Tolkien Quoted in Babylon 5

"Jamie Armstrong" <J.D.Armstrong.TakeThisOut@durham.ac.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:flb4gs$en8$1@heffalump.dur.ac.uk...

[snip]

> JMS is a huge Tolkien fan, and there are a load of parallels and nods to
> Tolkien throughout the whole series. I love B5 - I just wish that Warners
> hadn't screwed up series 5: it's definitely the weakest series because JMS
> had to condense everything into season 4 to tie up all the loose ends
> after it appeared that the 5th season wouldn't go ahead. It made much of
> series 5 one big and very drawn out ending (just like RotK). The last
> episode always gets me teary though
>
> There's a new B5 DVD (The Lost Tales) which I finally got to see this
> Christmas: it's not brilliant, but it's not terrible (well, not 'Legend of
> the Rangers' terrible). There is however a very sad moment when Lockley
> tells Sheridan that Steven and G'Kar have travelled together beyond the
> Rim: Richard Briggs and Andreas Katsulas both died in recent years. The
> disc also has a couple of testimonials for the two actors.

I'll buy the DVD boxes for the three later seasons the moment they become
available here. Great stuff!

Öjevind
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"Öjevind Lång" <bredband.net.DeleteThis@ojevind.lang> wrote in message
news:5tshirF1esmc9U1@mid.individual.net...

> I've spent much of the holiday seson watching Babylon 5 on DVD.

How nice. Rewatching or new watching? I've considered doing that for series
like 'The Simpsons' or 'Star Trek: The Next Generation', but usually give up
after one of two series.

> In Episode 3 of the Second Season, "The Geometry of Shadows", the
> technomage Elric says: "There is an old saying: 'Do not try the patience
> of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger'." Of course, that is a
> direct adaption of the proverb quoted by Gildor Inglorion in "Three is
> Company": "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle
> and quick to anger". Perhaps this isn't news to others here, but it was to
> me. It gave me a kick, actually.

I'm sure there are more influences than that. Shadows and stuff.

Christopher
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Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
> "Öjevind Lång" <bredband.net RemoveThis @ojevind.lang> wrote in message
> news:5tshirF1esmc9U1@mid.individual.net...
>
>> I've spent much of the holiday seson watching Babylon 5 on DVD.
>
> How nice. Rewatching or new watching? I've considered doing that for series
> like 'The Simpsons' or 'Star Trek: The Next Generation', but usually give up
> after one of two series.
>
>> In Episode 3 of the Second Season, "The Geometry of Shadows", the
>> technomage Elric says: "There is an old saying: 'Do not try the patience
>> of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger'." Of course, that is a
>> direct adaption of the proverb quoted by Gildor Inglorion in "Three is
>> Company": "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle
>> and quick to anger". Perhaps this isn't news to others here, but it was to
>> me. It gave me a kick, actually.
>
> I'm sure there are more influences than that. Shadows and stuff.

It should be noted, however, that the /main/ story influences on
"Babylon 5" are the Lensmen series by E. E. "Doc" Smith, and "The
Demolished Man" by Alfred Bester. (In both the real world and the
fictional world, the B5 character was named for the novelist.) There are
others, including "The Lady's Not for Burning" by Christopher Fry. Note,
too, that most of the stories that influenced "Babylon 5" are treated in
reverse -- what if it started the same way, and then went horribly wrong?

--
John W. Kennedy
"But now is a new thing which is very old--
that the rich make themselves richer and not poorer,
which is the true Gospel, for the poor's sake."
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
 >> Stay informed about: Tolkien Quoted in Babylon 5 

Öjevind Lång kirjoitti:
> I've spent much of the holiday seson watching Babylon 5 on DVD. In Episode 3
> of the Second Season, "The Geometry of Shadows", the technomage Elric says:
> "There is an old saying: 'Do not try the patience of wizards, for they are
> subtle and quick to anger'." Of course, that is a direct adaption of the
> proverb quoted by Gildor Inglorion in "Three is Company": "Do not meddle in
> the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger". Perhaps
> this isn't news to others here, but it was to me. It gave me a kick,
> actually. (The quote is mentioned in the Wikipedia article about
> technomages, but attritbuted to Gandalf. I'll go change that now.)

Did you spot the one where Marcus goes on about
the Rangers, how they are the ones who stand on
the bridge and say "thou shall not pass", or
something like that?

Of course the logical explanation is that the
future society is deeply influenced by Tolkien
and his writings, which makes perfect sense, but
it does not explain the names like Lorien and
Za'ha-dum. The only explanation for those is that
Tolkien himself was somehow influenced by the
Vorlons while he was writing his mythology, who
fed him some of his purest ideas, which also
makes a perfect sense.

