 |
|
|
|
Next: What book is this?
|
| Author |
Message |
External
Since: May 16, 2006
Posts: 104
|
(Msg. 16) Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:16 am
Post subject: Re: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>books, others (more info?)
|
|
|
delcolja DeleteThis @mail.ab.edu wrote:
> Richard Fangnail wrote:
> > I saw a ridiculous debate on Fox News between about the newly elected
> > congressman (Ellison) who wants to take the oath on a Koran. There is
> > no rule that says you have to use the Christian Bible ...
>
> In fact, Article Vi of the US Constitution states flatly "...no
> religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office
> or public Trust under the United States."
>
> I wonder if that congressional moron from Virginia who circulated a
> letter objecting to Ellison's choice has ever read the First Amendment
> or Article VI.
Evidently not, which raises the question of how
he can honestly take an oath to support it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 | |
External
Since: Jan 03, 2007
Posts: 7
|
(Msg. 17) Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:01 am
Post subject: Re: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
delcolja.RemoveThis@mail.ab.edu wrote:
> In fact, Article Vi of the US Constitution states flatly "...no
> religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office
> or public Trust under the United States."
>
> I wonder if that congressional moron from Virginia who circulated a
> letter objecting to Ellison's choice has ever read the First Amendment
> or Article VI.
I suspect not. In fact, I'd believe an oath taken by the gentleman from
Minnesota over a Koran long before I'd believe it if it were taken over a Bible.
Does anybody think he'd take the Bible as binding?
I'd put it his way: if the congressman from Virginia were to swear on the Koran,
would he feel any obligation to honor that oath? I wouldn't. Likewise, I doubt
a Muslim feels any obligation to honor an oath taken over a Bible. Why should
he?
--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Mar 09, 2004
Posts: 196
|
(Msg. 18) Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:37 am
Post subject: Re: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>books (more info?)
|
|
|
delcolja.TakeThisOut@mail.ab.edu wrote:
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
>> I suspect not. In fact, I'd believe an oath taken by the gentleman from
>> Minnesota over a Koran long before I'd believe it if it were taken over a Bible.
>> Does anybody think he'd take the Bible as binding?.....
>
>
> The oath is binding no matter what book is used. It's the oath that
> counts, not the book.
>
and we all know that our congresspeople never lie ... >> Stay informed about: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Feb 22, 2005
Posts: 48
|
(Msg. 19) Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:56 am
Post subject: Re: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>books, others (more info?)
|
|
|
Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> Alan Hope wrote:
> > Erm, there's the small issue of your word as you speak it. Does that
> > count for nothing? If you give a promise in the absence of a holy
> > book, do you feel free to break it? If not, why not? If the nature of
> > the book sworn upon is the determining factor, why should anyone
> > accept your word for anything?
>
>
> It is my understanding that there is no moral consequence within Islam to lying
> to an Infidel.
Even if that were true, it's irrelevant to the case.
Any Congressman who acts contrary to his oath may face consequences
outside Islam.
J. Del Col >> Stay informed about: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jan 03, 2007
Posts: 7
|
(Msg. 20) Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
Alan Hope wrote:
> Erm, there's the small issue of your word as you speak it. Does that
> count for nothing? If you give a promise in the absence of a holy
> book, do you feel free to break it? If not, why not? If the nature of
> the book sworn upon is the determining factor, why should anyone
> accept your word for anything?
It is my understanding that there is no moral consequence within Islam to lying
to an Infidel.
--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com >> Stay informed about: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jan 03, 2007
Posts: 1
|
(Msg. 21) Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
Richard Fangnail wrote:
> I saw a ridiculous debate on Fox News between about the newly elected
> congressman (Ellison) who wants to take the oath on a Koran. There is
> no rule that says you have to use the Christian Bible so it's within
> Ellison's rights to do so. People have argued "Well what if somebody
> wanted to use Mein Kampf?" If that happened, I'd be more concerned
> about the person taking the oath than the book he used for the oath.
>
> Actually I am concerned about Ellison's past connections with
> extremists.
The copy of the Koran Ellison is using for his private swearing in
ceremony is a rare
18th century copy of the Koran from the Library of Congress.
The previous owner of the book was Thomas Jefferson. >> Stay informed about: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Mar 09, 2004
Posts: 83
|
(Msg. 22) Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
delcolja.TakeThisOut@mail.ab.edu wrote:
> IIRC, John Quincy Adams took the oath of office as President with his
> hand on a law book.
