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External
Since: Mar 16, 2007
Posts: 53
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(Msg. 31) Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:30 am
Post subject: Re: Thrint Question [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>sf>written, others (more info?)
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Tim Bruening <tsbrueni RemoveThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>David DeLaney wrote:
>> Because the thrint, like some other people I could think of, were Not Very
>> Smart. Plus which, I'm fairly sure the Thrint did NOT build it themselves,
>> but controlled Tnuctipun into doing so ... so did not actually know how it
>> worked or how to alter things so it would only apply to one species. And
>> why bother? All the other species were slaves anyway... Considering
>> consequences was another thing the Thrint were Not Good At, as shown in
>> several other places in the canon.
>
>Since the Tnuctipun were the ones who were rebelling, I don't believe that the
>Thrintun would have used them to build the Super Duper Amplifier (TM).
....Believe what you like; the Tnuctipun were who built stuff for the Thrint,
and from what I know, the Thrint didn't KNOW they were rebelling until they
did so. The Thrint could not possibly have built the Amplifier themselves;
_they weren't bright enough_. The "they weren't bright enough" also points
directly to "they probably would have used the Tnuctipun to build it even if
they did have some clue that the Tnuctipun were unhappy" - Thrint mental
control was pretty absolute.
>I had thought that the Thrintun were the ones who sent the suicide order. The
super
>helmet merely amplified it so that the telepathic order would be "heard" all
over
>the galaxy. I see no reason why the Thrintun couldn't have "said" with their
minds
>"All Tnuctipun commit suicide. All other slaves take a one day nap so that we
can
>frisk them for hidden weapons or telepathy shields".
Like a lot of the questions you ask, this has two levels of answer (the same
answer as to a lot of your questions):
a) the author didn't want it to happen that way, so it didn't;
b) the characters (the Thrint in this case) didn't think of doing that, because
the author didn't let them.
It's not like we're talking about real aliens here, you know - these are
concepts entirely of Larry Niven's creation, and they dance to his tune.
"_I_ can think of it and it makes sense to me!" makes no nevermind...
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd RemoveThis @vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K. |
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External
Since: Nov 18, 2005
Posts: 13
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(Msg. 32) Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:37 am
Post subject: Re: Thrint Question [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>sf>written, others (more info?)
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On Jan 6, 7:36 pm, Aidan Karley <name1_na....RemoveThis@email.provider.invalid>
wrote:
> How many billions of Thrint were there?
That's a good question. I'm reading a book with feudalism in it right
now (The Family Trade, I meant to skim but couldn't stop) and the
Thrint had a pretty feudal setup. It seems to me that there might only
be one clan of Thrint per inhabited world, with the rest of the
population slaves of other species. Or one clan per continent, maybe. |
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External
Since: Dec 29, 2007
Posts: 22
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(Msg. 33) Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:40 am
Post subject: Re: Thrint Question [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Jan 6, 3:29 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru... RemoveThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> To put down the Tnuctipun uprising, the Thrint elders built a super
> duper amplifier helmet and used it to order everyone in the galaxy to
> commit suicide, including themselves. Why didn't the Thrint apply the
> suicide order only to the Tnuctipun? ("All Tnuctipun commit suicide at
> once. All other slaves take a one day nap").
The Tnuctipun are vital to the Thrint economy. If they die,
the Thrint will waste away. For a long time, the Thrint had
no enemies and they lost the knack for self preservation. >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question |
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External
Since: Aug 21, 2006
Posts: 36
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(Msg. 34) Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Thrint Question [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>sf>written, others (more info?)
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Erik Max Francis wrote:
> Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> > I got the impression in "World of P'Tavvs" that even the Thrintun
> > were ordered to commit suicide!
>
> Then you read really poorly.
That seems to be a Bruening trait. He gets obsessed about works, but
not to the point of actually paying any attention to them.
Brian
--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question |
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External
Since: Aug 21, 2006
Posts: 36
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(Msg. 35) Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Thrint Question [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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David DeLaney wrote:
> Tim Bruening <tsbrueni DeleteThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> > the galaxy. I see no reason why the Thrintun couldn't have "said"
> > with their minds "All Tnuctipun commit suicide. All other slaves
> > take a one day nap so that we can frisk them for hidden weapons or
> > telepathy shields".
