The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen..

On Tue, 25 Dec 2007 17:50:22 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
<jsavard.DeleteThis@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Dec 23, 2:30 am, Don Sample <dsam....DeleteThis@synapse.net> wrote:
>> It makes about as much sense as every South American country suddenly
>> deciding that it wants to be part of Canada, to protect themselves from
>> American Imperialism, just because Air Canada suddenly started offering
>> direct flights between Toronto and Rio de Janeiro.
>
>The Turks and Caicos Islands wanted to join Canada after being miffed
>at the options Britain offered for decolonialization. I think we
>should have taken them up on it, because they have a good downrange to
>the East, and they're much closer to the Equator than anywhere in
>Canada, which lowers fuel requirements. At present, Canada is at the
>same disadvantage the former Soviet Union had for a space program
>(although, at least, Vancouver is a port that operates year-round, so
>we have that on them).
>
>John Savard

think of the tourism money canadians would have "saved" had we
absorbed the turks and caicos islands. our biggest problem with
having a space program is mostly a considerable lack of interest in
having one. no shortage of real estate along the equator we could
lease for a launch site if we wanted.
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 14:48:24 -0500, Don Sample <dsample.DeleteThis@synapse.net>
wrote:

>In article
><ee318c3b-07f5-45bf-94c0-05c73e2529b1.DeleteThis@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsavard.DeleteThis@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Dec 23, 2:30 am, Don Sample <dsam....DeleteThis@synapse.net> wrote:
>> > It makes about as much sense as every South American country suddenly
>> > deciding that it wants to be part of Canada, to protect themselves from
>> > American Imperialism, just because Air Canada suddenly started offering
>> > direct flights between Toronto and Rio de Janeiro.
>>
>> The Turks and Caicos Islands wanted to join Canada after being miffed
>> at the options Britain offered for decolonialization. I think we
>> should have taken them up on it, because they have a good downrange to
>> the East, and they're much closer to the Equator than anywhere in
>> Canada, which lowers fuel requirements. At present, Canada is at the
>> same disadvantage the former Soviet Union had for a space program
>> (although, at least, Vancouver is a port that operates year-round, so
>> we have that on them).
>>
>> John Savard
>
>One little country wanting to join Canada makes a certain amount of
>sense. (Grenada has also made noises from time to time about becoming a
>Canadian territory.) Lynx deciding that it would be a good idea to join
>Manticore made sense. Every star nation in the cluster suddenly
>deciding to join, with an 80% approval rating in their plebiscites,
>doesn't make sense.

It made sense to DW. From the SoS book though, there were a
number of factors that led to the decision, which apparently came as a
surprise to Manticore. First, the entire cluster was looking at being
absorbed by the Solarian League in the near future. From the
statements in the books, this is not a benefit, at least for the first
few generations. It doesn't even entail "second class" status, it's
even lower. Hence, Bernardus Van Dort's efforts with the RTU to
improve their standing when the Sollies eventually took over.

In effect every government in the Cluster was looking at being put out
of existence, and their citizens (or oligarchs) were looking at a
prolonged period of suppression and exploitation afterwards. The
sudden appearance of Manticore into the equation via the wormhole
added another option for them.

Like it or not, they were going to lose their autonomy. They were
going to be taken over by someone. The only question was which was a
better option, and going with Manticore gave them the better deal,
with some choices in the matter.

Second, there's was the trade, investment, and security issues. While
some of this would have occurred regardless of whether or not they
joined Manticore, as the old advertising saying goes, "membership has
its benefits." If you're a member of the Star Kingdom, you have more
unified policies/laws, and stability, which is likely to attract
additional investments and trade, with increased benefits to you. You
also get someone with a big, modern navy who will have an obligation
to insure that you *don't* have pirates, and that your next-door
neighbors *don't* get grabby, and the 800-pound gorilla next door
isn't going to get ideas.
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

In article <47731aa6$0$16157$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
Loren Pechtel <lorenpechtel.RemoveThis@hotmail.invalid.com> wrote:


>
> They see how wealthy Manticore is and want in on it.

If people thought that way, every third world nation in on Earth would
be clamouring to join with one of the G8 countries. It doesn't work
that way.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 14:48:24 -0500, Don Sample <dsample.DeleteThis@synapse.net>
wrote:


>
>One little country wanting to join Canada makes a certain amount of
>sense. (Grenada has also made noises from time to time about becoming a
>Canadian territory.) Lynx deciding that it would be a good idea to join
>Manticore made sense. Every star nation in the cluster suddenly
>deciding to join, with an 80% approval rating in their plebiscites,
>doesn't make sense.


could be the people of the cluster are smarter than hamburger? seems
unlikely though given the iq of the voting public drops as the body of
voters grows larger. perhaps good ol corruption can explain a lot of
what's happening. the powers that be and the moneyed types supporting
them realize the consequences of frontier security taking over and are
"nudging" things in the direction they want to see.
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

Don Sample wrote:
> If people thought that way, every third world nation in on Earth would
> be clamouring to join with one of the G8 countries. It doesn't work
> that way.
>
Colonization has a poor history here (Sollies have a long history of
repressive imperialism, Manticore does not).