>
> J. Del Col
I believe that John Adams also wanted to US Postal Service to deliver mail
seven days a week, on the principle that observing a religious sabbath was
establishing religion. So much for those who claim that no intent to keep
church and state strictly separate existed amongst the founders. >> Stay informed about: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Sep 12, 2004
Posts: 131
|
(Msg. 23) Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
Mortimer Schnerd, RN goes:
>I'd put it his way: if the congressman from Virginia were to swear on the Koran,
>would he feel any obligation to honor that oath? I wouldn't. Likewise, I doubt
>a Muslim feels any obligation to honor an oath taken over a Bible. Why should
>he?
Erm, there's the small issue of your word as you speak it. Does that
count for nothing? If you give a promise in the absence of a holy
book, do you feel free to break it? If not, why not? If the nature of
the book sworn upon is the determining factor, why should anyone
accept your word for anything?
--
AH
http://this-thing-of-ours.blogspot.com >> Stay informed about: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Mar 09, 2004
Posts: 196
|
(Msg. 24) Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
azindn wrote:
> Richard Fangnail wrote:
>> Actually I am concerned about Ellison's past connections with
>> extremists.
>
> The copy of the Koran Ellison is using for his private swearing in
> ceremony is a rare
> 18th century copy of the Koran from the Library of Congress.
>
> The previous owner of the book was Thomas Jefferson.
>
You mean he was a terrorist too ?
BTW, Fangnail is a troll and it's best to ignore him. >> Stay informed about: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Sep 12, 2004
Posts: 131
|
(Msg. 25) Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
Mortimer Schnerd, RN goes:
>Alan Hope wrote:
>> Erm, there's the small issue of your word as you speak it. Does that
>> count for nothing? If you give a promise in the absence of a holy
>> book, do you feel free to break it? If not, why not? If the nature of
>> the book sworn upon is the determining factor, why should anyone
>> accept your word for anything?
>It is my understanding that there is no moral consequence within Islam to lying
>to an Infidel.
I'm quite sure you'll be able to provide an authoritative cite for
that understanding.
But I was more concerned with your ad hoc trustworthiness. You
appeared to be saying an oath on the Bible was to be trusted, and one
on the Koran (by you) not. I asked whether one ought to trust a
promise given by you on no holy book at all, and you've declined to
answer.
--
AH
http://this-thing-of-ours.blogspot.com >> Stay informed about: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jan 03, 2007
Posts: 2
|
(Msg. 26) Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
Article 6 only requires an "Oath or Affirmation"; the oath as
administered by the Speaker is cited correctly. However, in Section 3
of Article 6, Clause Six clearly states that "no religious test shall
ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under
the United States." This pretty much blows any mention of any deity or
sub-deity right out of the argument.
Stay Cool,
Tom P.
Francis A. Miniter wrote:
> Guy Bannis wrote:
> > In article <1167762322.165004.5370 RemoveThis @k21g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Richard Fangnail" <richardfangnail RemoveThis @excite.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I saw a ridiculous debate on Fox News between about the newly elected
> >>congressman (Ellison) who wants to take the oath on a Koran. There is
> >>no rule that says you have to use the Christian Bible so it's within
> >>Ellison's rights to do so.
> >
> >
> > Well within his rights.
> >
> > In fact, there is no formal or official swearing-in ceremony for
> > Congressmen at all.
> >
> > What Ellison plans to do takes place in private with no official meaning.
>
>
> From the FAQ for the House of Representatives:
>
> ----------------------
> 3. Do Members take an Oath of Office when they enter the House of Representatives?
>
> As required by Article 6 of the U.S. Constitution, Members of Congress shall be
> bound by oath or affirmation to support the Constitution. Representatives,
> delegates, and the resident commissioner all take the oath of office on the
> first day of the new Congress, immediately after the House has elected its
> Speaker. The Speaker of the House administers the oath of office as follows:
>
> "I, (name of Member), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and
> defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or
> domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take
> this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion;
> and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which
> I am about to enter. So help me God."
>
> Representatives elected in special elections during the course of a Congress
> generally take the oath of office on the floor of the House Chamber when the
> Clerk of the House has received a formal notice of the new Member's election or
> appointment from State government authorities. On rare occasions, because of
> illness or other circumstances, a Member-elect has been authorized to take the
> oath of office at a place other than the House. In those circumstances, the
> Clerk of the House sees to the proper administration of the oath.
