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[Storm from the Shadows] Eridani??

 
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Brian McDonald

External


Since: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 299



(Msg. 121) Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:52 am
Post subject: Re: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>david-weber (more info?)

On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 19:51:27 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
wrote:

>Brian McDonald wrote:
>> On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 10:56:13 -0800, Loren Pechtel
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I also don't think they have Manticore's tiny fusion reactors--no
>>> power for mantaining shielding for the pod's long fall in. Is
>>> everything going to work properly when called upon? I serously doubt
>>> it!
>>
>> even if they had them particle shielding is probably detectable.
>> would nicely account for why stealthing ships slug around at low
>> speeds most of the time.
>
>I would think that would have to be correct.
>
>However another poster long ago noted that anything traveling really
>fast would disturb the solar wind and create changes around itself that
>would show up.

hmm it'd be the interaction with the solar wind ie particles or bits
of particles bouncing off you that would be detectable. perhaps if
you had magnets or absorbtive materials on the skin of the pods to
just soak up the solar wind you'd get around that problem. i seem to
remember we did somethign similar to capture comet particulate not
long ago.

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Loren Pechtel

External


Since: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 428



(Msg. 122) Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:26 pm
Post subject: Re: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 15:18:02 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
wrote:

>Loren Pechtel wrote:
>> On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:52:20 -0500, Don Sample
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In article ,
>>> "Dwight E. Howell" wrote:
>>>
>>>> Brian McDonald wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 19:25:19 -0500, Terry FitzSimons
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> So maybe the pods forward armor is heavily augmentated at the expense of
>>>>>> the other aspects. All it takes is one or more pieces of sand moving in a
>>>>>> different direction at a high enough speed to ram the pod in the side to
>>>>>> wreck the electronics and smash the last ditch self-destruct.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With the smashed electronics, the wake up signal is never sent to the
>>>>>> on-pod missiles, so they stay in the cruise safe mode and never transfer
>>>>>> into the war-shot mode, much less the self destruct cycle.
>>>>> the problem with this is the assumption there is only the one bit of
>>>>> self destruct circuitry involved. the cost/weight of multiply
>>>>> redundant self destruct systems should be utterly negligible.
>>>> There should be more than one system that could set off the bomb but
>>>> they will have only one bomb and it will most likely be nuclear.
>>>> Anything else that would do more than scatter the parts would be bigger
>>>> than the pod.
>>> In the case of a missile pod, you've got half a dozen or more missiles,
>>> any one of which could act as the self destruct for the pod. Missiles
>>> have their warheads, and also their drive mechanisms. All but the
>>> latest generation of Manti missiles use what are essentially large
>>> capacitors, charged up with enough power to vaporize the missile, to
>>> power their wedges. Any significant damage to the missile is likely to
>>> cause the storage system to catastrophically fail.
>>
>> The capacitor isn't going to be charged for weeks of fall. It's got
>> to be powered up just before launch.
>
>You want to try that one again?
>
>I don't care when it's charged. They all have to be charged for weeks of
>fall just like the space mines in a minefield would be.
>
>Your suggestion computes about as much for these people as saying a new
>car battery will go dead if you don't start your car in a week would for us.

Capacitors bleed charge away, they don't hold it for a long period of
time. The long-term power storage has to be something else.

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Loren Pechtel

External


Since: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 428



(Msg. 123) Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:26 pm
Post subject: Re: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 15:26:44 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
wrote:

