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Van

External


Since: Jan 15, 2007
Posts: 4



(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:53 pm
Post subject: Technology in Midkemia?
Archived from groups: alt>books>raymond-feist (more info?)

Hey gang,

Apologies if this topic has been touched on before; it's been a good many
years since I last checked this newsgroup! Not for a lack of reading the
books, mind you. I've always grabbed them the minute they appear on the
shelves. Smile

So, my question! Do you suppose the Midkemians are far from discovering
electricity and its myriad of applications? Obviously one can't say that
simply because they've reached Point A, that Point B (in this instance,
electricity) is the next obvious step. That said though, the races of
Midkemia obviously mirror those of our Earth in enough ways that one could
reasonably figure that such discoveries can't be too far away. Of course, I
do wonder: With more and more workers of magic getting around the Kingdom,
is there even enough of a scientific community - or curiosity, for that
matter - for such a discovery to even come about? Does science even have
much of a home on Midkemia? I know that Pug and other learned sorts have a
very clear understanding of astronomy and geology, as well as what a star is
made up of, but is this knowledge limited to Pug and his ilk? Do regular
human scientists exist on Midkemia, with the same understanding of the
things which power the universe?

A lot of questions there, sorry about that! I'd be more concise if I could
think how!

The reason I bring this is up is that one thing which has always excited me
is the idea that one day, Midkemia and its nations might evolve along the
same lines as our planet. That some time, in millenia to come, Midkemia
will glow with energy not from magic, but from human invention and
discovery. First steam powered ships and trains, then electricity, onto
cars and telephony, radio, television, an internet, and so forth. I imagine
that idea horrifies a lot of people; that such a beautiful world as Midkemia
would become a polluted overcrowded underforested mess like our own planet,
but I'm more just thinking of the natural path of humankind. Intelligence
is as common on Midkemia as it is and has been here, so it stands to reason
such progress would happen there as it did here.

And with the advent of such technologies, would practitioners of magic
slowly fade from the world, in the same way that - as an example - Japanese
samurai disappeared as a result of Japan's desperation to westernise. One
way of life replacing another where both cannot peacefully co-exist. Would
the humans of Midkemia - generally unhappy at the idea of magicians having
so much more power than even an entire army of humans - build weapons to
subdue or destroy magicians? *Could* such weapons overpower magic? Would a
nuclear blast be more than Pug and the Conclave could deal with? Could Pug
hold off a squadron of supersonic fighter jets and bombers as they swoop in
on Sorceror's Isle to level it?

And of course there's the elves and the dwarves. How would they react?
Would they embrace technology, or would they remain aloof and distant in
their respective hideaways?

Hmm. It's a big topic!

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aires69uk

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Since: Jan 16, 2007
Posts: 1



(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:23 am
Post subject: Re: Technology in Midkemia? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Van wrote:
> Hey gang,
>
> Apologies if this topic has been touched on before; it's been a good many
> years since I last checked this newsgroup! Not for a lack of reading the
> books, mind you. I've always grabbed them the minute they appear on the
> shelves. Smile
>
> So, my question! Do you suppose the Midkemians are far from discovering
> electricity and its myriad of applications?
> <huge snip>

I was present when REF was asked about this and basically the answer is
that while magic is available there's no real need for electricity and
applications etc - simple as that really. Anything that electricity and
applications can do is already done by magic, so where's the need.

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Raymond Feist

External


Since: Oct 17, 2006
Posts: 71



(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:10 am
Post subject: Re: Technology in Midkemia? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <1168960987.465285.53190.DeleteThis@11g2000cwr.googlegroups.com>,
aires69uk.DeleteThis@yahoo.com wrote:

> Van wrote:
> > Hey gang,
> >
> > Apologies if this topic has been touched on before; it's been a good many
> > years since I last checked this newsgroup! Not for a lack of reading the
> > books, mind you. I've always grabbed them the minute they appear on the
> > shelves. Smile
> >
> > So, my question! Do you suppose the Midkemians are far from discovering
> > electricity and its myriad of applications?
> > <huge snip>
>
> I was present when REF was asked about this and basically the answer is
> that while magic is available there's no real need for electricity and
> applications etc - simple as that really. Anything that electricity and
> applications can do is already done by magic, so where's the need.

