The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen..

On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 04:30:26 -0500, Don Sample <dsample.TakeThisOut@synapse.net>
wrote:

>It makes about as much sense as every South American country suddenly
>deciding that it wants to be part of Canada, to protect themselves from
>American Imperialism, just because Air Canada suddenly started offering
>direct flights between Toronto and Rio de Janeiro.

Except the wormholes are instantaneous. They *ARE* next to Manticore!

Location is determined by travel time, not by physical proximity.
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

In article <a9WdnUIRIOk1FfPanZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d.TakeThisOut@scnresearch.com>,
Offbreed <offbreed_106.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Don Sample wrote:
> > It makes about as much sense as every South American country suddenly
> > deciding that it wants to be part of Canada, to protect themselves from
> > American Imperialism, just because Air Canada suddenly started offering
> > direct flights between Toronto and Rio de Janeiro.
> >
> The threat posed by the Sollies is not imaginary, and there are
> considerable economic benefits to being part of Manticore, as well as
> the anti piracy patrols.

The threat posed by the US to South American countries isn't imaginary,
either, as is plain to anyone who reads a little history of the region.
The US has a history of trying to overthrow South American governments
it doesn't like, and replacing them with their own lackeys (with bad
results for everyone concerned.)

>
> It's more like Trinidad & Tobago asking to become a US protectorate if
> Chavez or his replacement becomes expansionist.

The Talbot Cluster doesn't have a single government. It's a mish-mash
of independent star nations, *all* of which suddenly decided to give up
their independence to Manticore, which despite its wealth, is quite a
bit smaller than the Cluster.

It doesn't make much sense from the Manticore side, either. Unless
they're planning to make everyone in the Cluster second class citizens,
then once they get all the Cluster representatives seated in the Commons
and the Lords, then it's the Cluster who will hold the majority, and
will have the power.

The Talbotians could have gotten the anti-piracy and anti-Solly
protection they wanted if they'd just decided to join the Manticoran
Alliance, or even negotiated something like a Manticore Junction Free
Trade Zone.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

In article <476eaed7$0$4272$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
Loren Pechtel <lorenpechtel.RemoveThis@hotmail.invalid.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 04:30:26 -0500, Don Sample <dsample.RemoveThis@synapse.net>
> wrote:
>
> >It makes about as much sense as every South American country suddenly
> >deciding that it wants to be part of Canada, to protect themselves from
> >American Imperialism, just because Air Canada suddenly started offering
> >direct flights between Toronto and Rio de Janeiro.
>
> Except the wormholes are instantaneous. They *ARE* next to Manticore!
>
> Location is determined by travel time, not by physical proximity.

Except that it then takes weeks, or even months, to get from the
wormhole terminus to most of the Cluster worlds. It takes Hexapumma
almost three weeks to get from the terminus to Spindle, which is one of
the closest Cluster worlds to the terminus. A merchant ship would take
twice as long. Even Lynx is over a day away from the terminus for a
merchant ship.

Grayson (4 days travel) is 1/5 the travel time from Manticore than what
serves as the capital of the Talbot Cluster.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

Don Sample <dsample.DeleteThis@synapse.net> wrote .
> It makes about as much sense as every South American country suddenly

> deciding that it wants to be part of Canada, to protect themselves
from
> American Imperialism, just because Air Canada suddenly started
offering
> direct flights between Toronto and Rio de Janeiro.

When this was first mentioned, I compared it with the British
protectorate treaties that were signed in the years after the Suez
canal was opened.

Kuwait, Bahrain, Aden.


Anti-pirate work too.

DW IIRC agreed.


It's not just that a national carrier opened a new route but rather
that a new route became possible for everyone so a backwater became an
important location on a major international trade route.

--
Mike D
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

In article <01c8457b$093632e0$LocalHost@default>,
"Michael R N Dolbear" <me RemoveThis @privacy.net> wrote:

> Don Sample <dsample RemoveThis @synapse.net> wrote .
> > It makes about as much sense as every South American country suddenly
>
> > deciding that it wants to be part of Canada, to protect themselves
> from
> > American Imperialism, just because Air Canada suddenly started
> offering
> > direct flights between Toronto and Rio de Janeiro.
>
> When this was first mentioned, I compared it with the British
> protectorate treaties that were signed in the years after the Suez
> canal was opened.
>
> Kuwait, Bahrain, Aden.

I don't think that any of them *asked* to become British protectorates.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

On 24 Dec 2007 00:00:53 GMT, "Michael R N Dolbear" <me.TakeThisOut@privacy.net>
wrote:

>
>Don Sample <dsample.TakeThisOut@synapse.net> wrote .
>> It makes about as much sense as every South American country suddenly
>
>> deciding that it wants to be part of Canada, to protect themselves
>from
>> American Imperialism, just because Air Canada suddenly started
>offering
>> direct flights between Toronto and Rio de Janeiro.
>
>When this was first mentioned, I compared it with the British
>protectorate treaties that were signed in the years after the Suez
>canal was opened.
>
>Kuwait, Bahrain, Aden.
>
>
>Anti-pirate work too.
>
>DW IIRC agreed.
>
>
>It's not just that a national carrier opened a new route but rather
>that a new route became possible for everyone so a backwater became an
>important location on a major international trade route.


everyone seems to stand to gain from the situation except the sollies.
biggest thing the star kingdom stands to gain imho is a hugely
expanded population base to recruit from which is going to be pretty
appealing right now.
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

Don Sample wrote:

> The threat posed by the US to South American countries isn't imaginary,
> either, as is plain to anyone who reads a little history of the region.

Perspective:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/


> The Talbotians could have gotten the anti-piracy and anti-Solly
> protection they wanted if they'd just decided to join the Manticoran
> Alliance, or even negotiated something like a Manticore Junction Free
> Trade Zone.

I think Manticore was pretty fed up with free loading slum dwellers (and
that's the local planetary rulers).
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

On 24 Dec 2007 00:00:53 GMT, an orbiting mind-control laser made
"Michael R N Dolbear" <me.RemoveThis@privacy.net> write:

>
>Don Sample <dsample.RemoveThis@synapse.net> wrote .
>> It makes about as much sense as every South American country suddenly
>> deciding that it wants to be part of Canada, to protect themselves from
>> American Imperialism, just because Air Canada suddenly started offering
>> direct flights between Toronto and Rio de Janeiro.
>
>When this was first mentioned, I compared it with the British
>protectorate treaties that were signed in the years after the Suez
>canal was opened.
>
>Kuwait, Bahrain, Aden.
>
>
>Anti-pirate work too.
>
>DW IIRC agreed.

That's pretty much how DW treats the Matapan Terminus region,
IIRC.

ref.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/Harrington/hh_reinforcements_at_t...battle_

-JPB
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:28:42 -0900, Offbreed
<offbreed_106.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Don Sample wrote:
>
>> The threat posed by the US to South American countries isn't imaginary,
>> either, as is plain to anyone who reads a little history of the region.
>
>Perspective:
>
>http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/
>
you would want to take this fellow with a grain of salt.
freedom stops famines? i wasn't aware the weather cared about the
political structure of the folks it was happening to. i also note
that he blames the british for various loss of life in india without
making any attempt to figure out how many of the dead were actually
the fault of british policy as opposed to the famine/drought itself.
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

Brian McDonald wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:28:42 -0900, Offbreed
>> http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/
>>
> you would want to take this fellow with a grain of salt.
> freedom stops famines?

Free trade does.
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 11:29:08 -0900, Offbreed
<offbreed_106.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Brian McDonald wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:28:42 -0900, Offbreed
>>> http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/
>>>
>> you would want to take this fellow with a grain of salt.
>> freedom stops famines?
>
>Free trade does.

free trade is a separate item from political freedom. the usa has
been politically free for all it's citizens for about 50 years now and
for most of that time it had NOT had anything like free trade with the
world.

there is also the problem with the earlier famines of the
transportation networks simply not being able to move grain in
sufficient quantities fast enough into the affected areas. in this
matter the british running things definitely ameliorated the problem
rather than agravating it. under the british merchants could move
their products over far larger distances with vastly more security
than they were able to under the hodgepodge of indian gov'ts that
predated british rule. i expect a lot more grain reached the famine
struck areas and at better prices than would have been the case had
the british not been there.
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

Brian McDonald wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 11:29:08 -0900, Offbreed
>> Free trade does.
>
> free trade is a separate item from political freedom.

Trade is blocked mainly by people (government agents acting alone or
with merchants) who wish to maximize their income or, if food is
blocked, to "punish" some group the leaders followers dislike.

People who have political freedom will remove trade obstacles that cause
them to be hungry. They cannot remove those obstacles without having
some sort of power, or "freedom".

I agree about the rest of your post. The situation has not deteriorated
enough to cause famine in the US.
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

On Dec 23, 2:30 am, Don Sample <dsam... DeleteThis @synapse.net> wrote:
> It makes about as much sense as every South American country suddenly
> deciding that it wants to be part of Canada, to protect themselves from
> American Imperialism, just because Air Canada suddenly started offering
> direct flights between Toronto and Rio de Janeiro.

The Turks and Caicos Islands wanted to join Canada after being miffed
at the options Britain offered for decolonialization. I think we
should have taken them up on it, because they have a good downrange to
the East, and they're much closer to the Equator than anywhere in
Canada, which lowers fuel requirements. At present, Canada is at the
same disadvantage the former Soviet Union had for a space program
(although, at least, Vancouver is a port that operates year-round, so
we have that on them).

John Savard
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