> -------------------------
>
> See http://clerk.house.gov/members/memFAQ.html#oath
>
>
> It does not even require an oath. An affirmation will do.
>
>
>
> Francis A. Miniter >> Stay informed about: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jan 03, 2007
Posts: 2
|
(Msg. 27) Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
Article 6 only requires an "Oath or Affirmation"; the oath as
administered by the Speaker is cited correctly. However, in Section 3
of Article 6, Clause Six clearly states that "no religious test shall
ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under
the United States." This pretty much blows any mention of any deity or
sub-deity right out of the argument.
Stay Cool,
Tom P.
Francis A. Miniter wrote:
> Guy Bannis wrote:
> > In article <1167762322.165004.5370.TakeThisOut@k21g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Richard Fangnail" <richardfangnail.TakeThisOut@excite.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I saw a ridiculous debate on Fox News between about the newly elected
> >>congressman (Ellison) who wants to take the oath on a Koran. There is
> >>no rule that says you have to use the Christian Bible so it's within
> >>Ellison's rights to do so.
> >
> >
> > Well within his rights.
> >
> > In fact, there is no formal or official swearing-in ceremony for
> > Congressmen at all.
> >
> > What Ellison plans to do takes place in private with no official meaning.
>
>
> From the FAQ for the House of Representatives:
>
> ----------------------
> 3. Do Members take an Oath of Office when they enter the House of Representatives?
>
> As required by Article 6 of the U.S. Constitution, Members of Congress shall be
> bound by oath or affirmation to support the Constitution. Representatives,
> delegates, and the resident commissioner all take the oath of office on the
> first day of the new Congress, immediately after the House has elected its
> Speaker. The Speaker of the House administers the oath of office as follows:
>
> "I, (name of Member), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and
> defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or
> domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take
> this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion;
> and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which
> I am about to enter. So help me God."
>
> Representatives elected in special elections during the course of a Congress
> generally take the oath of office on the floor of the House Chamber when the
> Clerk of the House has received a formal notice of the new Member's election or
> appointment from State government authorities. On rare occasions, because of
> illness or other circumstances, a Member-elect has been authorized to take the
> oath of office at a place other than the House. In those circumstances, the
> Clerk of the House sees to the proper administration of the oath.
> -------------------------
>
> See http://clerk.house.gov/members/memFAQ.html#oath
>
>
> It does not even require an oath. An affirmation will do.
>
>
>
> Francis A. Miniter >> Stay informed about: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jan 03, 2007
Posts: 7
|
(Msg. 28) Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
Alan Hope wrote:
> I'm quite sure you'll be able to provide an authoritative cite for
> that understanding.
>
> But I was more concerned with your ad hoc trustworthiness. You
> appeared to be saying an oath on the Bible was to be trusted, and one
> on the Koran (by you) not. I asked whether one ought to trust a
> promise given by you on no holy book at all, and you've declined to
> answer.
What difference does it make? Did I run for office? To answer your question,
I'll lie when it suits my purposes. Don't you?
--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com >> Stay informed about: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Jan 03, 2007
Posts: 1
|
(Msg. 29) Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
On 2007-01-02 13:42:21 -0600, "*Anarcissie*" <anarcissie.DeleteThis@gmail.com> said:
>
>> *Anarcissie* wrote:
>>
>>> About half the House of Representatives belong to a party that
>>> is led by violent extremists. Why worry about this one individual?
>
> Richard Fangnail wrote:
>> That is a poor description of Democrats or Republicans or even
>> Libertarians.
>
> One party, to which about half the present House of Representatives
> belongs, has a leadership which has started a number of wars,
Would that be the Democrats?
WW II, FDR, a Democrat. He wanted us in the European war when the
country wanted us neutral.
Korean War, Truman, a Democrat,
Vietnam War, Kennedy, a Democrat and enlarged by Johnson, a career
Democrat, ended by Nixon, a Repulican. >> Stay informed about: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible |
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
External
Since: Feb 22, 2005
Posts: 48
|
(Msg. 30) Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:15 am
Post subject: Re: Taking the oath on the Koran or the Bible [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| |
|
You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Profile
Private Messages
Log in