What I said was that magic stands in lieu of technology, but not
science. In other words, all the "scientists" in Midkemia are people
who are investigating ways to manipulate "stuff" as Nakor calls it.
It's a case of finding the path of least resistance, a very human
tendency. If you need a block and tackle, you develop one, but that's
doesn't mean you're going to eventually develop high stress structural
engineering, because at a certain point, the answer is "hire a
magician," and voila! You have your whatever it is you want. As long
as magic is viable, there may be people who look at other methods of
doing things, but they won't have lots of other people joining in to
develop those technologies.

Best, R.E.F.
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Van

External


Since: Jan 15, 2007
Posts: 4



(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:20 am
Post subject: Re: Technology in Midkemia? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Raymond Feist" <raymond DeleteThis @nospam.bittersea.com> wrote in message
news:raymond-8E4042.09105916012007@johnf2.biosci.ohio-state.edu...
> In article <1168960987.465285.53190 DeleteThis @11g2000cwr.googlegroups.com>,
> aires69uk DeleteThis @yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Van wrote:
> > > Hey gang,
> > >
> > > Apologies if this topic has been touched on before; it's been a good
many
> > > years since I last checked this newsgroup! Not for a lack of reading
the
> > > books, mind you. I've always grabbed them the minute they appear on
the
> > > shelves. Smile
> > >
> > > So, my question! Do you suppose the Midkemians are far from
discovering
> > > electricity and its myriad of applications?
> > > <huge snip>
> >
> > I was present when REF was asked about this and basically the answer is
> > that while magic is available there's no real need for electricity and
> > applications etc - simple as that really. Anything that electricity and
> > applications can do is already done by magic, so where's the need.
>
> What I said was that magic stands in lieu of technology, but not
> science. In other words, all the "scientists" in Midkemia are people
> who are investigating ways to manipulate "stuff" as Nakor calls it.
> It's a case of finding the path of least resistance, a very human
> tendency. If you need a block and tackle, you develop one, but that's
> doesn't mean you're going to eventually develop high stress structural
> engineering, because at a certain point, the answer is "hire a
> magician," and voila! You have your whatever it is you want. As long
> as magic is viable, there may be people who look at other methods of
> doing things, but they won't have lots of other people joining in to
> develop those technologies.
>
> Best, R.E.F.

Ah, that makes sense! I guess another example would be the fact that we
continue to use oil so heavily, with only a relatively small amount of
investment into more environmentally friendly fuels, simply because oil is
here and it works and it's - as you said - the path of least resistance.
Why invest in friendlier forms of fuel when (depending on who you ask)
there's no immediate need? Oil does everything we need!

It could probably be pushed further and said that - just like those here on
Earth who put their whole being into finding and popularising a better fuel
source even despite the presence of oil - there might be similar humans on
Midkemia who dislike the fact that so many needs have to be cared for by
magicians. With the ratio of magicians to regular folk being presumably
quite small, I wonder if there'd be humans out there who *do* wish for
something with a broader scope. You can tie a bunch of magicians together
with cables and have them send power into a bunch of homes for lighting and
heating and so forth (ridiculously exagerated example, but I think you'll
get me), or you can invent something - be it steam power or similar - or
discover something - such as electricity, thereby opening up previously
limited potential to thousands more people.

I'm definitely trying to get more out of my idea than it's worth, but I do
like to push ideas to their outer limits. What Ray has said so far makes
plenty of sense, but I do wonder if it's more complex than that. Possibly
it is, but then... I should maybe stop caring so much about it haha.

Thanks Aires, and thanks for taking the time to respond, Ray!

