freighter" in the Manticore system off-loading some cargo, that can
>> transmit a final go/no-go message to the incoming pods, in case things
>> have changed in the five months since the Sharks left Mesa, and they've
>> changed their minds about making the strike.
>>
>
>
>The problem being that if you can't see these things coming you are wide
>open to C-frac attack. Since those have never worked that we know off...

It's not that c-frac doesn't work. It's the danger posed by a miss
that hits a planet--Eridani violation.
 >> Stay informed about: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? 

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:39:28 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
wrote:

>Loren Pechtel wrote:
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>> They seem to be engaging in a c-frac strike against orbital
>> infrastructure. Isn't that just asking for an Eridani violation? What
>> will the Sollies do if a round hits the planet?
>
>
>Celebrate?
>
>They look to be in a shooting war with Manticore and the people actually
>running the SLN don't seem to care about their laws as long as they are
>the ones that break them. They will also know they didn't do it but
>won't know who did.

They very well might end up in a shooting war with Manticore but that
doesn't mean they won't react to the Eridani violation and if they
realize they've been duped into it by Mesa they might turn their
entire wrath on Mesa.

>I think these things will still have their drives running. I think they
>will have some ability to redirect. However if Manticore is prepared to

I'm sure they will--they can't have targets that far out. None are
going to malfunction on the way in, though? Most battles have some
missiles go wandering off, are these somehow immune to that?

>stop a C-frac strike it ought not to work even though the drives won't
>be what gives them away.
>
>I have no clue how DW is going to play this.

The hard part is finding them. They'll be easy enough to kill if
they're found. Remember, no impellers--that means no wedges to
protect them. Laser clusters will eat them up.

Furthermore, unless they are only picked up at the last little bit the
interceptors will be able to actually match course with them--the
lasers won't just get one shot, they'll get many. I wouldn't be
surprised if a destroyer could stop the entire strike given some hours
warning.

I also think Mesa won't have done the strike too well. Consider:

1) They have no experience with space combat. They'll be even worse
than the Sollies were.

2) We have already seen that they are rationalizing that things are
going to go as planned. They had no fallback plans when their ship
was caught.

3) Their whole thing smells of the super-elaborate plan that never
survives contact with the enemy.

4) They are elitists. They consider themselves superior--they're
going to consider their plans superior, also.
 >> Stay informed about: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? 

Loren Pechtel wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:39:28 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
> wrote:
>
>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
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>>> They seem to be engaging in a c-frac strike against orbital
>>> infrastructure. Isn't that just asking for an Eridani violation? What
>>> will the Sollies do if a round hits the planet?
>>
>> Celebrate?
>>
>> They look to be in a shooting war with Manticore and the people actually
>> running the SLN don't seem to care about their laws as long as they are
>> the ones that break them. They will also know they didn't do it but
>> won't know who did.
>
> They very well might end up in a shooting war with Manticore but that
> doesn't mean they won't react to the Eridani violation and if they
> realize they've been duped into it by Mesa they might turn their
> entire wrath on Mesa.

Yes that is clearly one of the major risks being run by
Mesa/manpower/whatever. It is extremely likely the people running the
League will figure this out and they most likely will hold a grudge.

It is not clear how high a priority an Eridani violation on a party with
whom they are more or less at war with would be with the League leaders
but given time they just might get around to acting if they figure out
who did it. I do suspect that this is going to be less important to them
than dealing with Manticore.

>
>> I think these things will still have their drives running. I think they
>> will have some ability to redirect. However if Manticore is prepared to
>
> I'm sure they will--they can't have targets that far out. None are
> going to malfunction on the way in, though? Most battles have some
> missiles go wandering off, are these somehow immune to that?
>
>> stop a C-frac strike it ought not to work even though the drives won't
>> be what gives them away.
>>
>> I have no clue how DW is going to play this.
>
> The hard part is finding them. They'll be easy enough to kill if
> they're found. Remember, no impellers--that means no wedges to
> protect them. Laser clusters will eat them up.
>
> Furthermore, unless they are only picked up at the last little bit the
> interceptors will be able to actually match course with them--the
> lasers won't just get one shot, they'll get many. I wouldn't be
> surprised if a destroyer could stop the entire strike given some hours
> warning.
>
> I also think Mesa won't have done the strike too well. Consider:
>
> 1) They have no experience with space combat. They'll be even worse
> than the Sollies were.

If I understood DW correctly these people have fewer illusions, have
been watching what is going on, and have been practicing trying to do it
right. That is a lot more than you can say for the SLN proper.

I'd have to go back and check to be sure but I think nobody in the SLN
proper is reported as having fired a missile at anyone in a century or
more other than the idiot that got himself killed. It must also be noted
that when they practice for war the admirals have the games rigged so
that they win.


>
> 2) We have already seen that they are rationalizing that things are
> going to go as planned. They had no fallback plans when their ship
> was caught.

You just lost me. When which ship was caught? In the book I read no ship
belonging to Mesa was listed as captured. A fleet of SS ships working
for them was trashed. A sollie ship was blown up and several frontier
fleet ships were forced to surrender but Mesa could have cared less if
all of those ships had been blown up. It would have worked great for them.

>
> 3) Their whole thing smells of the super-elaborate plan that never
> survives contact with the enemy.

Yes, much to complex.
>
> 4) They are elitists. They consider themselves superior--they're
> going to consider their plans superior, also.

Ya noticed. I think their top woman agent could smell things going south.

Course we don't know what DW will decide about that attack do we now?
It's all up to him.
 >> Stay informed about: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani??