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External
Since: Dec 25, 2006
Posts: 38
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:40 am
Post subject: TWHF: What did Bardia see?
Archived from groups: alt>books>cs-lewis (more info?)
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Spoiler for TILL WE HAVE FACES
Spoiler for TILL WE HAVE FACES
Spoiler for TILL WE HAVE FACES
Spoiler for TILL WE HAVE FACES
Spoiler for TILL WE HAVE FACES
Spoiler for TILL WE HAVE FACES
Spoiler for TILL WE HAVE FACES
Spoiler for TILL WE HAVE FACES
Orual saw no palace and Psyche in rags. Bardia saw Psyche close enough to
say that she was healthy and in her right mind. So -- what did he see her
wearing? And did he see the palace?
Sorry if this sounds like the sort of question someone asks about
Narnia.  I really want to know if I've missed something.
Bree |
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External
Since: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 68
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:20 pm
Post subject: Re: TWHF: What did Bardia see? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:40:14 UTC, Bree <no.RemoveThis@no.com> wrote:
>
> Spoiler for TILL WE HAVE FACES
>
>
>
>
>
> Orual saw no palace and Psyche in rags. Bardia saw Psyche close enough to
> say that she was healthy and in her right mind. So -- what did he see her
> wearing? And did he see the palace?
I really don't know. It's a reminder that the time is rolling around when
I have to read the book again.
But the rags raise a mental association that could be almost relevant. I'm
picturing an old Chinese wood carving of Li Tieguai, one of the Eight
Immortals, in which, per traditions, his emaciated body is draped in old
rags full of holes -- and the rags hang down gracefully and elegantly over
the clouds on which he's walking, and beneath his benign wise-old-Asian
face. This description doesn't do it justice, of course, but maybe it
gets across the idea that the rags are transfigured.
Getting to my point of view, based on not having read the book in a long
time: No, not being god-intoxicated, Bardia didn't see the palace. And he
saw
The lesson that my doggedly rationalist view takes from this is with what
Orual "knew or ought to have known" as the lawyers say. Naturally Psyche's
situation is dire, living on that desolate cold mountaintop. Orual is
supposed to believe that everything is ok? When the gods have cheated her
of any ability to see the mystical palace and all, is that her fault?
Well, yes: you can SEE that Psyche is thriving physically in a way wholly
inconsistent with your understanding of the dire conditions. Mere
observation and reason will tell you that something's crazy here -- if you
have not, like poor Orual, blinded yourself by being wedded to your old
views.
Not that the world really is this fair; but novel is about a world that
plays honestly according to its own rules.
Other people will probably draw other conclusions.
--
Dan Drake
dd.RemoveThis@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/
porlockjr.blogspot.com |
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Since: Dec 25, 2006
Posts: 38
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:34 pm
Post subject: Re: TWHF: What did Bardia see? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 22 Jun 2007 22:20:11 GMT, Dan Drake wrote:
/snip/
> The lesson that my doggedly rationalist view takes from this is with what
> Orual "knew or ought to have known" as the lawyers say. Naturally Psyche's
> situation is dire, living on that desolate cold mountaintop. Orual is
> supposed to believe that everything is ok? When the gods have cheated her
> of any ability to see the mystical palace and all, is that her fault?
> Well, yes: you can SEE that Psyche is thriving physically in a way wholly
> inconsistent with your understanding of the dire conditions. Mere
> observation and reason will tell you that something's crazy here
I'm not sure that living healthy in dire conditions (especially with a
bandit supposedly bringing her food) is all that crazy; yogis do it after
all.
But on this re-reading, I am seeing almost a checklist of things that could
have prevented Orual's terrible mistake. Are classic tragedies like this?
-- the audience knows what will happen and watches the characters miss one
chance after another.
Leaving aside emotional sins, it looks to me like the key was Orual's
haste, her setting an unnecessary deadline of 'not one more night.' Fox had
talked about haste -- before Psyche was exposed to too much bad weather, or
got pregnant. Then Fox went to bed; so Orual cut him out of the loop,
setting off next morning before he woke.
Bree >> Stay informed about: TWHF: What did Bardia see? |
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Since: Oct 11, 2003
Posts: 84
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:13 am
Post subject: Re: TWHF: What did Bardia see? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:40:14 UTC, Bree <no.DeleteThis@no.com> wrote:
> Spoiler for TILL WE HAVE FACES
>
>
>
>
>
> Orual saw no palace and Psyche in rags. Bardia saw Psyche close enough to
> say that she was healthy and in her right mind. So -- what did he see her
> wearing? And did he see the palace?
My reading is that he saw exactly what Orual saw. He saw her in rags,
and no palace. But he had believed, immediately, that she was a goddess
(or at least, truly the wife of the god), and evidently having no
preconceptions about how gods should appear to mortals, was not
surprised by the apparently inconsistent trappings.
Best wishes,
Matthew0
--
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~m_collett >> Stay informed about: TWHF: What did Bardia see? |
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Since: Mar 22, 2007
Posts: 29
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:32 pm
Post subject: Re: TWHF: What did Bardia see? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Bree <no.TakeThisOut@no.com> wrote in
news:1bcygufniaf1c.v2sfbnk6n872$.dlg@40tude.net:
> On 22 Jun 2007 22:20:11 GMT, Dan Drake wrote:
> ...
> Leaving aside emotional sins, it looks to me like the key was Orual's
> haste, her setting an unnecessary deadline of 'not one more night.'
> Fox had talked about haste -- before Psyche was exposed to too much
> bad weather, or got pregnant. Then Fox went to bed; so Orual cut him
> out of the loop, setting off next morning before he woke.
> Bree
I think Orual's main sin was her decision to "rescue" her sister (reassert
control in the name of her real love and concern) in the face of her being
the wife of the god. Orual's test of faith in the gods, which she failed,
was the rainshower that came when the sisters were arguing. This enabled
her to see Psyche as sick despite appearances to the contrary, and to treat
her as a madwoman whose arguments and desires could be ignored.
The "not one more night" decision, to the effect that Orual could not allow
Psyche's destiny to play out, I see as the moment when Orual truly embraced
her role in the "myth retold". She, a mortal, decides to interfere in a
divine story by causing disobedience to the command of a benevolent god.
"Woe be unto him by whom the evil cometh."
The principal behind Orual's subsequent life, in which she seeks to kill
off her true, miserable self, is a wonderfully intricate way of showing
good coming out of evil (as well as a just execution, perhaps). For as
Orual strengthens the Queen aspect of her personality, she is so much
better a ruler than her father was that for most of the people, her reign
is a golden age (which perhaps can also be seen as result of the old
Sacrifice of the Accursed?)
Roberto Abajo >> Stay informed about: TWHF: What did Bardia see? |
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Since: Oct 08, 2003
Posts: 66
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:15 am
Post subject: Re: TWHF: What did Bardia see? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <1bcygufniaf1c.v2sfbnk6n872$.dlg@40tude.net>, Bree
<no.RemoveThis@no.com> wrote:
> But on this re-reading, I am seeing almost a checklist of things that could
> have prevented Orual's terrible mistake. Are classic tragedies like this?
> -- the audience knows what will happen and watches the characters miss one
> chance after another.
Oohh, yes. I have read /Oedipus/ /the/ /King/ several times, heard it
on the radio, and seen it staged at least once. _Every_ time I
experience that play, I chew my nails hoping that somehow, _this_ time,
Oedipus will beat the rap. (He never does.) And Teiresias lays it out
for him pretty clearly in Act 1.
--
Chris Henrich
http://www.mathinteract.com
God just doesn't fit inside a single religion. >> Stay informed about: TWHF: What did Bardia see? |
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Since: Jun 18, 2007
Posts: 3
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:46 pm
Post subject: Re: TWHF: What did Bardia see? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Hi Matthew;
I hope all you you will forgive a question that is somewhat off-
subject. Here it is: I entered the website you presented in Auckland
and found trhe link to <<Schola>>. I am very, very edified by the
Gregorian chant and its contingent, as well as by the chant of the
Eastern Rite and Ooriental Rite--all of them. I commend your
<<Schola>> site very strongly. The music is very edifying, and the
media, Box, is a dream to use. Well done. Now where there's smoke, I
sometimes hope for fire. Can you help me find more such Ancient
Church chants like Schola from any of ther ancient Churches: Very
early Anglican and Lutheran, Roman Catholic and the Eastern and
Oriental Churches? ADVISE.
Robb
On Jun 22, 6:13 pm, Matthew Collett <m.coll... RemoveThis @auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:40:14 UTC, Bree <n... RemoveThis @no.com> wrote:
> > Spoiler for TILL WE HAVE FACES
>
> > Orual saw no palace and Psyche in rags. Bardia saw Psyche close enough to
> > say that she was healthy and in her right mind. So -- what did he see her
> > wearing? And did he see the palace?
>
> My reading is that he saw exactly what Orual saw. He saw her in rags,
> and no palace. But he had believed, immediately, that she was a goddess
> (or at least, truly the wife of the god), and evidently having no
> preconceptions about how gods should appear to mortals, was not
> surprised by the apparently inconsistent trappings.