Also, the 3rd world countries have been the targets of the propaganda of
competing super powers (not so in the Talbot cluster, Manticore was just
some place "out there, somewhere" and not mentioned in any propaganda,
and people have been reading favorable news). There would have been more
trouble had assorted governments had the time to start moving and
propagandizing.

They might have preferred to join Haven, considering the news that
probably got there, but Manticore would do nicely.
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:17, Don Sample <dsample.TakeThisOut@synapse.net> wrote:

> Offbreed <offbreed_106.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> The threat posed by the Sollies is not imaginary, and there are
>> considerable economic benefits to being part of Manticore, as well as
>> the anti piracy patrols.
>
>The threat posed by the US to South American countries isn't imaginary,
>either, as is plain to anyone who reads a little history of the region.
>The US has a history of trying to overthrow South American governments
>it doesn't like, and replacing them with their own lackeys (with bad
>results for everyone concerned.)

Yes, but the Cluster governments are not trying to be in the position
of El Salvador, they are trying to be in the position of Hawaii. The
US State Department does not have as large a club against Hawaii, and
the 50th state does have its own Senators and Representatives to
protect it on Capitol Hill.
BIIIIG DIFFERENCE.
>>
>> It's more like Trinidad & Tobago asking to become a US protectorate if
>> Chavez or his replacement becomes expansionist.
>
>The Talbot Cluster doesn't have a single government. It's a mish-mash
>of independent star nations, *all* of which suddenly decided to give up
>their independence to Manticore, which despite its wealth, is quite a
>bit smaller than the Cluster.

Talbot Cluster systems are in the position of European countries
between Russia and France (a bit better). Some are close enough and
have been forcibly annexed into the Warsaw Pact, and these Talbot
Cluster planets are being offered NATO membership. or not.
You choose.
I know of none that that had a realistic opportunity that spurned NATO
status to willingly be Soviet client states.
>
>It doesn't make much sense from the Manticore side, either. Unless
>they're planning to make everyone in the Cluster second class citizens,
>then once they get all the Cluster representatives seated in the Commons
>and the Lords, then it's the Cluster who will hold the majority, and
>will have the power.

Yes, the Cluster will eventually have proportional representation in
the Lower House. The Upper House of Parliament OTOH ...
With the previously written 10% per election, that seating will take a
while. Presumably long enough to bring the new SEM citizens culturally
into their new Empire. Or at least it is so hoped by Her Majesty, as
she does know that she cannot even hope to conquer and occupy the
Peeps without such a population as is to be added.

>
>The Talbotians could have gotten the anti-piracy and anti-Solly
>protection they wanted if they'd just decided to join the Manticoran
>Alliance, or even negotiated something like a Manticore Junction Free
>Trade Zone.

Again, you postulate that they would have willingly gone for the
status of the Dominican Republic instead of that of Hawaii.
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 11:29:08 -0900, Offbreed wrote:

>Brian McDonald wrote:

>> you would want to take this fellow with a grain of salt.
>> freedom stops famines?
>
>Free trade does.

No, prosperity does. Free Trade *can* be a part of that. It is not
necessarily even a major part.
for Ex. Japan
Nobody in their right mind would call their protectionist policies
"free trade". Their laws and how they apply them also makes many
definitions of freedom problematic.
But they are prosperous.
Prosperous enough that they could probably buy what they needed (after
dropping the protectionist barriers now in the way) in the event of a
major drought, pestilence (that did not take out the rest of the
world) or famine hitting Japan, the prosperity would likely be enough
to carry their population through to survival on the other side.
-
John Palmer
jhn1 RemoveThis @hotmail.com (swap one for 1)
"That was the best pep talk ever", Sergeant Schlock
http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20030608.html
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 14:48, Don Sample <dsample.DeleteThis@synapse.net> wrote:


>One little country wanting to join Canada makes a certain amount of
>sense. (Grenada has also made noises from time to time about becoming a
>Canadian territory.)

At this point, the Canadien military probably could not make the
commitment to provide the protection that would be presumed to be part
and parcel of such a joining.

> Lynx deciding that it would be a good idea to join
>Manticore made sense. Every star nation in the cluster suddenly
>deciding to join, with an 80% approval rating in their plebiscites,
>doesn't make sense.

