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Since: Feb 11, 2004
Posts: 59
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:46 pm
Post subject: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the music (plan)?
Archived from groups: rec>arts>books>tolkien (more info?)
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One can think the Elves were either mad or proud beyond belief to
attack Morgoth under Feanor's charge. They never had a chance. All
they really did is draw Morgoth's attention to the people of that
region and cause a lot of misery when the Battle of Tears lead to the
whole region being over run.
But when you look at the story of the Music, it was Melekor who added
a discordant theme that was used by Eru to further the music - not
ruin it. That leaves me to think that Melekor had a role to play and
that the attack of the Elves was more than mad, it was also unwise.
Or was their attack just another theme of the music?
If they could not defeat Morgoth because the music was formed with him
as a discordant note but still part of the music, and their own
efforts just another responding theme - then where was the free will
and what was the moral value of the attack? If they could change the
music, the effort must have been too much for them to accomplish. Or
was it?
With that thought I can now see the Valar with some envy of Morgoth.
What erotic games was he playing in Middle Earth with Orcs and Balrogs
that they could only watch from afar? Why did they slip off to Middle
earth when they could? What were they up to? Of course Tolkien would
never report that aspect of it or not in a manner that we would see as
explicit. But it was not good against evil - just one theme against
another.
All this talk about what morals are absolute and who will support such
ancient beliefs. When it was not really that way at all. Or was it?
What do you think? |
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Since: Jan 31, 2004
Posts: 651
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the music (plan)? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Since: Apr 08, 2004
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the music (plan)? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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I think it's a grave mistake to think that, according to either
Christian theology or Tolkien's philosophy, evil is somehow less evil
because it is accounted for in God's (Eru's) plan. Tolkien was not a
postmodern, and it was not "just one theme against another".
I also think it is a mistake to think that the Music of the Ainur meant
that everything that occurred in the world was preordained, and that any
attempt to exert free will was therefore an attempt to deny Eru's will.
There were other reasons why Feanor and the Noldor's war on Morgoth was
both hopeless and wrong, but I don't think the one you give was among
them.
Of course, that's just what I think.
--
Bruce Tucker
disintegration @ mindspring.com >> Stay informed about: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the m.. |
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Since: Jul 23, 2004
Posts: 46
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the music (plan)? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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>One can think the Elves were either mad or proud beyond belief to
>attack Morgoth under Feanor's charge.
Well, there are plenty of examples in history of a population foloowing a mad
but charismatic leader to their collective doom.
> They never had a chance.
From some of the descriptions they came pretty darn close. Without the
betrayal in the Fifth Battle they might have won.
All
>they really did is draw Morgoth's attention to the people of that
>region and cause a lot of misery when the Battle of Tears lead to the
>whole region being over run.
>But when you look at the story of the Music, it was Melekor who added
>a discordant theme that was used by Eru to further the music - not
>ruin it. That leaves me to think that Melekor had a role to play and
>that the attack of the Elves was more than mad, it was also unwise.
>Or was their attack just another theme of the music?
I'm not sure if it was an essay or letter, but Tolkien wrote that the Noldor
were actually the perfect tool at the perfect time. They essentially kept
Morgoth bottled up dissipating his power in various wars so that by the time he
did defeat the Noldor and the Valinorean army arrived Morgoth's personal power
was almost all gone.
Had the Valar gone after Morgoth with his power intact, the damage to
middle-earth could have been catastrophic.
<snip>
Russ<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the m.. |
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Since: Jul 23, 2004
Posts: 46
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the music (plan)? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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>I also think it is a mistake to think that the Music of the Ainur meant
>that everything that occurred in the world was preordained, and that any
>attempt to exert free will was therefore an attempt to deny Eru's will.
>There were other reasons why Feanor and the Noldor's war on Morgoth was
>both hopeless and wrong, but I don't think the one you give was among
>them.
Also part of the mythology is that when the Age of Men came we would be acting
entirely outside the Music.
Russ<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the m.. |
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Since: Jan 31, 2004
Posts: 157
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:55 am
Post subject: Re: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the music (plan)? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 9 Aug 2004 09:46:39 -0700, gary4books.RemoveThis@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters)
posted the following:
>One can think the Elves were either mad or proud beyond belief to
>attack Morgoth under Feanor's charge. They never had a chance.
That's not what the Grey Annals say. According to several accounts of
the Fifth Battle, Maedhros' forces would have won against Morgoth if
it weren't for the treachery of men -- however, it appears that this
idea may have been ultimately rejected by Tolkien (although it's a
little unclear from CT's description of the text.)
> Of course Tolkien would
>never report that aspect of it or not in a manner that we would see as
>explicit. But it was not good against evil - just one theme against
>another.
>
>All this talk about what morals are absolute and who will support such
>ancient beliefs. When it was not really that way at all. Or was it?
It was. Melkor is absolute evil, and the fight against Melkor is a
fight vs. evil, although we cannot say that every act on the side of
"good" during that fight was a good act. Melkor is Tolkien's
equivalent to Satan (and indeed a few times in the letters and essays
he refers to Melkor as "Satan").
-Chris<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the m.. |
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Since: Aug 31, 2003
Posts: 27
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:55 am
Post subject: Re: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the music (plan)? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Chris Kern <chriskern99 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<dfsfh0d1tfmg6fsaaopjuuls64sqgamoiv RemoveThis @4ax.com>...
> On 9 Aug 2004 09:46:39 -0700, gary4books RemoveThis @yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters)
> posted the following:
>
> >One can think the Elves were either mad or proud beyond belief to
> >attack Morgoth under Feanor's charge. They never had a chance.
>
> That's not what the Grey Annals say. According to several accounts of
> the Fifth Battle, Maedhros' forces would have won against Morgoth if
> it weren't for the treachery of men -- however, it appears that this
> idea may have been ultimately rejected by Tolkien (although it's a
> little unclear from CT's description of the text.)
But you have to keep in mind that the treachery in question was as a
direct result of Melkor's plots and schemes, an extension of his
'power' just as much as his armies or his monsters. Melkor's gifts
from Eru included tremendous abilties of intellect and perception and
persuasion, beyond those of any other created being (save possibly for
Manwe). He chose to apply those gifts to analysing and understanding
other beings with the purpose of manipulating and corrupting them.
In order to overcome Melkor, the Noldor and their allies would have to
have been able to overcome both his physical powers (of self and of
possessions and armies etc) and his powers of mind and wit and
perception and deception. They never had a chance without aid from
the Valar or Divine intervention.
Shermanlee<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the m.. |
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Since: Feb 11, 2004
Posts: 59
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the music (plan)? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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the softrat <softrat.DeleteThis@pobox.com> wrote in message news:<tcffh0dsfro0016c22vavteapn431v1cst.DeleteThis@4ax.com>...
> On 9 Aug 2004 09:46:39 -0700, gary4books.DeleteThis@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters)
> wrote:
> >
> >What do you think?
>
> I think that the name is spelled 'Melkor'.
>
> the softrat
> "Honi soit qui mal y pense."
> mailto:softrat@pobox.com
Thanks!
Of course it is. A teacher once told me to never be anywhere without
a dictionary - spelling is not part of my brain. But I read very
fast. Funny.
Gary<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the m.. |
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:12 am
Post subject: Re: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the music (plan)? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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shermanlee1 RemoveThis @hotmail.com (Johnny1A) wrote in message news:<b3030854.0408092133.7eb1e95 RemoveThis @posting.google.com>...
> Chris Kern <chriskern99 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<dfsfh0d1tfmg6fsaaopjuuls64sqgamoiv RemoveThis @4ax.com>...
> > On 9 Aug 2004 09:46:39 -0700, gary4books RemoveThis @yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters)
> > posted the following:
> >
> > >One can think the Elves were either mad or proud beyond belief to
> > >attack Morgoth under Feanor's charge. They never had a chance.
> >
> > That's not what the Grey Annals say. According to several accounts of
> > the Fifth Battle, Maedhros' forces would have won against Morgoth if
> > it weren't for the treachery of men -- however, it appears that this
> > idea may have been ultimately rejected by Tolkien (although it's a
> > little unclear from CT's description of the text.)
>
> But you have to keep in mind that the treachery in question was as a
> direct result of Melkor's plots and schemes, an extension of his
> 'power' just as much as his armies or his monsters. Melkor's gifts
> from Eru included tremendous abilties of intellect and perception and
> persuasion, beyond those of any other created being (save possibly for
> Manwe). He chose to apply those gifts to analysing and understanding
> other beings with the purpose of manipulating and corrupting them.
>
> In order to overcome Melkor, the Noldor and their allies would have to
> have been able to overcome both his physical powers (of self and of
> possessions and armies etc) and his powers of mind and wit and
> perception and deception. They never had a chance without aid from
> the Valar or Divine intervention.