>
> Like a lot of the questions you ask, this has two levels of answer
> (the same answer as to a lot of your questions):
> a) the author didn't want it to happen that way, so it didn't;
> b) the characters (the Thrint in this case) didn't think of doing
> that, because the author didn't let them.
c) By that time, the rebellion was well underway, with the Thrint
unsure of which were involved. Also, the affrontery of those slaves!
They deserve to to die.
Brian
--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question |
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External
Since: Sep 10, 2007
Posts: 29
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(Msg. 36) Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:07 am
Post subject: Re: Thrint Question [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <4781E096.B0902A0D DeleteThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, Tim Bruening wrote:
> Inhabitants of the Wunderland ship: The Pak?
>
It's not a "canon" story, but it's well accepted. And short of
getting up and looking on the book shelves, I think that it's called
"The Asteroid Queen". I commend it to you.
--
Aidan Karley,
Written at Mon, 07 Jan 2008 23:34 GMT, but posted later.
"Please turn your monitors off when you leave the building. Not only
does it save power, but the flickering of the monitors annoys the
pterosaur." >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question |
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External
Since: Sep 10, 2007
Posts: 29
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(Msg. 37) Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:07 am
Post subject: Re: Thrint Question [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <Xns9A1DC6490EB02genewardsmithsbcglob DeleteThis @207.115.33.102>, Gene Ward
Smith wrote:
> > In human intelligence testing, IQ tests are related to a Gaussian
> > distribution of mean 100 and standard deviation 15.
>
> No they aren't, unless you mean a theoretical postulation.
>
That's what I mean by the "related to" qualifier. A particular test
procedure produces a result ; a battery of tests are applied to either a
suitably large population, or to a smaller sample population who are also
tested by other already-established methods ; from the results of this, the
relation between the test result and the IQ scale is established.
Considering that there still isn't a generally accepted definition
of "intelligence", that's a perfectly reasonable way to compare the results
of different tests which may well not be measuring the same thing.
--
Aidan Karley,
Written at Mon, 07 Jan 2008 23:27 GMT, but posted later.
"Please turn your monitors off when you leave the building. Not only does
it save power, but the flickering of the monitors annoys the pterosaur." >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question |
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External
Since: Sep 10, 2007
Posts: 29
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(Msg. 38) Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:07 am
Post subject: Re: Thrint Question [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>sf>written, others (more info?)
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In article
<ad6caa16-6a76-4d69-8923-b8a24eb01ea7 DeleteThis @t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
Louann_m DeleteThis @yahoo.com wrote:
> It seems to me that there might only
> be one clan of Thrint per inhabited world, with the rest of the
> population slaves of other species. Or one clan per continent, maybe.
>
That's the way that Kzanol remembers his home life. Also the way
the (un-named?) Thrint on the Asteroid Queen has a harem+extended
family set up on his ship.
That would translate to dozens to a few hundred Thrint per
world/ system. It's not clear if Thrint would tolerate other Thrint in
the same system, but the number of systems with multiple terraformable
planets isn't going to be big.
--
Aidan Karley,
Written at Mon, 07 Jan 2008 23:36 GMT, but posted later.
"Please turn your monitors off when you leave the building. Not only
does it save power, but the flickering of the monitors annoys the
pterosaur." >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question |
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External
Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 812
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(Msg. 39) Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:29 am
Post subject: Re: Thrint Question [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>sf>written, others (more info?)
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norrin wrote:
> On Jan 6, 3:29 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru... DeleteThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> > To put down the Tnuctipun uprising, the Thrint elders built a super
> > duper amplifier helmet and used it to order everyone in the galaxy to
> > commit suicide, including themselves. Why didn't the Thrint apply the
> > suicide order only to the Tnuctipun? ("All Tnuctipun commit suicide at
> > once. All other slaves take a one day nap").
>
> The Tnuctipun are vital to the Thrint economy. If they die,
> the Thrint will waste away. For a long time, the Thrint had
> no enemies and they lost the knack for self preservation.
But if only the Tnuctipun died, couldn't the other slaves tide the Thrint
over until the Thrint can find new slaves as smart as the Tnuctipun? >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question |
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External
Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 812
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(Msg. 40) Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:36 am
Post subject: Re: Thrint Question [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Erik Max Francis wrote:
> Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> > I got the impression in "World of P'Tavvs" that even the Thrintun were ordered to commit
> > suicide!
>
> Then you read really poorly.
