The West

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:43:57 GMT,
Robert H. Grant <nospam.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> When the Elves sailed to the West - what became of them? And what became of
> the West?

The WEst is the Undying Lands, where the Valar (the POwers) dwell. Nothing
happened to the West, it was still there, and there had been Elves there
since long before the rising of the Sun and Moon.

If you want more detail than that, read the Silmarillion. You're
essentially asking a question that would require a retelling of the first
few chapters, and I, for one, could never do Tolkien justice in that regard.

--
Aaron Clausen

taocow.RemoveThis@alberni.net
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

"Robert H. Grant" <nospam.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:x0Dbb.117060$bo1.25345@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> When the Elves sailed to the West - what became of them? And what became of
> the West?

Your question pretty much boils down to "What is this 'West' people
are referring to".

The answer's too complicated to easily give here - everything's
explained fully in "The Silmarillion". For now let us say that it's
a different continent which has been removed from "the circles
of the world" and as such is nowdays inaccessible to mortals -
only elven ships could still reach it.

But as I said, for a full explanation read "The Silmarillion".

Aris Katsaris
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

"AC" <taocow.RemoveThis@alberni.net> wrote in message
news:slrnbmu54c.qsv.taocow@clausen.alberni.net...
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:43:57 GMT,
> Robert H. Grant <nospam.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > When the Elves sailed to the West - what became of them? And what became
of
> > the West?
>
> The WEst is the Undying Lands, where the Valar (the POwers) dwell.
Nothing
> happened to the West, it was still there, and there had been Elves there
> since long before the rising of the Sun and Moon.

It should be noted that elven ships do not actually reach Aman the Blessed,
their continent; they are obliged to stop at the Lonely Island of Eressea
within sight of it. After the time of Ar-Pharazon, no one got farther than
that.

Tsar Parmathule
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Robert H. Grant wrote:

> When the Elves sailed to the West - what became of them?

They lived happily ever after - or until the End of the World, anyway...

> And what became of the West?

Still the same. The West. Houses of the Holy. Hallowed ground. All of
that and more. Until the End of the World, or so Tolkien tells us.



M.
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"A Tsar Is Born" <AtsarisbornNoSpam DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:VpIbb.13751$Uv2.10674@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
>
> "AC" <taocow DeleteThis @alberni.net> wrote in message
> news:slrnbmu54c.qsv.taocow@clausen.alberni.net...
> > On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:43:57 GMT,
> > Robert H. Grant <nospam DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > When the Elves sailed to the West - what became of them? And what became
> of
> > > the West?
> >
> > The WEst is the Undying Lands, where the Valar (the POwers) dwell.
> Nothing
> > happened to the West, it was still there, and there had been Elves there
> > since long before the rising of the Sun and Moon.
>
> It should be noted that elven ships do not actually reach Aman the Blessed,
> their continent; they are obliged to stop at the Lonely Island of Eressea
> within sight of it. After the time of Ar-Pharazon, no one got farther than
> that.

Where do you get this? I believe it's wrong, and that though *usually*
the elves returning from Middle-earth preferred to stay at Tol Eressea
they were allowed to go all the way to Valinor if they wanted to.

Even Mortal Men may have reached Aman:

"And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning
mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace
or favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen
the face of the world sink below them, and so had come to the lamplit
quays of Avallone, or verily to the last beaches on the margin of Aman,
and there had looked upon the White Mountain, dreadful and beautiful,
before they died."

Aris Katsaris
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:08:14 +0100, None <none.TakeThisOut@none.com> wrote:

>Robert H. Grant wrote:
>
>> When the Elves sailed to the West - what became of them?
>
>They lived happily ever after - or until the End of the World, anyway...
>
>> And what became of the West?
>
>Still the same. The West. Houses of the Holy. Hallowed ground. All of
>that and more. Until the End of the World, or so Tolkien tells us.

A friend and I have a small wager on whether or not Frodo's ship will
disappear hull-down over the horizon at the end of the ROTK film.


--
Alison
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

"Aris Katsaris" <katsaris.DeleteThis@otenet.gr> wrote in message
news:bkno2a$kjq$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
>
> "A Tsar Is Born" <AtsarisbornNoSpam.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:VpIbb.13751$Uv2.10674@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
> >
> > "AC" <taocow.DeleteThis@alberni.net> wrote in message
> > news:slrnbmu54c.qsv.taocow@clausen.alberni.net...
> > > On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:43:57 GMT,
> > > Robert H. Grant <nospam.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > When the Elves sailed to the West - what became of them? And
what became
> > of
> > > > the West?
> > >
> > > The WEst is the Undying Lands, where the Valar (the POwers) dwell.
> > Nothing
> > > happened to the West, it was still there, and there had been Elves
there
> > > since long before the rising of the Sun and Moon.
> >
> > It should be noted that elven ships do not actually reach Aman the
Blessed,
> > their continent; they are obliged to stop at the Lonely Island of
Eressea
> > within sight of it. After the time of Ar-Pharazon, no one got
farther than
> > that.
>
> Where do you get this? I believe it's wrong, and that though *usually*
> the elves returning from Middle-earth preferred to stay at Tol Eressea
> they were allowed to go all the way to Valinor if they wanted to.
>
> Even Mortal Men may have reached Aman:
>
> "And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning
> mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace
> or favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen
> the face of the world sink below them, and so had come to the lamplit
> quays of Avallone, or verily to the last beaches on the margin of
Aman,
> and there had looked upon the White Mountain, dreadful and beautiful,
> before they died."