>
> Shermanlee
I think this is an idea that is difficult for me to express. So, let
me try again. In the story of the Elves fight against Morgoth I got
the idea it was good versus evli and all the Varlar were against
Morgoth. In the same story told as the Music of the Ainur, there was
less of good versus evil and more of theme versus counter theme. Not
can one apply the mood of the music to the actual interaction between
the valar and Morgoth? That gives more room for "textured
interaction" and perhaps even some envy of Morgoth and perhaps even
field trips of the valar into Middle Earth that were more in the tone
of Morgoth than of the "good spirits."
When I consider the themes of the music (which allow more lattitude),
I get more nuances in the Morgoth versus the Elves story, than I do
just from the Silmarilion. Perhaps there was more back and forth than
was ever known. Does anyoje else think this could be the case?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the m.. |
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Since: Jan 31, 2004
Posts: 157
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:12 am
Post subject: Re: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the music (plan)? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 16 Aug 2004 07:12:28 -0700, gary4books RemoveThis @yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters)
posted the following:
>I think this is an idea that is difficult for me to express. So, let
>me try again. In the story of the Elves fight against Morgoth I got
>the idea it was good versus evli and all the Varlar were against
>Morgoth. In the same story told as the Music of the Ainur, there was
>less of good versus evil and more of theme versus counter theme.
You have misinterpreted the Music of the Ainur -- the intent is that
Melkor is evil, not simply a 'counter theme'.
-Chris<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the m.. |
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Since: Feb 11, 2004
Posts: 59
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:12 am
Post subject: Re: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the music (plan)? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Chris Kern <chriskern99.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<qh44i096uaiigrui3cm43igvfhsgubv0ce.RemoveThis@4ax.com>...
> On 16 Aug 2004 07:12:28 -0700, gary4books.RemoveThis@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters)
> posted the following:
>
> >I think this is an idea that is difficult for me to express. So, let
> >me try again. In the story of the Elves fight against Morgoth I got
> >the idea it was good versus evli and all the Varlar were against
> >Morgoth. In the same story told as the Music of the Ainur, there was
> >less of good versus evil and more of theme versus counter theme.
>
> You have misinterpreted the Music of the Ainur -- the intent is that
> Melkor is evil, not simply a 'counter theme'.
>
> -Chris
His intent was not relevant, as I remember (without text) Eru
responded that it was all part of his design.
I may be mistaken, I grant that. But the interaction between the
Valar and Morgoth may have been more complicated than Tolkien
reported. They may have gone more his way than anyone ever knew.
Just a fancy of sorts.
Gary<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the m.. |
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Since: Feb 11, 2004
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:12 am
Post subject: Re: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the music (plan)? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Chris Kern <chriskern99.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<qh44i096uaiigrui3cm43igvfhsgubv0ce.DeleteThis@4ax.com>...
> On 16 Aug 2004 07:12:28 -0700, gary4books.DeleteThis@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters)
> posted the following:
>
> >I think this is an idea that is difficult for me to express. So, let
> >me try again. In the story of the Elves fight against Morgoth I got
> >the idea it was good versus evli and all the Varlar were against
> >Morgoth. In the same story told as the Music of the Ainur, there was
> >less of good versus evil and more of theme versus counter theme.
>
> You have misinterpreted the Music of the Ainur -- the intent is that
> Melkor is evil, not simply a 'counter theme'.
>
> -Chris
His intent was not relevant, as I remember (without text) Eru
responded that it was all part of his design.
I may be mistaken, I grant that. But the interaction between the
Valar and Morgoth may have been more complicated than Tolkien
reported. They may have gone more his way than anyone ever knew.
Just a fancy of sorts.
Gary<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the m.. |
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Since: Feb 11, 2004
Posts: 59
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:12 am
Post subject: Re: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the music (plan)? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Chris Kern <chriskern99.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<qh44i096uaiigrui3cm43igvfhsgubv0ce.RemoveThis@4ax.com>...
> On 16 Aug 2004 07:12:28 -0700, gary4books.RemoveThis@yahoo.com (Gary E. Masters)
> posted the following:
>
> >I think this is an idea that is difficult for me to express. So, let
> >me try again. In the story of the Elves fight against Morgoth I got
> >the idea it was good versus evli and all the Varlar were against
> >Morgoth. In the same story told as the Music of the Ainur, there was
> >less of good versus evil and more of theme versus counter theme.
>
> You have misinterpreted the Music of the Ainur -- the intent is that
> Melkor is evil, not simply a 'counter theme'.
>
> -Chris
His intent was not relevant, as I remember (without text) Eru
responded that it was all part of his design.