>Loren Pechtel wrote:
>> On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:25:20 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 23:06:39 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:15:30 -0600, J'hn1 wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:08:28 -0800, Loren Pechtel
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> spoiler space
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> snip --what happens when they send out a bunch of ships to look for
>>>>>>>> the missiles that missed? A careful radar search should turn some up.
>>>>>>> That is current use tech. Note that when the Peeps killed Home fleet
>>>>>>> with litterally millions of missiles, nobody was concerned with misses
>>>>>>> overshooting Home Fleet hitting something that would trigger the Edict
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mesa certainly doesn't care about that, but certainly *does* care
>>>>>>> about keeping the technology secret as long as they can.
>>>>>> Note that Haven was *NOT* shooting near a planet. They deliberately
>>>>>> didn't use the planteary pods for this very reason.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mesa, however, is shooting for the orbital infrastructure--a shot that
>>>>>> people normally don't take for the risk of hitting the planet.
>>>>> It does depend on a planet being behind the target and no these people
>>>>> don't place much if any value on human life.
>>>>>
>>>>> At least in the short term I don't think they expect to be identified
>>>>> either.
>>>>>
>>>>> They could be wrong and I rather doubt that they are prepared for the
>>>>> full results of that. In that regard I think they are overconfident.
>>>>> They aren't planning for worst cases. I think that is mostly D's fault.
>>>> You're understating it--they aren't planning for failure, period, not
>>>> just worst cases.
>>> They had monica with a fall back in the SLN officer with the with
>>> Frontier fleet ships, and his fall back is a 100 ship fleet.
>>
>> No. There's only one bolt--that 100 ship fleet.
>>
>
>Wrong, the head guy himself made it clear that monica was the first
>plan, the single nut was the second with a fleet of battleships was B
>and a nut with a fleet of wallers was backing up that though if part A,
>monica had worked right the other two would have simply been handy to
>back him up and push the anti up.

I read it as three phases of one plan.

>> The first incident went down as planned.
>
>Monica did not go as planned.

No, I meant their second attempt to set up a fight with the Sollies.

>> What's supposed to happen is that the 100 of the wall smash what
>> Manticore has in Talbott--not that I think it's going to go down that
>> way.
>
>DW will play it his way. He said things will get rough for the good
>guys. When and were are waiting for the next book.

I think it's going to be a tough fight if they don't get sensible and
surrender when the leader is punched out.
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Dwight E. Howell

External


Since: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 136



(Msg. 124) Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:02 pm
Post subject: Re: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Loren Pechtel wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 15:18:02 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
> wrote:
>
>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>> On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:52:20 -0500, Don Sample
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article ,
>>>> "Dwight E. Howell" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Brian McDonald wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 19:25:19 -0500, Terry FitzSimons
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So maybe the pods forward armor is heavily augmentated at the expense of
>>>>>>> the other aspects. All it takes is one or more pieces of sand moving in a
>>>>>>> different direction at a high enough speed to ram the pod in the side to
>>>>>>> wreck the electronics and smash the last ditch self-destruct.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With the smashed electronics, the wake up signal is never sent to the
>>>>>>> on-pod missiles, so they stay in the cruise safe mode and never transfer
>>>>>>> into the war-shot mode, much less the self destruct cycle.
>>>>>> the problem with this is the assumption there is only the one bit of
>>>>>> self destruct circuitry involved. the cost/weight of multiply
>>>>>> redundant self destruct systems should be utterly negligible.
>>>>> There should be more than one system that could set off the bomb but
>>>>> they will have only one bomb and it will most likely be nuclear.
>>>>> Anything else that would do more than scatter the parts would be bigger
>>>>> than the pod.
>>>> In the case of a missile pod, you've got half a dozen or more missiles,
>>>> any one of which could act as the self destruct for the pod. Missiles
>>>> have their warheads, and also their drive mechanisms. All but the
>>>> latest generation of Manti missiles use what are essentially large
>>>> capacitors, charged up with enough power to vaporize the missile, to
>>>> power their wedges. Any significant damage to the missile is likely to
>>>> cause the storage system to catastrophically fail.
>>> The capacitor isn't going to be charged for weeks of fall. It's got
>>> to be powered up just before launch.
>> You want to try that one again?
>>
>> I don't care when it's charged. They all have to be charged for weeks of
>> fall just like the space mines in a minefield would be.
>>
>> Your suggestion computes about as much for these people as saying a new
>> car battery will go dead if you don't start your car in a week would for us.
>
> Capacitors bleed charge away, they don't hold it for a long period of
> time. The long-term power storage has to be something else.


Bleed them away to what how? In space you have a very nice insulator in
all directions.
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Dwight E. Howell