I agree. It seems to be the consensus here, but I have yet to see
anything in Tolkien's writings that support Tsar's notion. Even
Galadriel's song speaks of returning to specifically, Valinor.
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

> I agree. It seems to be the consensus here, but I have yet to see
> anything in Tolkien's writings that support Tsar's notion. Even
> Galadriel's song speaks of returning to specifically, Valinor.

somehwere jrrt suggested that exiles like galadriel could return to tol eressa
but they might not be permitted into valinor itself
perhaps calcirya would be closed to them
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

"Alison" <news.poster.RemoveThis@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:ul2vmv86bpg17rb8snrmq5j2l6ge3bcl1d@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:08:14 +0100, None <none.RemoveThis@none.com> wrote:
>
> >Robert H. Grant wrote:
> >
> >> When the Elves sailed to the West - what became of them?
> >
> >They lived happily ever after - or until the End of the World,
anyway...
> >
> >> And what became of the West?
> >
> >Still the same. The West. Houses of the Holy. Hallowed ground. All of
> >that and more. Until the End of the World, or so Tolkien tells us.
>
> A friend and I have a small wager on whether or not Frodo's ship will
> disappear hull-down over the horizon at the end of the ROTK film.

Hull down? As opposed to capsizing?
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges <mair_fheal.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
:> I agree. It seems to be the consensus here, but I have yet to see
:> anything in Tolkien's writings that support Tsar's notion. Even
:> Galadriel's song speaks of returning to specifically, Valinor.

: somehwere jrrt suggested that exiles like galadriel could return to tol eressa
: but they might not be permitted into valinor itself
: perhaps calcirya would be closed to them

From "History of Galadriel and Celeborn"
"Of Finarfin's children I am the last. But my heart is
still proud. What wrong did the golden house of Finarfin
do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content
with an isle in the sea whose native was Aman the Blessed?
Here I am mightier."
This sounds like Galadriel expected to be stuck on Tol Eressea.
I believe there are other passages which say a similar thing,
but I cannot think of any at the moment.

Stephen
 >> Stay informed about: The West 

Aris Katsaris said:
{snip}
> Even Mortal Men may have reached Aman:
>
> "And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning
> mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace
> or favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen
> the face of the world sink below them, and so had come to the lamplit
> quays of Avallone, or verily to the last beaches on the margin of Aman,
> and there had looked upon the White Mountain, dreadful and beautiful,
> before they died."

Of course a problem with such tales is that there's absolutely no way that
the humans of ME who told the tales could have heard of such events.




||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||
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Graham Lockwood wrote:
>
> Of course a problem with such tales is that there's absolutely no way that
> the humans of ME who told the tales could have heard of such events.

Elves could have spread the story.

Bob Kolker
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On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 02:07:46 GMT, "Bill O'Meally"
<OMeallyMD.DeleteThis@wise.rr.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>"Alison" <news.poster.DeleteThis@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>news:ul2vmv86bpg17rb8snrmq5j2l6ge3bcl1d@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:08:14 +0100, None <none.DeleteThis@none.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Robert H. Grant wrote:
>> >
>> >> When the Elves sailed to the West - what became of them?
>> >
>> >They lived happily ever after - or until the End of the World,
>anyway...
>> >
>> >> And what became of the West?
>> >
>> >Still the same. The West. Houses of the Holy. Hallowed ground. All of
>> >that and more. Until the End of the World, or so Tolkien tells us.
>>
>> A friend and I have a small wager on whether or not Frodo's ship will
>> disappear hull-down over the horizon at the end of the ROTK film.
>
>Hull down? As opposed to capsizing?

No, hull-down as in disappearing over the edge of the horizon of a
curved world. This was the first major clue to the ancients that the
earth is a globe, not a plane. On a curved world, the hull of a ship
disappears while its superstructure or masts are still visible. On a
flat world, the whole of the ship would be visible on the horizon
until it simply became too small to see.

Tolkien was very clear (in the Letters, I believe) that ships heading
for Valinor in the Third Age would be on the "straight path" and would
appear to an observer on land to be "dwindling" in the distance,
rather than disappearing over the horizon as ships normally would.


--
Alison
 >> Stay informed about: The West