- Van
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Van

External


Since: Jan 15, 2007
Posts: 4



(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:27 am
Post subject: Re: Technology in Midkemia? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Ack, it's just occured to me that my last response is fairly succinctly
answered by Ray's last paragraph! "As long as magic is viable, there may be
people who look at other methods of doing things, but they won't have lots
of other people joining in to develop those technologies."

Nevermind, then. Wink

- Van


"Van" <sfsf@!dgdg.com> wrote in message
news:45ad5dd1$0$27894$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
> "Raymond Feist" <raymond.RemoveThis@nospam.bittersea.com> wrote in message
> news:raymond-8E4042.09105916012007@johnf2.biosci.ohio-state.edu...
> > In article <1168960987.465285.53190.RemoveThis@11g2000cwr.googlegroups.com>,
> > aires69uk.RemoveThis@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > > Van wrote:
> > > > Hey gang,
> > > >
> > > > Apologies if this topic has been touched on before; it's been a good
> many
> > > > years since I last checked this newsgroup! Not for a lack of
reading
> the
> > > > books, mind you. I've always grabbed them the minute they appear on
> the
> > > > shelves. Smile
> > > >
> > > > So, my question! Do you suppose the Midkemians are far from
> discovering
> > > > electricity and its myriad of applications?
> > > > <huge snip>
> > >
> > > I was present when REF was asked about this and basically the answer
is
> > > that while magic is available there's no real need for electricity and
> > > applications etc - simple as that really. Anything that electricity
and
> > > applications can do is already done by magic, so where's the need.
> >
> > What I said was that magic stands in lieu of technology, but not
> > science. In other words, all the "scientists" in Midkemia are people
> > who are investigating ways to manipulate "stuff" as Nakor calls it.
> > It's a case of finding the path of least resistance, a very human
> > tendency. If you need a block and tackle, you develop one, but that's
> > doesn't mean you're going to eventually develop high stress structural
> > engineering, because at a certain point, the answer is "hire a
> > magician," and voila! You have your whatever it is you want. As long
> > as magic is viable, there may be people who look at other methods of
> > doing things, but they won't have lots of other people joining in to
> > develop those technologies.
> >
> > Best, R.E.F.
>
> Ah, that makes sense! I guess another example would be the fact that we
> continue to use oil so heavily, with only a relatively small amount of
> investment into more environmentally friendly fuels, simply because oil is
> here and it works and it's - as you said - the path of least resistance.
> Why invest in friendlier forms of fuel when (depending on who you ask)
> there's no immediate need? Oil does everything we need!
>
> It could probably be pushed further and said that - just like those here
on
> Earth who put their whole being into finding and popularising a better
fuel
> source even despite the presence of oil - there might be similar humans on
> Midkemia who dislike the fact that so many needs have to be cared for by
> magicians. With the ratio of magicians to regular folk being presumably
> quite small, I wonder if there'd be humans out there who *do* wish for
> something with a broader scope. You can tie a bunch of magicians together
> with cables and have them send power into a bunch of homes for lighting
and
> heating and so forth (ridiculously exagerated example, but I think you'll
> get me), or you can invent something - be it steam power or similar - or
> discover something - such as electricity, thereby opening up previously
> limited potential to thousands more people.
>
> I'm definitely trying to get more out of my idea than it's worth, but I do
> like to push ideas to their outer limits. What Ray has said so far makes
> plenty of sense, but I do wonder if it's more complex than that. Possibly
> it is, but then... I should maybe stop caring so much about it haha.
>
> Thanks Aires, and thanks for taking the time to respond, Ray!
>
> - Van
>
>
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Van

External


Since: Jan 15, 2007
Posts: 4



(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:47 am
Post subject: Re: Technology in Midkemia? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Ack take 2! Sorry to be flooding the place with message after message Wink

While talking with my girlfriend over email just now (we spend our work
hours emailing and browsing newgroups, tsk tsk!), the following occured to
me:

---------
My thinking is that there IS science in the Kingdom, but it's largely
limited to clerical orders. There aren't any universities or schools yet -
Actually, I take that back. In the latest books, some of the younger
characters have been sent to a university in Roldem (one of the small
eastern kingdoms), so there's obviously at least ONE. The recent books are
set about 100 years into the future of the events of the Rift War (maybe
more? It's been too long for me!), so while there are definitely no
universities in the Kingdom at that time, there might be some now. Either
that, or Roldem's is simply the first and only one at the moment. Either
way, it's obvious that courtesy of that fact, some level of child and young
adult education will presumably start to form in the next 100 to 200 years
just as it did on Earth. With universities and schools in place, it's only
a matter of time before naturally gifted people start to show up, and with
the benefit of tutelage and proper educations, I think real discoveries will
start to take place.
---------

So while the matter of magic fulfilling the world's more complex needs may
still be true, human curiosity and spirit will still win through.

On a last point, how about this: Humans invent machines of war, powered by
the mundane. A simpler way may have been to employ or enslave magicians.
Magicians have no doubt taken part in many wars, but the machines exist
nonetheless. Because they *complement* what the magician can do. The
machine is always there. It can break, but it's repairable, and by humans.
Magicians won't always be there when you need them. That same fact might
surely lead to humans seeking more reliable and regular and mass produceable
technologies.



"Van" <sfsf@!dgdg.com> wrote in message
news:45ad5f78$0$27946$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> Ack, it's just occured to me that my last response is fairly succinctly
> answered by Ray's last paragraph! "As long as magic is viable, there may
be
> people who look at other methods of doing things, but they won't have lots
> of other people joining in to develop those technologies."
>
> Nevermind, then. Wink
>
> - Van
>
>
> "Van" <sfsf@!dgdg.com> wrote in message
> news:45ad5dd1$0$27894$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> >
> > "Raymond Feist" <raymond.DeleteThis@nospam.bittersea.com> wrote in message
> > news:raymond-8E4042.09105916012007@johnf2.biosci.ohio-state.edu...
> > > In article <1168960987.465285.53190.DeleteThis@11g2000cwr.googlegroups.com>,
> > > aires69uk.DeleteThis@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > Van wrote:
> > > > > Hey gang,
> > > > >
> > > > > Apologies if this topic has been touched on before; it's been a
good
> > many
> > > > > years since I last checked this newsgroup! Not for a lack of
> reading
> > the
> > > > > books, mind you. I've always grabbed them the minute they appear
on
> > the
> > > > > shelves. Smile
> > > > >
> > > > > So, my question! Do you suppose the Midkemians are far from
> > discovering
> > > > > electricity and its myriad of applications?
> > > > > <huge snip>
> > > >
> > > > I was present when REF was asked about this and basically the answer
> is
> > > > that while magic is available there's no real need for electricity
and
> > > > applications etc - simple as that really. Anything that electricity
> and
> > > > applications can do is already done by magic, so where's the need.
> > >
> > > What I said was that magic stands in lieu of technology, but not
> > > science. In other words, all the "scientists" in Midkemia are people
> > > who are investigating ways to manipulate "stuff" as Nakor calls it.
> > > It's a case of finding the path of least resistance, a very human
> > > tendency. If you need a block and tackle, you develop one, but that's
> > > doesn't mean you're going to eventually develop high stress structural
> > > engineering, because at a certain point, the answer is "hire a
> > > magician," and voila! You have your whatever it is you want. As long
> > > as magic is viable, there may be people who look at other methods of
> > > doing things, but they won't have lots of other people joining in to
> > > develop those technologies.
> > >
> > > Best, R.E.F.
> >
> > Ah, that makes sense! I guess another example would be the fact that we
> > continue to use oil so heavily, with only a relatively small amount of
> > investment into more environmentally friendly fuels, simply because oil
is
> > here and it works and it's - as you said - the path of least resistance.
> > Why invest in friendlier forms of fuel when (depending on who you ask)
> > there's no immediate need? Oil does everything we need!
> >
> > It could probably be pushed further and said that - just like those here
> on
> > Earth who put their whole being into finding and popularising a better
> fuel
> > source even despite the presence of oil - there might be similar humans
on
> > Midkemia who dislike the fact that so many needs have to be cared for by
> > magicians. With the ratio of magicians to regular folk being presumably
> > quite small, I wonder if there'd be humans out there who *do* wish for
> > something with a broader scope. You can tie a bunch of magicians
together
> > with cables and have them send power into a bunch of homes for lighting
> and
> > heating and so forth (ridiculously exagerated example, but I think
you'll
> > get me), or you can invent something - be it steam power or similar - or
> > discover something - such as electricity, thereby opening up previously
> > limited potential to thousands more people.
> >
> > I'm definitely trying to get more out of my idea than it's worth, but I
do
> > like to push ideas to their outer limits. What Ray has said so far
makes
> > plenty of sense, but I do wonder if it's more complex than that.
Possibly
> > it is, but then... I should maybe stop caring so much about it haha.
> >
> > Thanks Aires, and thanks for taking the time to respond, Ray!
> >
> > - Van
> >
> >
>
>
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Brian Tillman