External


Since: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 136



(Msg. 125) Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:07 pm
Post subject: Re: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Loren Pechtel wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 15:26:44 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
> wrote:
>
>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>> On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:25:20 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 23:06:39 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:15:30 -0600, J'hn1 wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:08:28 -0800, Loren Pechtel
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> spoiler space
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> snip --what happens when they send out a bunch of ships to look for
>>>>>>>>> the missiles that missed? A careful radar search should turn some up.
>>>>>>>> That is current use tech. Note that when the Peeps killed Home fleet
>>>>>>>> with litterally millions of missiles, nobody was concerned with misses
>>>>>>>> overshooting Home Fleet hitting something that would trigger the Edict
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mesa certainly doesn't care about that, but certainly *does* care
>>>>>>>> about keeping the technology secret as long as they can.
>>>>>>> Note that Haven was *NOT* shooting near a planet. They deliberately
>>>>>>> didn't use the planteary pods for this very reason.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mesa, however, is shooting for the orbital infrastructure--a shot that
>>>>>>> people normally don't take for the risk of hitting the planet.
>>>>>> It does depend on a planet being behind the target and no these people
>>>>>> don't place much if any value on human life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At least in the short term I don't think they expect to be identified
>>>>>> either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They could be wrong and I rather doubt that they are prepared for the
>>>>>> full results of that. In that regard I think they are overconfident.
>>>>>> They aren't planning for worst cases. I think that is mostly D's fault.
>>>>> You're understating it--they aren't planning for failure, period, not
>>>>> just worst cases.
>>>> They had monica with a fall back in the SLN officer with the with
>>>> Frontier fleet ships, and his fall back is a 100 ship fleet.
>>> No. There's only one bolt--that 100 ship fleet.
>>>
>> Wrong, the head guy himself made it clear that monica was the first
>> plan, the single nut was the second with a fleet of battleships was B
>> and a nut with a fleet of wallers was backing up that though if part A,
>> monica had worked right the other two would have simply been handy to
>> back him up and push the anti up.
>
> I read it as three phases of one plan.
>
>>> The first incident went down as planned.
>> Monica did not go as planned.
>
> No, I meant their second attempt to set up a fight with the Sollies.
>
>>> What's supposed to happen is that the 100 of the wall smash what
>>> Manticore has in Talbott--not that I think it's going to go down that
>>> way.
>> DW will play it his way. He said things will get rough for the good
>> guys. When and were are waiting for the next book.
>
> I think it's going to be a tough fight if they don't get sensible and
> surrender when the leader is punched out.

You keep thinking that the flag ship is is flying a flag.

I don't thank the admiral's ship is going to be obvious especially after
what happened last time. Of course I could be wrong. She's still way to
confident.
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dsample

External


Since: Jul 01, 2004
Posts: 312



(Msg. 126) Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:14 pm
Post subject: Re: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article ,
Terry FitzSimons wrote:

> On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 21:11:33 -0500, Don Sample wrote:
>
> >In article ,
> > Terry FitzSimons wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 05:14:41 -0500, Don Sample wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article ,
> >> > Loren Pechtel wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> >> spoiler space
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >The planners of the Honorverse have had 1,000 years in which to see, and
> >> >think, of every which way such a plan could go wrong. Things like a
> >> >grain of sand hitting one of their pods will have been taken into
> >> >account. That's just part of the way the universe *is*. Designing pods
> >> >to deal with hazards like grains of sand would be like designing a car
> >> >with windshield wipers, 'cause even if it's clear an sunny today, you
> >> >know that tomorrow it might be raining, or snowing.
> >> >
> >> In most military craft designing, you have to give trade-off's. This has
> >> already been mentioned once, in that the top and bottom armor of starships
> >> are less due to the expectation that the wedge is the primary defense to
> >> things.
> >>
> >> So maybe the pods forward armor is heavily augmentated at the expense of
> >> the other aspects. All it takes is one or more pieces of sand moving in a
> >> different direction at a high enough speed to ram the pod in the side to
> >> wreck the electronics and smash the last ditch self-destruct.
> >>
> >> With the smashed electronics, the wake up signal is never sent to the
> >> on-pod missiles, so they stay in the cruise safe mode and never transfer
> >> into the war-shot mode, much less the self destruct cycle.
> >
> >They know that from pod release, to missile firing is 5 weeks. If the
> >missile hasn't been launched 36 days after the pod was released, it
> >isn't going to be, and its self destruct activates.
>
> If it still has one that working. With smashed electronics for the pod,
> there is no way to send the signal to any subordinate device, self-destruct
> or not, if there are multiple sand hits, its possible that the manual timer
> may have been scrapped at the same time.
>
> Then there is the possibility that one or more missile may wake up enough
> to query the main system for attack updates. But I really doubt that you
> want to tie up the few CPU cycles every once in a while asking for updates.
> You really never know when the CPU cycles are going to be needed and if the
> delay is just long enough to trigger the results of a dead pod system.
>
> Terry