I may be mistaken, I grant that. But the interaction between the
Valar and Morgoth may have been more complicated than Tolkien
reported. They may have gone more his way than anyone ever knew.
Just a fancy of sorts.
Gary<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the m.. |
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Since: Jan 31, 2004
Posts: 157
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:16 am
Post subject: Tolkien's later conception of the Fifth Battle (was Re: Were the Elves mad to at [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 9 Aug 2004 22:33:38 -0700, shermanlee1.RemoveThis@hotmail.com (Johnny1A)
posted the following:
>Chris Kern <chriskern99.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<dfsfh0d1tfmg6fsaaopjuuls64sqgamoiv.RemoveThis@4ax.com>...
>> That's not what the Grey Annals say. According to several accounts of
>> the Fifth Battle, Maedhros' forces would have won against Morgoth if
>> it weren't for the treachery of men -- however, it appears that this
>> idea may have been ultimately rejected by Tolkien (although it's a
>> little unclear from CT's description of the text.)
>
>But you have to keep in mind that the treachery in question was as a
>direct result of Melkor's plots and schemes, an extension of his
>'power' just as much as his armies or his monsters.
I wonder whether Tolkien didn't see some problem with the Fifth Battle
story himself.
In "War of the Jewels", Christopher Tolkien prints a version of the
Fifth Battle story that is probably later than the one in the Grey
Annals (and thus the published Silmarillion). In this version, the
entire story of the "machinations of Uldor" and the treachery of men
is removed, as is (apparently) the passage about the people almost
winning the battle. Maedhros' Alliance fares much worse in this later
version than it does in the early one.
I have remarked before how incredible I find it that the Fifth Battle
could be such a near-victory for the Elves in such a short time,
compared with the 50-year "last battle" that takes place only a few
hundred years later.
I wonder if the change Tolkien made to the Fifth Battle story was to
address either of these points? Perhaps he felt that Maedhros'
alliance should not have been able to fare as well against Morgoth as
he initially portrayed it, or that the near-victory of the "good guys"
was too unbelievable in comparison to the difficulty of the final
battle.
-Chris<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the m.. |
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:16 am
Post subject: Re: Tolkien's later conception of the Fifth Battle (was Re: Were the Elves mad t [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Chris Kern <chriskern99 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<8j44i0tnpi8hgj3qv027tjvg70eofhf4sg RemoveThis @4ax.com>...
> On 9 Aug 2004 22:33:38 -0700, shermanlee1 RemoveThis @hotmail.com (Johnny1A)
> posted the following:
>
> >Chris Kern <chriskern99 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<dfsfh0d1tfmg6fsaaopjuuls64sqgamoiv RemoveThis @4ax.com>...
>
> >> That's not what the Grey Annals say. According to several accounts of
> >> the Fifth Battle, Maedhros' forces would have won against Morgoth if
> >> it weren't for the treachery of men -- however, it appears that this
> >> idea may have been ultimately rejected by Tolkien (although it's a
> >> little unclear from CT's description of the text.)
> >
> >But you have to keep in mind that the treachery in question was as a
> >direct result of Melkor's plots and schemes, an extension of his
> >'power' just as much as his armies or his monsters.
>
> I wonder whether Tolkien didn't see some problem with the Fifth Battle
> story himself.
>
> In "War of the Jewels", Christopher Tolkien prints a version of the
> Fifth Battle story that is probably later than the one in the Grey
> Annals (and thus the published Silmarillion). In this version, the
> entire story of the "machinations of Uldor" and the treachery of men
> is removed, as is (apparently) the passage about the people almost
> winning the battle. Maedhros' Alliance fares much worse in this later
> version than it does in the early one.
>
> I have remarked before how incredible I find it that the Fifth Battle
> could be such a near-victory for the Elves in such a short time,
> compared with the 50-year "last battle" that takes place only a few
> hundred years later.
>
> I wonder if the change Tolkien made to the Fifth Battle story was to
> address either of these points? Perhaps he felt that Maedhros'
> alliance should not have been able to fare as well against Morgoth as
> he initially portrayed it, or that the near-victory of the "good guys"
> was too unbelievable in comparison to the difficulty of the final
> battle.
>
> -Chris
I once read a quote from a high school foot ball coach, who said he
wanted to beat his rival by one point. "That way he will think all
the rest of the year about how he could have won." If one gets beat
by a hundred points, there is no second thoughts.
Perhaps Morgoth had the same concept and sent out only enough to win.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Were the Elves mad to attack Morgoth or just part of the m.. |
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