External


Since: Nov 02, 2006
Posts: 2



(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:24 am
Post subject: Re: Technology in Midkemia? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In news:raymond-8E4042.09105916012007@johnf2.biosci.ohio-state.edu,
Raymond Feist <raymond.RemoveThis@nospam.bittersea.com> typed:

> What I said was that magic stands in lieu of technology, but not
> science. In other words, all the "scientists" in Midkemia are people
> who are investigating ways to manipulate "stuff" as Nakor calls it.
> It's a case of finding the path of least resistance, a very human
> tendency. If you need a block and tackle, you develop one, but that's
> doesn't mean you're going to eventually develop high stress structural
> engineering, because at a certain point, the answer is "hire a
> magician," and voila! You have your whatever it is you want. As long
> as magic is viable, there may be people who look at other methods of
> doing things, but they won't have lots of other people joining in to
> develop those technologies.

That seems to me to be a good way to keep the world poor. Technology brings
wealth to the masses. Magic benefits only those who can pay already.
--
Brian
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Raymond Feist

External


Since: Oct 17, 2006
Posts: 71



(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:24 am
Post subject: Re: Technology in Midkemia? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <DRvyh.59456$wc5.19393@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>,
"Brian Tillman" <tillman.RemoveThis@go.away.spammer> wrote:

> In news:raymond-8E4042.09105916012007@johnf2.biosci.ohio-state.edu,
> Raymond Feist <raymond.RemoveThis@nospam.bittersea.com> typed:
>
> > What I said was that magic stands in lieu of technology, but not
> > science. In other words, all the "scientists" in Midkemia are people
> > who are investigating ways to manipulate "stuff" as Nakor calls it.
> > It's a case of finding the path of least resistance, a very human
> > tendency. If you need a block and tackle, you develop one, but that's
> > doesn't mean you're going to eventually develop high stress structural
> > engineering, because at a certain point, the answer is "hire a
> > magician," and voila! You have your whatever it is you want. As long
> > as magic is viable, there may be people who look at other methods of
> > doing things, but they won't have lots of other people joining in to
> > develop those technologies.
>
> That seems to me to be a good way to keep the world poor. Technology brings
> wealth to the masses. Magic benefits only those who can pay already.

Hmmm. Well, if you apply Marxian Critical Theory, yes, but from where I
sit, the answer isn't so much about power, but rather about needs vs.
solutions. In other words, a magician may choose to hire out to the
highest bidder, but he/she may also decide to do what lawyers call "pro
bono" work, to bring his/her talents to aid worthy folks irrespective of
their ability to recompense.

So, for my purposes, what I'm saying has little to do with a fiscal
model, and more to do with a effectiveness model.

See, technology in and of itself doesn't bring "wealth" to the masses.
It does, however, bring cheaper goods and services, maybe, depending on
the economic/political models of the systems in which it is deployed.

Best,R.E.F.
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