This isn't complicated programming. It's something a 4004 could handle.
It isn't like a missile sitting in a pod waiting to be launched has a
whole lot of other things to be doing with its CPUs.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
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Loren Pechtel

External


Since: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 428



(Msg. 127) Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:33 pm
Post subject: Re: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:07:13 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
wrote:

>Loren Pechtel wrote:
>> On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 15:26:44 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:25:20 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 23:06:39 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:15:30 -0600, J'hn1 wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:08:28 -0800, Loren Pechtel
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> spoiler space
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> snip --what happens when they send out a bunch of ships to look for
>>>>>>>>>> the missiles that missed? A careful radar search should turn some up.
>>>>>>>>> That is current use tech. Note that when the Peeps killed Home fleet
>>>>>>>>> with litterally millions of missiles, nobody was concerned with misses
>>>>>>>>> overshooting Home Fleet hitting something that would trigger the Edict
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mesa certainly doesn't care about that, but certainly *does* care
>>>>>>>>> about keeping the technology secret as long as they can.
>>>>>>>> Note that Haven was *NOT* shooting near a planet. They deliberately
>>>>>>>> didn't use the planteary pods for this very reason.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mesa, however, is shooting for the orbital infrastructure--a shot that
>>>>>>>> people normally don't take for the risk of hitting the planet.
>>>>>>> It does depend on a planet being behind the target and no these people
>>>>>>> don't place much if any value on human life.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At least in the short term I don't think they expect to be identified
>>>>>>> either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They could be wrong and I rather doubt that they are prepared for the
>>>>>>> full results of that. In that regard I think they are overconfident.
>>>>>>> They aren't planning for worst cases. I think that is mostly D's fault.
>>>>>> You're understating it--they aren't planning for failure, period, not
>>>>>> just worst cases.
>>>>> They had monica with a fall back in the SLN officer with the with
>>>>> Frontier fleet ships, and his fall back is a 100 ship fleet.
>>>> No. There's only one bolt--that 100 ship fleet.
>>>>
>>> Wrong, the head guy himself made it clear that monica was the first
>>> plan, the single nut was the second with a fleet of battleships was B
>>> and a nut with a fleet of wallers was backing up that though if part A,
>>> monica had worked right the other two would have simply been handy to
>>> back him up and push the anti up.
>>
>> I read it as three phases of one plan.
>>
>>>> The first incident went down as planned.
>>> Monica did not go as planned.
>>
>> No, I meant their second attempt to set up a fight with the Sollies.
>>
>>>> What's supposed to happen is that the 100 of the wall smash what
>>>> Manticore has in Talbott--not that I think it's going to go down that
>>>> way.
>>> DW will play it his way. He said things will get rough for the good
>>> guys. When and were are waiting for the next book.
>>
>> I think it's going to be a tough fight if they don't get sensible and
>> surrender when the leader is punched out.
>
>You keep thinking that the flag ship is is flying a flag.
>
>I don't thank the admiral's ship is going to be obvious especially after
>what happened last time. Of course I could be wrong. She's still way to
>confident.

The fact that she could identify it the first time indicates they
don't have adequate comm security. That's not going to change for the
second force.
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Loren Pechtel

External


Since: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 428



(Msg. 128) Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:33 pm
Post subject: Re: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:02:55 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
wrote:

>Loren Pechtel wrote:
>> On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 15:18:02 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:52:20 -0500, Don Sample
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article ,
>>>>> "Dwight E. Howell" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Brian McDonald wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 19:25:19 -0500, Terry FitzSimons
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So maybe the pods forward armor is heavily augmentated at the expense of
>>>>>>>> the other aspects. All it takes is one or more pieces of sand moving in a
>>>>>>>> different direction at a high enough speed to ram the pod in the side to
>>>>>>>> wreck the electronics and smash the last ditch self-destruct.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With the smashed electronics, the wake up signal is never sent to the
>>>>>>>> on-pod missiles, so they stay in the cruise safe mode and never transfer
>>>>>>>> into the war-shot mode, much less the self destruct cycle.
>>>>>>> the problem with this is the assumption there is only the one bit of
>>>>>>> self destruct circuitry involved. the cost/weight of multiply
>>>>>>> redundant self destruct systems should be utterly negligible.
>>>>>> There should be more than one system that could set off the bomb but
>>>>>> they will have only one bomb and it will most likely be nuclear.
>>>>>> Anything else that would do more than scatter the parts would be bigger
>>>>>> than the pod.
>>>>> In the case of a missile pod, you've got half a dozen or more missiles,
>>>>> any one of which could act as the self destruct for the pod. Missiles
>>>>> have their warheads, and also their drive mechanisms. All but the
>>>>> latest generation of Manti missiles use what are essentially large
>>>>> capacitors, charged up with enough power to vaporize the missile, to
>>>>> power their wedges. Any significant damage to the missile is likely to
>>>>> cause the storage system to catastrophically fail.
>>>> The capacitor isn't going to be charged for weeks of fall. It's got
>>>> to be powered up just before launch.
>>> You want to try that one again?
>>>
>>> I don't care when it's charged. They all have to be charged for weeks of
>>> fall just like the space mines in a minefield would be.
>>>
>>> Your suggestion computes about as much for these people as saying a new
>>> car battery will go dead if you don't start your car in a week would for us.
>>
>> Capacitors bleed charge away, they don't hold it for a long period of
>> time. The long-term power storage has to be something else.
>
>
>Bleed them away to what how? In space you have a very nice insulator in
>all directions.

They bleed across their own dielectric.
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dsample

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Since: Jul 01, 2004
Posts: 312



(Msg. 129) Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:05 pm
Post subject: Re: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article ,
Loren Pechtel wrote:

> On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:02:55 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
> wrote:
>
> >Loren Pechtel wrote:
> >> On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 15:18:02 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
> >>>> On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:52:20 -0500, Don Sample
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> In article ,
> >>>>> "Dwight E. Howell" wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Brian McDonald wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 19:25:19 -0500, Terry FitzSimons
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So maybe the pods forward armor is heavily augmentated at the
> >>>>>>>> expense of
> >>>>>>>> the other aspects. All it takes is one or more pieces of sand
> >>>>>>>> moving in a
> >>>>>>>> different direction at a high enough speed to ram the pod in the
> >>>>>>>> side to
> >>>>>>>> wreck the electronics and smash the last ditch self-destruct.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> With the smashed electronics, the wake up signal is never sent to
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> on-pod missiles, so they stay in the cruise safe mode and never
> >>>>>>>> transfer
> >>>>>>>> into the war-shot mode, much less the self destruct cycle.
> >>>>>>> the problem with this is the assumption there is only the one bit of
> >>>>>>> self destruct circuitry involved. the cost/weight of multiply
> >>>>>>> redundant self destruct systems should be utterly negligible.
> >>>>>> There should be more than one system that could set off the bomb but
> >>>>>> they will have only one bomb and it will most likely be nuclear.
> >>>>>> Anything else that would do more than scatter the parts would be
> >>>>>> bigger
> >>>>>> than the pod.
> >>>>> In the case of a missile pod, you've got half a dozen or more missiles,
> >>>>> any one of which could act as the self destruct for the pod. Missiles
> >>>>> have their warheads, and also their drive mechanisms. All but the
> >>>>> latest generation of Manti missiles use what are essentially large
> >>>>> capacitors, charged up with enough power to vaporize the missile, to
> >>>>> power their wedges. Any significant damage to the missile is likely to
> >>>>> cause the storage system to catastrophically fail.
> >>>> The capacitor isn't going to be charged for weeks of fall. It's got
> >>>> to be powered up just before launch.
> >>> You want to try that one again?
> >>>
> >>> I don't care when it's charged. They all have to be charged for weeks of
> >>> fall just like the space mines in a minefield would be.
> >>>
> >>> Your suggestion computes about as much for these people as saying a new
> >>> car battery will go dead if you don't start your car in a week would for
> >>> us.
> >>
> >> Capacitors bleed charge away, they don't hold it for a long period of
> >> time. The long-term power storage has to be something else.
> >
> >
> >Bleed them away to what how? In space you have a very nice insulator in
> >all directions.
>
> They bleed across their own dielectric.