>
> Best wishes,
> Matthew0
>
> --http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~m_collett >> Stay informed about: TWHF: What did Bardia see? |
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Since: Oct 11, 2003
Posts: 84
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:39 pm
Post subject: Re: TWHF: What did Bardia see? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <1182717994.973322.263160 RemoveThis @z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
sergios <robb7thurston RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Matthew;
> I hope all you you will forgive a question that is somewhat off-
> subject. Here it is: I entered the website you presented in Auckland
> and found trhe link to <<Schola>>. I am very, very edified by the
> Gregorian chant and its contingent, as well as by the chant of the
> Eastern Rite and Ooriental Rite--all of them. I commend your
> <<Schola>> site very strongly. The music is very edifying, and the
> media, Box, is a dream to use. Well done. Now where there's smoke, I
> sometimes hope for fire. Can you help me find more such Ancient
> Church chants like Schola from any of ther ancient Churches: Very
> early Anglican and Lutheran, Roman Catholic and the Eastern and
> Oriental Churches? ADVISE.
> Robb
Robb,
Thanks for the positive comments about the Schola website. As you
will have seen, our downloadable recordings don't currently include any
Gregorian chant. We do certainly sing it, and I hope that some chant
recordings will be added to the website over the coming months.
As far as other chant traditions go, I can't suggest any particular
sources, but while you are exploring the dying embers of Usenet, you
might like to amble over to rec.music.early, where there are a few
stalwarts who doubtless could enlighten you.
Best wishes,
Matthew
--
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~m_collett >> Stay informed about: TWHF: What did Bardia see? |
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Since: Dec 25, 2006
Posts: 38
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:29 pm
Post subject: Re: TWHF: What did Bardia see? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 22:32:43 GMT, Roberto Abajo wrote:
> Bree <no.DeleteThis@no.com> wrote in
> news:1bcygufniaf1c.v2sfbnk6n872$.dlg@40tude.net:
>
>> On 22 Jun 2007 22:20:11 GMT, Dan Drake wrote:
>> ...
>> Leaving aside emotional sins, it looks to me like the key was Orual's
>> haste, her setting an unnecessary deadline of 'not one more night.'
>> Fox had talked about haste -- before Psyche was exposed to too much
>> bad weather, or got pregnant. Then Fox went to bed; so Orual cut him
>> out of the loop, setting off next morning before he woke.
>> Bree
>
> I think Orual's main sin was her decision to "rescue" her sister (reassert
> control in the name of her real love and concern) in the face of her being
> the wife of the god. /snip/
Yes, in context it was 'not one more night in those detestable embraces.'
Orual was freaked out imagining Psyche having sexual relations even with a
(presumably healthy) outlaw. Better she should have let Psyche risk
pregnancy for a few more nights, while they all negotiated, than forcing
the issue as she did.
> The "not one more night" decision, to the effect that Orual could not allow
> Psyche's destiny to play out, I see as the moment when Orual truly embraced
> her role in the "myth retold". She, a mortal, decides to interfere in a
> divine story by causing disobedience to the command of a benevolent god.
> "Woe be unto him by whom the evil cometh."
Yes, though of course Orual didn't know he was benevolent (nor really a
god). If Orual had been willing to let Fox have his sleep and breakfast,
then consult him again, it might all have been worked out amicably. Fox and
Psyche had both (separately) seen a problem with several sides, and were
looking (separately) for ways to solve it. Psyche had tried to reason with
Orual, and then had said she'd consult the Mountain God and ask him to help
Orual's sight; and I'm sure Psyche was looking for other practical
solutions. The Fox, after initial shock, had come round to the idea that an
'outlaw' might not necessarily be a bad man (after all he was making Psyche
happy and healthy).
Oh for a fan-fic where Fox visits the mountain (expecting to negotiate with
an outlaw) and he and Psyche get together and figure something out.
Oh for Flora Whosis from COLD COMFORT FARM, to give her birth control stuff
instead of an oil lamp. The Mountain God never forbade that, did he?
> The principal behind Orual's subsequent life, in which she seeks to kill
> off her true, miserable self, is a wonderfully intricate way of showing
> good coming out of evil (as well as a just execution, perhaps). For as
> Orual strengthens the Queen aspect of her personality, she is so much
> better a ruler than her father was that for most of the people, her reign
> is a golden age (which perhaps can also be seen as result of the old
> Sacrifice of the Accursed?)
Well, Orual would probably have been a good queen anyway (though perhaps
not so hard-working). It's to her credit that she tried to forget by
devoting herself to good works instead of indulgence or taking up cruelty
herself (as some abuse victims do).
Bree >> Stay informed about: TWHF: What did Bardia see? |
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