When you are a farmer, and see on your nightly newscasts the locust
swarm headed your way, it is not so unreasonable to make a lifetime
commitment to Johnson & Johnson (through the Raid products division)
for pesticide products and support. Even if it is a suprise that only
80% voted yes to the plebescite asking about terms for joining.
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 21:40, Doug Jones wrote:

>It made sense to DW. From the SoS book though, there were a
>number of factors that led to the decision, which apparently came as a
>surprise to Manticore.
snip
> as the old advertising saying goes, "membership has
>its benefits." If you're a member
NO, make that a CITIZEN
> of the Star Kingdom, you have more
>unified policies/laws, and stability, which is likely to attract
>additional investments and trade, with increased benefits to you.

Also direct SKM investments in modern education and infrastructure
because Queen Liz doesn't want more serfs to be stampeded into their
deaths in battle, but more freemen, the yeomen who brought their
skills with bow and sail to the service of the crown and made a more
effective army and navy. THe freemen also made up the economic base
that could support the taxxes to afford such an army and navy.

>You also get someone with a big, modern navy who will have an
>obligation to insure that you *don't* have pirates, and that your
>next-doorneighbors *don't* get grabby, and the 800-pound gorilla
> next door isn't going to get ideas.

Yup
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 15:23:04 +0100, J'hn1 <jhn1@comcastnet> wrote:


>Yes, but the Cluster governments are not trying to be in the position
>of El Salvador, they are trying to be in the position of Hawaii. The
>US State Department does not have as large a club against Hawaii, and
>the 50th state does have its own Senators and Representatives to
>protect it on Capitol Hill.
>BIIIIG DIFFERENCE.


the only way this analogy works is if manticore magics up enough
people to settle the cluster and reduce the natives to a single
percent or two perhaps of the total population. it isn't after all
the hawaiians who have senators and congressmen it's the damn haoles
who moved in and stole everything not nailed down along with most of
that which was.
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos shoed that J'hn1
<jhn1@comcastnet> wrote on Wed, 02 Jan 2008 15:23:04 +0100 in
alt.books.david-weber :
>
>>The Talbotians could have gotten the anti-piracy and anti-Solly
>>protection they wanted if they'd just decided to join the Manticoran
>>Alliance, or even negotiated something like a Manticore Junction Free
>>Trade Zone.
>
>Again, you postulate that they would have willingly gone for the
>status of the Dominican Republic instead of that of Hawaii.

Alliance is one thing, "Statehood" is another. OSF could just as
easily extend Protectorate to a planet government allied with the Sky
Kingdom, it would be another issue if said planet was part of the Sky
Kingdom.

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were
better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes."
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos shoed that Loren Pechtel
<lorenpechtel DeleteThis @hotmail.invalid.com> wrote on Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:53:10
-0800 in alt.books.david-weber :
>On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 04:30:26 -0500, Don Sample <dsample DeleteThis @synapse.net>
>wrote:
>
>>It makes about as much sense as every South American country suddenly
>>deciding that it wants to be part of Canada, to protect themselves from
>>American Imperialism, just because Air Canada suddenly started offering
>>direct flights between Toronto and Rio de Janeiro.
>
>Except the wormholes are instantaneous. They *ARE* next to Manticore!
>
>Location is determined by travel time, not by physical proximity.

Even if (as I recall) the Lynx terminus is a month or two travel
time from the nearest settlement, it still cuts a lot of travel time
off a journey to anywhere on the wormhole junction "railroad".

pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were
better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes."
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen.. 

On Thu, 03 Jan 2008 14:33:14 -0800, pyotr filipivich
<phamp RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote:

>I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos shoed that J'hn1
><jhn1@comcastnet> wrote on Wed, 02 Jan 2008 15:23:04 +0100 in
>alt.books.david-weber :
>>
>>>The Talbotians could have gotten the anti-piracy and anti-Solly
>>>protection they wanted if they'd just decided to join the Manticoran
>>>Alliance, or even negotiated something like a Manticore Junction Free
>>>Trade Zone.
>>
>>Again, you postulate that they would have willingly gone for the
>>status of the Dominican Republic instead of that of Hawaii.
>
> Alliance is one thing, "Statehood" is another. OSF could just as
>easily extend Protectorate to a planet government allied with the Sky
>Kingdom, it would be another issue if said planet was part of the Sky
>Kingdom.

And that is EXACTLY why the plebescite went +80%.
Some want the economic boosts that they figure will be forthcoming
(if they are correct or not is not germant to this discussion)
Some want the educational boosts that they figure will be imposed if
the SKM is not going to have an albatross forever.
Some just want the adoption into a family that is rich and powerful
enough (even if only barely so) to give the enslaving bully headed
their way pause (and it is a certainty that as unwelcome as the
antiPeep tech embargo was it was known, in principle, by the next
probably OSF targets that someboby had caused the Solly juggernaut to
veer around them instead of just running them over like is about to
happen to them.)
 >> Stay informed about: The Talbot Cluster Becoming part of Manticore makes no sen..