Morgil
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"Morgil" <morestelx DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

> The only explanation for those is that
> Tolkien himself was somehow influenced by the
> Vorlons while he was writing his mythology, who
> fed him some of his purest ideas, which also
> makes a perfect sense.

ROTFL!

Imagine the Vorlons in the Notion Club Papers.

Christopher
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Morgil wrote:
> Öjevind Lång kirjoitti:
>> I've spent much of the holiday seson watching Babylon 5 on DVD. In
>> Episode 3 of the Second Season, "The Geometry of Shadows", the
>> technomage Elric says: "There is an old saying: 'Do not try the
>> patience of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger'." Of
>> course, that is a direct adaption of the proverb quoted by Gildor
>> Inglorion in "Three is Company": "Do not meddle in the affairs of
>> Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger". Perhaps this isn't
>> news to others here, but it was to me. It gave me a kick, actually.
>> (The quote is mentioned in the Wikipedia article about technomages,
>> but attritbuted to Gandalf. I'll go change that now.)
>
> Did you spot the one where Marcus goes on about
> the Rangers, how they are the ones who stand on
> the bridge and say "thou shall not pass", or
> something like that?
>
"I am a Ranger! We walk in the dark places no others will enter. We
stand on the bridge, and no-one may pass. We live for the One, we die
for the One!"
If he's on season 2 then he ain't got that far yet (S3, Ep. 19: Grey 17
is missing)!

> Of course the logical explanation is that the
> future society is deeply influenced by Tolkien
> and his writings, which makes perfect sense, but
> it does not explain the names like Lorien and
> Za'ha-dum. The only explanation for those is that
> Tolkien himself was somehow influenced by the
> Vorlons while he was writing his mythology, who
> fed him some of his purest ideas, which also
> makes a perfect sense.
>
Like duh!!



Jamie
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Jamie Armstrong wrote:
> Morgil wrote:
>>
>> Did you spot the one where Marcus goes on about
>> the Rangers, how they are the ones who stand on
>> the bridge and say "thou shall not pass", or
>> something like that?
>>
> "I am a Ranger! We walk in the dark places no others will enter. We
> stand on the bridge, and no-one may pass. We live for the One, we die
> for the One!"
> If he's on season 2 then he ain't got that far yet (S3, Ep. 19: Grey 17
> is missing)!

But there's Strazynski's insistent and repeated statement that they're
based on the TEXAS Rangers, the TEXAS Rangers. Because the Texas
Rangers wear grey cloaks and green stones to clasp them, right? Right!
We believe him!

Michelle
Flutist
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"?jevind L?ng" <bredband.net RemoveThis @ojevind.lang> wrote:
> "Jamie Armstrong" <J.D.Armstrong RemoveThis @durham.ac.uk> skrev i meddelandet
> news:flb4gs$en8$1@heffalump.dur.ac.uk...

>> JMS is a huge Tolkien fan, and there are a load of parallels and nods to
>> Tolkien throughout the whole series.

Including some, aeh, misspelt names

And the WWW will give you information on each and every one of them.

>> There's a new B5 DVD (The Lost Tales) which I finally got to see this
>> Christmas: it's not brilliant, but it's not terrible

Would you recommend it? Any interesting in it? Could you give a short
summary?

> I'll buy the DVD boxes for the three later seasons the moment they become
> available here.

Bought mine quite some time ago from Amazon -- I'd be surprised if they
couldn't ship you at least the original non-dubbed version.

> Great stuff!

Yes, definitely.

- Dirk
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John W. Kennedy <jwkenne RemoveThis @attglobal.net> wrote:
> It should be noted, however, that the /main/ story influences on
> "Babylon 5" are the Lensmen series by E. E. "Doc" Smith, and "The
> Demolished Man" by Alfred Bester. (In both the real world and the
> fictional world, the B5 character was named for the novelist.) There are
> others, including "The Lady's Not for Burning" by Christopher Fry. Note,
> too, that most of the stories that influenced "Babylon 5" are treated in
> reverse -- what if it started the same way, and then went horribly wrong?

But that doesn't apply to the Lensmen influence, or does it? The war
between the, aeh, Arisians and Eddorians comes to pretty the same
conclusion (though in B5 it's done *very* clumsily, and was a major
disappointent for me). So in what way did that go wrong?

- Dirk
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Dirk Thierbach wrote:
> "?jevind L?ng" <bredband.net.TakeThisOut@ojevind.lang> wrote:
>> "Jamie Armstrong" <J.D.Armstrong.TakeThisOut@durham.ac.uk> skrev i meddelandet
>> news:flb4gs$en8$1@heffalump.dur.ac.uk...
>
>>> There's a new B5 DVD (The Lost Tales) which I finally got to see this
>>> Christmas: it's not brilliant, but it's not terrible
>
> Would you recommend it? Any interesting in it? Could you give a short
> summary?
>
Ok, firstly, I love B5, and it would take something of George Lucus or
Wachowski Brothers proportions to destroy that. So I would watch these
and any subsequent DVDs purely because it's B5.