I remember two versions: One in which the Thrint committed suicide also, and another in which
they survived Suicide Night but couldn't live without their slaves. >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question |
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External
Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 812
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(Msg. 41) Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:26 am
Post subject: Re: Thrint Question [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Sea Wasp wrote:
> Tim Bruening wrote:
> > To put down the Tnuctipun uprising, the Thrint elders built a super
> > duper amplifier helmet and used it to order everyone in the galaxy to
> > commit suicide, including themselves. Why didn't the Thrint apply the
> > suicide order only to the Tnuctipun? ("All Tnuctipun commit suicide at
> > once. All other slaves take a one day nap").
>
> The Thrintun were powerful.
>
> They were also only slightly brighter than the average ape. In other
> words, dumb as posts. With the Power, they didn't HAVE to be very bright.
I defy any average (non-human) ape to operate a space ship! >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question |
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External
Since: Apr 10, 2006
Posts: 8
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(Msg. 42) Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:39 am
Post subject: Re: Thrint Question [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>larry-niven (more info?)
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On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 06:30:53 -0500, dbd DeleteThis @gatekeeper.vic.com (David
DeLaney) wrote:
>
>Like a lot of the questions you ask, this has two levels of answer (the same
>answer as to a lot of your questions):
>a) the author didn't want it to happen that way, so it didn't;
>b) the characters (the Thrint in this case) didn't think of doing that, because
> the author didn't let them.
>
I think you've hit the nail on the head.
You and I have both expressed reservations about TB's postings to this
group, but in his defence, I have to say that his question is a fair
one, and "the Thrint were thick" doesn't wash as an answer - there are
hints in the KS stories that they're not _that_ dense.
I'd add a point c) to your list: the author throws out a lot of ideas
in his stories, but doesn't care much whether or not they stand up to
any scrunity. It's one of his weaknesses. >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question |
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External
Since: Jan 04, 2008
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 43) Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:16 am
Post subject: Re: Thrint Question [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>sf>written, others (more info?)
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Aidan Karley <name1_name2 DeleteThis @email.provider.invalid> wrote in
news:VA.000014ca.1053abfe@email.provider.invalid:
>> > In human intelligence testing, IQ tests are related to a
>> > Gaussian
>> > distribution of mean 100 and standard deviation 15.
>>
>> No they aren't, unless you mean a theoretical postulation.
>>
> That's what I mean by the "related to" qualifier. A particular
> test
> procedure produces a result ; a battery of tests are applied to either
> a suitably large population, or to a smaller sample population who are
> also tested by other already-established methods ; from the results of
> this, the relation between the test result and the IQ scale is
> established.
>
None of this leads to a Gaussian distribution. >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question |
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External
Since: Feb 15, 2005
Posts: 7
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(Msg. 44) Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:42 am
Post subject: Re: Thrint Question [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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["Followup-To:" header set to rec.arts.sf.written.]
On 2008-01-07, Tim Bruening <tsbrueni.DeleteThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
>
> Sea Wasp wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> > To put down the Tnuctipun uprising, the Thrint elders built a super
>> > duper amplifier helmet and used it to order everyone in the galaxy to
>> > commit suicide, including themselves. Why didn't the Thrint apply the
>> > suicide order only to the Tnuctipun? ("All Tnuctipun commit suicide at
>> > once. All other slaves take a one day nap").
>>
>> The Thrintun were powerful.
>>
>> They were also only slightly brighter than the average ape. In other
>> words, dumb as posts. With the Power, they didn't HAVE to be very bright.
>
> I defy any ape to operate a space ship!
You do know that humans are apes, right?
--
Aaron Denney
-><- >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question |
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External
Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 812
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(Msg. 45) Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:42 am
Post subject: Re: Thrint Question [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Aaron Denney wrote:
> ["Followup-To:" header set to rec.arts.sf.written.]
> On 2008-01-07, Tim Bruening <tsbrueni DeleteThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Sea Wasp wrote:
> >
> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >> > To put down the Tnuctipun uprising, the Thrint elders built a super
> >> > duper amplifier helmet and used it to order everyone in the galaxy to
> >> > commit suicide, including themselves. Why didn't the Thrint apply the
> >> > suicide order only to the Tnuctipun? ("All Tnuctipun commit suicide at
> >> > once. All other slaves take a one day nap").
> >>
> >> The Thrintun were powerful.
> >>
> >> They were also only slightly brighter than the average ape. In other
> >> words, dumb as posts. With the Power, they didn't HAVE to be very bright.
> >
> > I defy any ape to operate a space ship!
>
> You do know that humans are apes, right?
Humans are related to apes, but aren't apes. >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question |
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