Of course they also aren't using anything that remotely resembles a 20th
century capacitor. DW has has some technobabble about using
superconductor rings and stuff like that.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
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Dwight E. Howell

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Since: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 136



(Msg. 130) Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:05 pm
Post subject: Re: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Loren Pechtel wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:07:13 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
> wrote:
>
>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>> On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 15:26:44 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:25:20 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 23:06:39 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:15:30 -0600, J'hn1 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:08:28 -0800, Loren Pechtel
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> spoiler space
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> snip --what happens when they send out a bunch of ships to look for
>>>>>>>>>>> the missiles that missed? A careful radar search should turn some up.
>>>>>>>>>> That is current use tech. Note that when the Peeps killed Home fleet
>>>>>>>>>> with litterally millions of missiles, nobody was concerned with misses
>>>>>>>>>> overshooting Home Fleet hitting something that would trigger the Edict
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mesa certainly doesn't care about that, but certainly *does* care
>>>>>>>>>> about keeping the technology secret as long as they can.
>>>>>>>>> Note that Haven was *NOT* shooting near a planet. They deliberately
>>>>>>>>> didn't use the planteary pods for this very reason.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mesa, however, is shooting for the orbital infrastructure--a shot that
>>>>>>>>> people normally don't take for the risk of hitting the planet.
>>>>>>>> It does depend on a planet being behind the target and no these people
>>>>>>>> don't place much if any value on human life.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At least in the short term I don't think they expect to be identified
>>>>>>>> either.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They could be wrong and I rather doubt that they are prepared for the
>>>>>>>> full results of that. In that regard I think they are overconfident.
>>>>>>>> They aren't planning for worst cases. I think that is mostly D's fault.
>>>>>>> You're understating it--they aren't planning for failure, period, not
>>>>>>> just worst cases.
>>>>>> They had monica with a fall back in the SLN officer with the with
>>>>>> Frontier fleet ships, and his fall back is a 100 ship fleet.
>>>>> No. There's only one bolt--that 100 ship fleet.
>>>>>
>>>> Wrong, the head guy himself made it clear that monica was the first
>>>> plan, the single nut was the second with a fleet of battleships was B
>>>> and a nut with a fleet of wallers was backing up that though if part A,
>>>> monica had worked right the other two would have simply been handy to
>>>> back him up and push the anti up.
>>> I read it as three phases of one plan.
>>>
>>>>> The first incident went down as planned.
>>>> Monica did not go as planned.
>>> No, I meant their second attempt to set up a fight with the Sollies.
>>>
>>>>> What's supposed to happen is that the 100 of the wall smash what
>>>>> Manticore has in Talbott--not that I think it's going to go down that
>>>>> way.
>>>> DW will play it his way. He said things will get rough for the good
>>>> guys. When and were are waiting for the next book.
>>> I think it's going to be a tough fight if they don't get sensible and
>>> surrender when the leader is punched out.
>> You keep thinking that the flag ship is is flying a flag.
>>
>> I don't thank the admiral's ship is going to be obvious especially after
>> what happened last time. Of course I could be wrong. She's still way to
>> confident.
>
> The fact that she could identify it the first time indicates they
> don't have adequate comm security. That's not going to change for the
> second force.

Up to Weber. If you read the report on the event it stands out and I
think Weber also said that this data point was left over from what
Henke's force picked up from the observation equipment left behind.

In other words he didn't say Henke picked it up by directly observing
the FF force after they arrived in system.

If the Alliance forces do know it would be a good trick to pull.
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Dwight E. Howell

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Since: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 136