The DVD is split into two episodes set in 2271. The first features (now)
Colonel Lockley, still commanding B5 and dealing with a man who claims
to be possessed by the devil. She calls in a catholic priest to assess
whether he's telling the truth or not (the chap has some... unusual
abilities). Together they have to work out whether he is being
possessed, and what to do about it.

The second features Sheridan, who is travelling from Minbar to B5 and
picking up the 3rd in line to the Centauri throne (Dius Ventari) en
route. On the way he gets a visitation from Galen (the techno-mage from
'A Call to Arms' and 'Crusade', and always good fun) who shows him a
vision of New York in the future being destroyed by an alien attack.
Galen informs Sheridan that this is a possible future, and that it could
happen if Ventari comes to the throne, as he's responsible for the
attack. The only way to avert this for certain is to kill the young
Ventari now. Sheridan has to decide whether to act or not.

It becomes apparent at the end of the second episode that the two
storylines took place in the same time-frame, although there are no
links between them. Both conclude with suitably Babylon 5 endings.

Is it worth watching them? Well, for the sake of completeness I'd say
yes, but as individual stories I'd say no: they don't add anything to
the original series, and it's too early to know if they are going form
part of a larger story arc (there are further episodes planned: see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_5:_The_Lost_Tales). It's also sad
when various characters get a name-check, but only to establish why they
can't be present.

That said, as I said before I did like the way Steven and G'Kar were
mentioned as having travelled beyond the Rim, and there are two
testimonials to the actors on the disc which are very nice.

Hope that helps!

Jamie
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On Dec 31 2007, 3:41 pm, Morgil <morest... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> Öjevind Lång kirjoitti:
> > I've spent much of the holiday seson watching Babylon 5 on DVD.

I love B5; I was first introduced to it during college, and I've
followed it ever since. However, a lack of cable over the following
years has meant that I missed out on much of what happened after the
end of the main series. (From what I've heard, that's not necessarily
a bad thing.) There are a lot of echoes of Tolkien there (not all
quite as direct as the technomage's quote).

> ...it does not explain the names like Lorien and
> Za'ha-dum. The only explanation for those is that
> Tolkien himself was somehow influenced by the
> Vorlons while he was writing his mythology, who
> fed him some of his purest ideas, which also
> makes a perfect sense.

I refer you to the following old discussion, and to the response to
point #9 in particular:

Message-ID: <5pcnvl$2lg@sashimi.wwa.com>
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/2feffb7646923b11

Steuard "Hoping Google Groups Works" Jensen
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On Dec 31 2007, 7:38 pm, "John W. Kennedy" <jwke... DeleteThis @attglobal.net>
wrote:
> It should be noted, however, that the /main/ story influences on
> "Babylon 5" are the Lensmen series by E. E. "Doc" Smith, and "The
> Demolished Man" by Alfred Bester.

So tell me: I know virtually nothing about the Lensmen series that I
didn't learn from references in a bad Heinlein novel. Should I read
the originals at this point, or are there better ways to spend my
time?

Steuard Jensen

ObTolkien: I have no clear memory of how much sci-fi Tolkien read,
especially "pulp" stories (is that at all an accurate take on
Lensmen?). Does anyone know if he expressed opinions about the big
names in sci-fi of his day?
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"Michelle J. Haines" <mhaines.RemoveThis@nanc.com> wrote in message
news:32cd9$477a7c88$4127760a$12190@hpnx.com...
> Jamie Armstrong wrote:
>> Morgil wrote:
>>>
>>> Did you spot the one where Marcus goes on about
>>> the Rangers, how they are the ones who stand on
>>> the bridge and say "thou shall not pass", or
>>> something like that?
>>>
>> "I am a Ranger! We walk in the dark places no others will enter. We stand
>> on the bridge, and no-one may pass. We live for the One, we die for the
>> One!"
>> If he's on season 2 then he ain't got that far yet (S3, Ep. 19: Grey 17
>> is missing)!
>
> But there's Strazynski's insistent and repeated statement that they're
> based on the TEXAS Rangers, the TEXAS Rangers. Because the Texas Rangers
> wear grey cloaks and green stones to clasp them, right? Right! We believe
> him!

LOL! Though you have to wonder whether this was a mistake in communication.
Maybe the clothing department thought, "Rangers? Let's do the grey cloaks
and green stone thing from Tolkien", and it somehow slipped through.

Christopher
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