Villains turned X-Men: What's the problem?

badbad wrote:
> Billy Bissette wrote:
>> badbad wrote:
>>> The X-writers haven't really explained why Lady Mastermind or
>>> Omega Sentinel were experimented upon and they haven't dug into
>>> Lady Mastermind's reasons for switching sides so she is rather
>>> one dimensional.
>>
>> Lady Mastermind's turns were explained, and it was a pretty
>> simple explanation. She was simply out for herself.
>>
>> She joined with the X-Men because it was the best thing for her at
>> the time. They saved her. Then the Children of the Vault formed
>> an imminent threat. Then Pandemic. She was better off with them
>> than on her own or getting hunted down.
>>
>> She joined the Marauders because she saw them as a better path.
>> She said as much. Even when she was with the X-Men, she pretty
>> much described herself as being along for the ride and for
>> personal betterment.
>
> The idea of better off seemed a little cavalier by the writer. If
> she wanted to be better off she would have joined Stark and the
> Initiative. They at least have a paycheck and health insurance.
> Just saying, you know?

Lady Mastermind doesn't seem like a good goosestepper. For her, that
would be the worst thing she could do. Stark wouldn't likely touch her
either.

> Her statement was really a throwaway line. The writer could then
> use her to plot a way to take over Omega Sentinel in a sneaky
> manner. Lady Mastermind's power of illusion would also allow
> Mystique and company to infiltrate the X-Men.
>
> I hoped a more thought-out explanation from the writer because that
> reason seems a little thin. I would even accept that Mr Sinister
> actually bribed her to join his group as a better motivation.

It was 100% in keeping with her character. It was a bribe of sorts.
Sinister's team certainly seemed a better alternative to the falling
apart Rogue's X-Men. She and Rogue butted heads almost constantly.

> The X-Men probably have a greater ability to help her find out who
> locked her up in the hospital. Joining Mr Sinister just makes her
> more of a target because she betrays the people who rescued her
> and throws in with criminals. Criminals who may have locked her
> in the hospital in the first place. She doesn't even know for sure.

The experiments at the Fordyce Clinic were explained. In X-MEN #194,
they track down one of the scientists and discover what was going on.
It was part of Pandemic's research into Strain-88. Regan only joined
the X-Men to get revenge, and revenge was had, then she was mind-
controlled by the Mummudrai, so now it's back to business as usual.
Plus, it was the X-Men (Storm's team) that put her in a hospital in
the first place, which led to her being experimented on.

Michael Lehmeier wrote:
> The Black Guardian wrote:
>> Michael Lehmeier wrote:
>>> Nathan P. Mahney wrote:
>>>> The main problem I have with this is that the more villains you
>>>> have joining the X-Men, the less good villains you have working
>>>> against them. The X-Men do have a pretty decent rogues gallery,
>>>> but it doesn't have enough depth to survive something like that.
>>>
>>> Well, there would be a rather simple solution to that: Write
>>> better villains.
>>> Of course the writers seem to have a problem with that...
>>
>> That's because it's easier said than done.
>
> Sometimes I wonder if it is even wanted.
> Interesting villains seem to require certain, well, requirements,
> that mainstream writers (and editors) seem to try to avoid.

>> Furthermore, the X-Men are such strongly polarized idealists and
>> they've typically been more of a family than a team that I think
>> being too accepting of villains pollutes them.
>
> And this I totally disagree with.
> I think the total opposite is the case.

It's like this: either embrace the mission statement/dream or they
don't fit. Every member that doesn't either pollutes the cause or
dilutes the purpose.

>> Juggernaut, I always found to be an undimensional villain. His
>> becoming an X-Man was an improvement in his characterization,
>> even if I'm not certain he actually made a good X-Man.
>
> Not all X-Men have to be "good" X-Men.

Well, I didn't mean "good" as in good behaviour. I was starting to
enjoy him in EXCALIBUR.

>> Marrow was a mass-murderer of innocent humans. She never really
>> embraced the X-Men's mission statement.
>
> Although I agree with you, I enjoyed what little I have read of
> her stay at the X-Men. True, she never embraced the X-Men's
> mission, but I don't think she had to.
> She was under control enough to be able to stay, and it was
> certainly better to keep her around than to let her loose alone in
> the world.

She wasn't under that much control... until she briefly became a
cheerleader.

>> There hasn't been a story with Emma that I've enjoyed since the
>> original Hellions died. She used to be a great villainess, and
>> now I find her a wishy-washy "hero." This was a woman who didn't
>> think twice about torturing people and killing them, treated
>> mutant kids as mere weapons to be used in her rise to greatness,
>> and now she's sobbing about a few of them dying.
>
> She bred and used the Hellions as weapons, yes, but that doesn't
> contradict that she broke when they died.

It may not contradict that she broke when they died, but the fact that
she broke contradicted everything the character had that I enjoyed.

> At that time I feared the same thing, that Emma would become a
> crying philantropist, but thankfully that part of her personality
> vanished soon enough and she returned to being a bitch.
> Which doesn't have to mean she has forgotten the Hellions or
> stopped trying to make it better.

That part of her really didn't vanish. She's still doing it. Now she's
just got more to cry about, and it's made her even more disgusting as
a character, imo. Plus, she used to be one of the strongest, most self-
assured female characters in the books, and now she's horribly self-
conscious to the point she has self-esteem issues. She's really become
softer than Jean ever was.

> BTW, that's the kind of villain group I really really miss in the
> X-books and most of mainstream superhero comics:
> A team of villains that truly cares for each other!
> This is one of "requirements the writers try to avoid" that I wrote
> above. It is just not done and not even desired. I mean, just look
> at the antagonists in pretty much every war movie!

Agreed here. Had fundamental mistakes not been made with them, the Neo
could have served in this capacity very well. But oh well...