(Msg. 131) Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:08 pm
Post subject: Re: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Loren Pechtel wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:02:55 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
> wrote:
>
>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>> On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 15:18:02 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:52:20 -0500, Don Sample
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article ,
>>>>>> "Dwight E. Howell" wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brian McDonald wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 19:25:19 -0500, Terry FitzSimons
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So maybe the pods forward armor is heavily augmentated at the expense of
>>>>>>>>> the other aspects. All it takes is one or more pieces of sand moving in a
>>>>>>>>> different direction at a high enough speed to ram the pod in the side to
>>>>>>>>> wreck the electronics and smash the last ditch self-destruct.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> With the smashed electronics, the wake up signal is never sent to the
>>>>>>>>> on-pod missiles, so they stay in the cruise safe mode and never transfer
>>>>>>>>> into the war-shot mode, much less the self destruct cycle.
>>>>>>>> the problem with this is the assumption there is only the one bit of
>>>>>>>> self destruct circuitry involved. the cost/weight of multiply
>>>>>>>> redundant self destruct systems should be utterly negligible.
>>>>>>> There should be more than one system that could set off the bomb but
>>>>>>> they will have only one bomb and it will most likely be nuclear.
>>>>>>> Anything else that would do more than scatter the parts would be bigger
>>>>>>> than the pod.
>>>>>> In the case of a missile pod, you've got half a dozen or more missiles,
>>>>>> any one of which could act as the self destruct for the pod. Missiles
>>>>>> have their warheads, and also their drive mechanisms. All but the
>>>>>> latest generation of Manti missiles use what are essentially large
>>>>>> capacitors, charged up with enough power to vaporize the missile, to
>>>>>> power their wedges. Any significant damage to the missile is likely to
>>>>>> cause the storage system to catastrophically fail.
>>>>> The capacitor isn't going to be charged for weeks of fall. It's got
>>>>> to be powered up just before launch.
>>>> You want to try that one again?
>>>>
>>>> I don't care when it's charged. They all have to be charged for weeks of
>>>> fall just like the space mines in a minefield would be.
>>>>
>>>> Your suggestion computes about as much for these people as saying a new
>>>> car battery will go dead if you don't start your car in a week would for us.
>>> Capacitors bleed charge away, they don't hold it for a long period of
>>> time. The long-term power storage has to be something else.
>>
>> Bleed them away to what how? In space you have a very nice insulator in
>> all directions.
>
> They bleed across their own dielectric.

That depends on what their tech is and I admit I don't have a clue.
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Dwight E. Howell

External


Since: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 136



(Msg. 132) Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:10 pm
Post subject: Re: [Storm from the Shadows] Eridani?? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Don Sample wrote:
> In article ,
> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:02:55 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 15:18:02 -0600, "Dwight E. Howell"
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:52:20 -0500, Don Sample
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article ,
>>>>>>> "Dwight E. Howell" wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Brian McDonald wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 19:25:19 -0500, Terry FitzSimons
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So maybe the pods forward armor is heavily augmentated at the
>>>>>>>>>> expense of
>>>>>>>>>> the other aspects. All it takes is one or more pieces of sand
>>>>>>>>>> moving in a
>>>>>>>>>> different direction at a high enough speed to ram the pod in the
>>>>>>>>>> side to
>>>>>>>>>> wreck the electronics and smash the last ditch self-destruct.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> With the smashed electronics, the wake up signal is never sent to
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> on-pod missiles, so they stay in the cruise safe mode and never
>>>>>>>>>> transfer
>>>>>>>>>> into the war-shot mode, much less the self destruct cycle.
>>>>>>>>> the problem with this is the assumption there is only the one bit of
>>>>>>>>> self destruct circuitry involved. the cost/weight of multiply
>>>>>>>>> redundant self destruct systems should be utterly negligible.
>>>>>>>> There should be more than one system that could set off the bomb but
>>>>>>>> they will have only one bomb and it will most likely be nuclear.
>>>>>>>> Anything else that would do more than scatter the parts would be
>>>>>>>> bigger
>>>>>>>> than the pod.
>>>>>>> In the case of a missile pod, you've got half a dozen or more missiles,
>>>>>>> any one of which could act as the self destruct for the pod. Missiles
>>>>>>> have their warheads, and also their drive mechanisms. All but the
>>>>>>> latest generation of Manti missiles use what are essentially large
>>>>>>> capacitors, charged up with enough power to vaporize the missile, to
>>>>>>> power their wedges. Any significant damage to the missile is likely to
>>>>>>> cause the storage system to catastrophically fail.
>>>>>> The capacitor isn't going to be charged for weeks of fall. It's got
>>>>>> to be powered up just before launch.
>>>>> You want to try that one again?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't care when it's charged. They all have to be charged for weeks of
>>>>> fall just like the space mines in a minefield would be.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your suggestion computes about as much for these people as saying a new
>>>>> car battery will go dead if you don't start your car in a week would for
>>>>> us.
>>>> Capacitors bleed charge away, they don't hold it for a long period of
>>>> time. The long-term power storage has to be something else.
>>>
>>> Bleed them away to what how? In space you have a very nice insulator in
>>> all directions.
>> They bleed across their own dielectric.
>
> Of course they also aren't using anything that remotely resembles a 20th
> century capacitor. DW has has some technobabble about using
> superconductor rings and stuff like that.
>

In theory you can put a charge on a super conductor ring and it will
keep circling for ever.
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